greg4012 wrote: Miami fans have spent how long talking about acquiring a floor spacing/rim protecting center as if that’s an easily acquirable piece? 10 years? More?
You named some truly subpar players, some of which are nothing more than backup centers on their last legs. Let’s be real here. There’s no reasonable means to acquire Myles Turner. Quick runthru those names:
Myles Turner - going to be re-signed by Indy for a BAG. 0% chance Steven Adams - averaged 13 mpg this season (4 ppg, 5 rpg, 1 apg, 0.5 bpg, 0 3pa per game); will be 32 years old Brook Lopez - will be 37 years old; averaged 13 ppg, 5 rpg (yikes), 1.8 apg, 1.9 bpg (nice), 4.7 3pa per game. Basically banking on one decent season in a part time role before he turns to complete dust Clint Capela - becoming a part time player due to losing athleticism. 0 3pa per game. Kel'el as a rookie matched or exceeded his per36 numbers and is trending in the opposite direction. Will likely be signed by LA. Larry Nance Jr - not a center. Will be 33 years old after playing in 24 total games last season.
The KD convo needs to be about acquiring him while maintaining a core that can legitimately compete, esp if it involves giving away assets that set up Miamis future.
Who is more replaceable between Ware and KD? Easily Ware. Is the hypothetical scenario where all it will cost is Ware? If so, I can get behind that.
Who has more years of value to offer Miami between Ware and KD?
Do one of Ware or KD come with a guarantee of providing no additional value in the near future?
Expiration dates matter. If Miami is committing to a KD window, then Miami can’t also tank that KD window while also giving away future draft capital.
Just a friendly reminder that Ware was irrelevant in Miami's short playoff stint and, outside of a few good outings, really didn't move the needle for Miami in the regular season. Simply put, Ware doesn't move the needle for Miami.
If you think Ware has a really high ceiling, then I don't blame you for not wanting to include him in a Durant trade. My take is all of Miami's young players have pretty low ceilings and could easily be replaced by veteran FAs. Yes, that "sacrifices" Miami's "future", but I don't see Jovic, Jaquez, or Ware as being central to Miami becoming a contender now or down the line. So I am completely ok trading all of them if needed (not necessarily in a single deal for Durant).
Maybe I am wrong, but I think if Miami gets Durant, Westbrook likely follows, and perhaps Brook Lopez would consider signing with Miami versus staying in Milwaukee.
Lopez / Love Bam / K Anderson Durant / Highsmith / Bruce Brown (?) Herro / Burks (?) Westbrook / Mitchell (?)
I can understand why we see things differently bc you think Ware has a "low ceiling". I'm happy to just agree that we see it completely differently and orient ourselves to thresholds for KD trade accordingly.
You're gonna be proven wrong on that over time tho.
Ware getting the playoff experience (and having his deer in the headlights moment to learn from) is actually something I see as a clear positive. He got better oriented over the course of the playoffs. This is the time in his career where advancements are most accelerated. The more physical gifts a young NBA prospect possesses, the greater the rate of potential progress.
Edit: the build you mentioned can have a chance for 1 season if each of the 3 starters over age 35 remain healthy through a playoff run, but man it's really hard to bank on that while also being neutral or deficient athletically at every position except PF and kinda PG?
I definitely hope I am wrong if Miami keeps Ware!****
Miami trading for Durant means, at best, a 3-year window but likely a 2-year window. Westbrick, Lopez, Chris Paul...etc those kind of guys fit that window. If Miami for some reason decided to try to bring in DeRozan, he'd fit that 2-3 year window. It has its risks, but so does banking on Ware/Jovic/JJJ to become legit NBA starters, let alone good enough to make Miami a contender.
2-3 years is long enough for Miami to bring in 1-2 picks and develop some undrafted guys to start to rebuild the development program. No idea where Christopher, Dru Smith...etc are in their development.
I think a Durant trade is worth the gamble, but I completely get people who think he is too old and that Miami will struggle to build a complete team around him.
**** edit: I mean, don't forget about all the previous young'ns/projects these boards were crazy over...Winslow, KZ Okpala, Yurtseven, Whiteside...etc.
I mean this is done right? They’re just trying to squeeze another asset or 2 out of us I’m guessing?
This is correct. This has been my research and due diligence since this all started. This is why i’ve been so damn confident in our chances here. My goal is always to put myself in the other teams shoes and see what the true objective is. There financial situation is a disaster and the owner has been bleeding money. The rich don’t stay rich throwing away 200 million in tax money for a poor product
SA37 wrote: Just a friendly reminder that Ware was irrelevant in Miami's short playoff stint and, outside of a few good outings, really didn't move the needle for Miami in the regular season. Simply put, Ware doesn't move the needle for Miami.
If you think Ware has a really high ceiling, then I don't blame you for not wanting to include him in a Durant trade. My take is all of Miami's young players have pretty low ceilings and could easily be replaced by veteran FAs. Yes, that "sacrifices" Miami's "future", but I don't see Jovic, Jaquez, or Ware as being central to Miami becoming a contender now or down the line. So I am completely ok trading all of them if needed (not necessarily in a single deal for Durant).
Maybe I am wrong, but I think if Miami gets Durant, Westbrook likely follows, and perhaps Brook Lopez would consider signing with Miami versus staying in Milwaukee.
Lopez / Love Bam / K Anderson Durant / Highsmith / Bruce Brown (?) Herro / Burks (?) Westbrook / Mitchell (?)
I can understand why we see things differently bc you think Ware has a "low ceiling". I'm happy to just agree that we see it completely differently and orient ourselves to thresholds for KD trade accordingly.
You're gonna be proven wrong on that over time tho.
Ware getting the playoff experience (and having his deer in the headlights moment to learn from) is actually something I see as a clear positive. He got better oriented over the course of the playoffs. This is the time in his career where advancements are most accelerated. The more physical gifts a young NBA prospect possesses, the greater the rate of potential progress.
Edit: the build you mentioned can have a chance for 1 season if each of the 3 starters over age 35 remain healthy through a playoff run, but man it's really hard to bank on that while also being neutral or deficient athletically at every position except PF and kinda PG?
I definitely hope I am wrong if Miami keeps Ware!****
Miami trading for Durant means, at best, a 3-year window but likely a 2-year window. Westbrick, Lopez, Chris Paul...etc those kind of guys fit that window. If Miami for some reason decided to try to bring in DeRozan, he'd fit that 2-3 year window. It has its risks, but so does banking on Ware/Jovic/JJJ to become legit NBA starters, let alone good enough to make Miami a contender.
2-3 years is long enough for Miami to bring in 1-2 picks and develop some undrafted guys to start to rebuild the development program. No idea where Christopher, Dru Smith...etc are in their development.
I think a Durant trade is worth the gamble, but I completely get people who think he is too old and that Miami will struggle to build a complete team around him.
**** edit: I mean, don't forget about all the previous young'ns/projects these boards were crazy over...Winslow, KZ Okpala, Yurtseven, Whiteside...etc.
I def don't believe the aggregated opinions of the board at large should be the barometer for wisdom in NBA transactions and roster building lol.
I'm at peace with the idea of trading Jovic and Jaquez and 1 (MAAAYYYBBEEE 2) first round picks to commit to the next 2 years of a KD build. I just believe there's a threshold where giving up Ware (easily the highest upside of the group and amazing fit to bolster what almost always wins in the NBA--dynamic frontcourts) is too much IN ADDITION to the above. If Miami ships out all positive contributors but Bam and Herro, then my concern is that the 2-year KD window will consist of year 1 not having enough bc of all the constraints that exist in roster building. Year 2 Miami adds a little more, but just wasted the more likely of the 2 seasons to get the best out of KD. It just becomes a REALLY tricky exercise in threading the needle.
I mean this is done right? They’re just trying to squeeze another asset or 2 out of us I’m guessing?
This is correct. This has been my research and due diligence since this all started. This is why i’ve been so damn confident in our chances here. My goal is always to put myself in the other teams shoes and see what the true objective is. There financial situation is a disaster and the owner has been bleeding money. The rich don’t stay rich throwing away 200 million in tax money for a poor product
Phoenix has to get under the tax with this trade, which is why regardless of where Durant ends up, Brooklyn will likely be involved.
According to ESPN, Miami has to send out more than Durant's salary, so another team will have to eat one of Miami's players going out.
It's hard to see how Minnesota can accomplish this while still getting Phoenix enough in return. I believe the only pick Minnesota can trade is #17 and the only decent asset they have is Dillingham. Ostensibly, one of those would have to go to a team eating Conley's deal or taking DDV.
I mean this is done right? They’re just trying to squeeze another asset or 2 out of us I’m guessing?
This is correct. This has been my research and due diligence since this all started. This is why i’ve been so damn confident in our chances here. My goal is always to put myself in the other teams shoes and see what the true objective is. There financial situation is a disaster and the owner has been bleeding money. The rich don’t stay rich throwing away 200 million in tax money for a poor product
Let’s wrap it up this weekend. We need to sit down for a few weeks and get a gameplan going for commentary trades and signings this summer. We need to go into free agency with KD on the roster and see what higher level role players who are stuck taking the minimum that will bring in. We need to find bargains on some scrappy 3 and D guys for the vet minimum and we need to continue to be active on trade talks for higher level guys that fit our roster. If you’re going to go in on a 3 year window then let’s fully commit to it.
greg4012 wrote: No one disagrees that Dragic had a great playoff run and was critically important to the team in a TEAM game. You overreached and are trying to justify it. The board's favorite past time.
Goran had 2 games where he played less than 30 minutes--game 1 of finals where he got injured (15 minutes) and game 6 where he came back from injury too early (19 minutes)
Bam had 1 game where he played less than 30 minutes--game 1 of finals where he got injured (21 minutes). He came back from injury for games 5 and 6.
Overreach to say the guy who led an Eastern Conference champion in scoring before he got hurt was the 2nd best player. Sure. Bam is a great advanced stat guy. Defensive first guys usually are. No one was asking Bam to carry the load of keeping that offense afloat. The ball wasn't in his hands in tight games. He wasn't asked to start offense or be a willing shooter when the ball came to him down the stretch. Roller, lob threat and some pick and pop and great defense. This isn't an attack on Bam. He simply wasn't the player he is now five years ago. There was reason a Jimmy Butler had to go god mode in a couple of Finals games. And it wasn't because Bam had the shoulder injury. If they gave out the award then Goran had great case for conference finals MVP and probably would've won it
LOL at casually dismissing EVERY stat that tracks impact as if they are all the same and saying "defensive first guys" usually are favored by advanced stats which is PATENTLY FALSE.
It might not be an attack on Bam, but it's a clear display of lack of understanding as to how teams win in the NBA.
Please tell me more about how Offensive Rating, Offensive Box Plus Minus, Offensive Win Shares, Win Shares and Value Over Replacement Players are advanced stats that usually favor "defensive first guys". I'm ready to learn.
We just saw how teams win in the playoffs win against good teams in big spots last night. The offensive player with ball in his hands took over. None of OKC's advanced stats and one of the best historical teams we've seen over the last 20 years mattered when they were down multiple possession in the 4th quarter with the season on the line. All of the sudden OKC's statistical dominance over the course of season meant quite a bit less.
The best offensive player in the world took over. Chet rebounded and did well when the Pacers mismatched hunted down the stretch. If SGA doesn't make all the plays on the other end their down 3-1. Chet's 14pts 15 rebs and great defense(sound familiar?)was key. So yes Bam was and continues to remain super important.
Bam and what he does puts you in position but it isn't enough because he isn't enough on offense. The Celtics had Robert Williams in 22 and 23. The Bucks had Brook Lopez. OKC has Chet. Minny has Gobert. Knicks have when healthy Mitchell Robinson. Generally good teams have good defensive big men. Bam's offensive contributions put him a tier above those guys.
fincane30 wrote: Overreach to say the guy who led an Eastern Conference champion in scoring before he got hurt was the 2nd best player. Sure. Bam is a great advanced stat guy. Defensive first guys usually are. No one was asking Bam to carry the load of keeping that offense afloat. The ball wasn't in his hands in tight games. He wasn't asked to start offense or be a willing shooter when the ball came to him down the stretch. Roller, lob threat and some pick and pop and great defense. This isn't an attack on Bam. He simply wasn't the player he is now five years ago. There was reason a Jimmy Butler had to go god mode in a couple of Finals games. And it wasn't because Bam had the shoulder injury. If they gave out the award then Goran had great case for conference finals MVP and probably would've won it
LOL at casually dismissing EVERY stat that tracks impact as if they are all the same and saying "defensive first guys" usually are favored by advanced stats which is PATENTLY FALSE.
It might not be an attack on Bam, but it's a clear display of lack of understanding as to how teams win in the NBA.
Please tell me more about how Offensive Rating, Offensive Box Plus Minus, Offensive Win Shares, Win Shares and Value Over Replacement Players are advanced stats that usually favor "defensive first guys". I'm ready to learn.
We just saw how teams win in the playoffs win against good teams in big spots last night. The offensive player with ball in his hands took over. None of OKC's advanced stats and one of the best historical teams we've seen over the last 20 years mattered when they were down multiple possession in the 4th quarter with the season on the line. All of the sudden OKC's statistical dominance over the course of season meant quite a bit less.
The best offensive player in the world took over. Chet rebounded and did well when the Pacers mismatched hunted down the stretch. If SGA doesn't make all the plays on the other end their down 3-1. Chet's 14pts 15 rebs and great defense(sound familiar?)was key. So yes Bam was and continues to remain super important.
Bam and what he does puts you in position but it isn't enough because he isn't enough on offense. The Celtics had Robert Williams in 22 and 23. The Bucks had Brook Lopez. OKC has Chet. Minny has Gobert. Knicks have when healthy Mitchell Robinson. Generally good teams have good defensive big men. Bam's offensive contributions put him a tier above those guys.
Robert Horry most valuable player of all time?
Conveniently completely ignored the multitude of points made proving the many ways in which you've been wrong so far.
I accept that you watch the game primarily for on-ball work and ignore other impact (despite it being more important than you give it credit). I don't really care to waste more time on this. I know 2 things:
greg4012 wrote: I can understand why we see things differently bc you think Ware has a "low ceiling". I'm happy to just agree that we see it completely differently and orient ourselves to thresholds for KD trade accordingly.
You're gonna be proven wrong on that over time tho.
Ware getting the playoff experience (and having his deer in the headlights moment to learn from) is actually something I see as a clear positive. He got better oriented over the course of the playoffs. This is the time in his career where advancements are most accelerated. The more physical gifts a young NBA prospect possesses, the greater the rate of potential progress.
Edit: the build you mentioned can have a chance for 1 season if each of the 3 starters over age 35 remain healthy through a playoff run, but man it's really hard to bank on that while also being neutral or deficient athletically at every position except PF and kinda PG?
I definitely hope I am wrong if Miami keeps Ware!****
Miami trading for Durant means, at best, a 3-year window but likely a 2-year window. Westbrick, Lopez, Chris Paul...etc those kind of guys fit that window. If Miami for some reason decided to try to bring in DeRozan, he'd fit that 2-3 year window. It has its risks, but so does banking on Ware/Jovic/JJJ to become legit NBA starters, let alone good enough to make Miami a contender.
2-3 years is long enough for Miami to bring in 1-2 picks and develop some undrafted guys to start to rebuild the development program. No idea where Christopher, Dru Smith...etc are in their development.
I think a Durant trade is worth the gamble, but I completely get people who think he is too old and that Miami will struggle to build a complete team around him.
**** edit: I mean, don't forget about all the previous young'ns/projects these boards were crazy over...Winslow, KZ Okpala, Yurtseven, Whiteside...etc.
I def don't believe the aggregated opinions of the board at large should be the barometer for wisdom in NBA transactions and roster building lol.
I'm at peace with the idea of trading Jovic and Jaquez and 1 (MAAAYYYBBEEE 2) first round picks to commit to the next 2 years of a KD build. I just believe there's a threshold where giving up Ware (easily the highest upside of the group and amazing fit to bolster what almost always wins in the NBA--dynamic frontcourts) is too much IN ADDITION to the above. If Miami ships out all positive contributors but Bam and Herro, then my concern is that the 2-year KD window will consist of year 1 not having enough bc of all the constraints that exist in roster building. Year 2 Miami adds a little more, but just wasted the more likely of the 2 seasons to get the best out of KD. It just becomes a REALLY tricky exercise in threading the needle.
Well, there are a lot -- A LOT -- of people on here who would like to see Miami roll out a G-league team so the young'ns can get minutes.
As I said previously, if Ware is outgoing, I think Miami has to insist Wiggins is not included. So Robinson, Rozier, Ware, K Anderson, and then maybe one more asset, like a pick swap. With Wiggins, Jaquez, Jovic, and whatever future picks Miami can send out, Miami would be able to either keep those guys or send them out in a separate deal -- unless it becomes a 3-4 team deal with more players coming in for Miami.
So, yeah, I agree we can't give up the farm to get Durant, but I don't see the FO doing something rash like that.
fincane30 wrote: Overreach to say the guy who led an Eastern Conference champion in scoring before he got hurt was the 2nd best player. Sure. Bam is a great advanced stat guy. Defensive first guys usually are. No one was asking Bam to carry the load of keeping that offense afloat. The ball wasn't in his hands in tight games. He wasn't asked to start offense or be a willing shooter when the ball came to him down the stretch. Roller, lob threat and some pick and pop and great defense. This isn't an attack on Bam. He simply wasn't the player he is now five years ago. There was reason a Jimmy Butler had to go god mode in a couple of Finals games. And it wasn't because Bam had the shoulder injury. If they gave out the award then Goran had great case for conference finals MVP and probably would've won it
LOL at casually dismissing EVERY stat that tracks impact as if they are all the same and saying "defensive first guys" usually are favored by advanced stats which is PATENTLY FALSE.
It might not be an attack on Bam, but it's a clear display of lack of understanding as to how teams win in the NBA.
Please tell me more about how Offensive Rating, Offensive Box Plus Minus, Offensive Win Shares, Win Shares and Value Over Replacement Players are advanced stats that usually favor "defensive first guys". I'm ready to learn.
We just saw how teams win in the playoffs win against good teams in big spots last night. The offensive player with ball in his hands took over. None of OKC's advanced stats and one of the best historical teams we've seen over the last 20 years mattered when they were down multiple possession in the 4th quarter with the season on the line. All of the sudden OKC's statistical dominance over the course of season meant quite a bit less.
The best offensive player in the world took over. Chet rebounded and did well when the Pacers mismatched hunted down the stretch. If SGA doesn't make all the plays on the other end their down 3-1. Chet's 14pts 15 rebs and great defense(sound familiar?)was key. So yes Bam was and continues to remain super important.
Bam and what he does puts you in position but it isn't enough because he isn't enough on offense. The Celtics had Robert Williams in 22 and 23. The Bucks had Brook Lopez. OKC has Chet. Minny has Gobert. Knicks have when healthy Mitchell Robinson. Generally good teams have good defensive big men. Bam's offensive contributions put him a tier above those guys.
Dragic isn’t SGA and again, only averaged 1 more point than Bam. Bam had the better playoff performances of the 2 as well
Is Phoenix ok with Ware being the only asset they get in addition to maybe salary cap relief? If Miami trades Ware are they going to be super aggressive with the rest of the assets to build the best team they possibly can for this 3 year window?
3ammy3uck3ts wrote:Is Phoenix ok with Ware being the only asset they get in addition to maybe salary cap relief? If Miami trades Ware are they going to be super aggressive with the rest of the assets to build the best team they possibly can for this 3 year window?
If both answers are yes then cool, go for it.
This is the conversation i was trying to bring up yesterday. It’s a tough call. No other teams are offering there top prospects. Why should we? Suns should consider themselves lucky to be getting Jovic and JJJ with 20th pick.
We know LA is desperate on the market for a Center. I'm sure there are others. I expect old man Brook Lopez to have suitors and get more money than he prob should (won't age well if it's a multi-year deal). Hell, I bet Al Horford can still get more than the vet min this offseason if hes cool to leave Boston.
3ammy3uck3ts wrote:Is Phoenix ok with Ware being the only asset they get in addition to maybe salary cap relief? If Miami trades Ware are they going to be super aggressive with the rest of the assets to build the best team they possibly can for this 3 year window?
If both answers are yes then cool, go for it.
This is the conversation i was trying to bring up yesterday. It’s a tough call. No other teams are offering there top prospects. Why should we? Suns should consider themselves lucky to be getting Jovic and JJJ with 20th pick.
It's a valid conversation to consider. I just believe the roster build of Miami will be lesser keeping Wiggins than keeping Ware.
