Wade can't carry a team any better than the rest

[insfo]

Heres the thing. If you want to criticize Wade by all means do so. There seem to be a lot of things that he can do better.

But please ... why even bring a comparison with others and about how they might perform on this team ?

If you have to do so, then please think of player X as coming of 2 major surgeries one of which was an injury that was reportedly as bad as any shoulder injury seen by team doctors, 6 months off the court etc. before you decide that they would instantly have won us games.

I actually blame the heat management & Wade for 1 thing - not having had his surgeries immediately last year. He would have had enough time to rehab and we might all have been singing a different tune right now.

[dflash3]

Opposing teams won't care that Wade came off two surgeries and has a supporting cast literally consisting of D-League talent, since they play to win. They aren't going to give Wade a pass, and make it any easier on him to compensate for the inadequate help he is getting.

Wade has to make the best of the situation he is in. The problem starts with his mentality, since too often I see him forcing passes when he should be forcing up shots.

Trying to involve his teammates is a nice unselfish concept, but he has to realize he needs to start individually forcing the issue on offense. He needs to realize that his teammates are never going to consistently contribute.

He has to start being a lot more selfish and take more than 20 shots per game for the team to actually have a chance instead of wasting offensive possessions on his teammates. It goes against the team oriented style of play Wade is used to, but he has to overlook it with the lack of talent surrounding him.

However, people need to understand that while losing is painful to endure it's the best situation for the Heat. The supporting cast is far to weak for the Heat to win a play off series. And while some people complain that the Heat should have won more than 8 games than now the numbers of games they win simply doesn't matter. Whether they had won 10 or 15 by now the season is going nowhere and are meaningless.

[dflash3]

Wade has always been a team player, so this season isn't going to be a revelation that he needs to stop being selfish and can't do it alone. He knew from the start that it would take the help of his teammates to succeed ever since he entered the league.

What Wade needs to realize from this season is that there are times when it is acceptable to be selfish and go away from his teammates. There is a time and place when its good to play within the flow of the offense, but when the situation calls for him to step up Wade needs to accept the challenge.

I still have yet to see Wade exert himself on the offensive end the way Kobe has done this season. For instance, the game where he scored 48 points he didn't even attempt a single shot during OT. He seems too passive at times with just letting his teammates run the show.

[PDXKnight]

I like you better when you were MIA

we know that Wade is bad off physically, the team is utter garbage and you still feel the need to start a thread to crap on the guy who hand delivered a title 18 months ago?

Exactly what I was thinking. You said that AI, Lebron, and Kobe would carry the Heat better but the irony is that Wade has already accomplished more than 2/3 of them and couuntless others in the league that have still gone without winning a title. Granted, the heat haven't lived up to what was expected of them this season but 1)You guys got a title out of this and 2) the Heat have the advantage of already having a young superstar in Wade to build around and with the addition of a high draft pick, your team will look a lot better than it's looking right now.

[CoolD]

The only thing that gets me about Wade, and the whole freaking team to add. Is the they don't play hard in defense.

I think at one point in the season, the guys just gave up on Riles.

This guys show no heart. Everyone in the team.

I think Wade needs to improve his mental game, he is still a young guy, and all the commercials have probably got to his head, also Wade thinks fans will like him just because he is nice, am not that type of fan though.

[David Robinson]

Ok so we are a horrible team this year.

But also, we are now seeing Wade is not any better than Kobe, Lebron, AI or anybody else in the league at carrying a team all by himself. Lebron and AI took teams to the finals with not that much more than what the Heat have.

I can't imagine Kobe, AI or Lebron ever being 8-27 even with all the scrubs on our roster. We have some guys that know how to play but they need motivation and a LEADER!!!

I see Wade complain to referees alot, but I don't see him really caring when we lose. He isn't showing emotion or getting in peoples faces when they mess up or motivating them.

Who knows maybe I'm just mad, and want to blame anybody for this miserable season and since Wade is our best player he is the one I choose. I am disappointed in Wade this season even with the injuries, he has not lived up to his name this year.

Wade has gone down for the first time in his career compared to last season, Wade has not added anything new to his game, but he has lost ball handling and athleticism(explosiveness) while Lebron and Melo continue to rise and add to their arsenal. Yea a lot is due to injury I know, but still I'm pissed!!!!!!!!!

Wade has missed games, he isn't 100%, Shaq and Zo are out and so on, I know all that, but we just lost to MINNESOTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree to an extent. Wade is now going through what LeBron and Melo was going through all the way back to 2003. He obviously came into the league behind Odom and Butler, and got a chance to come along a little slower than his draft peers. LBJ and Melo were the main focal points on their team from the outset.

Then of course Wade got the luxury of playing with a motivated Shaq, and quality hungry role players. LeBron has not had such a luxury. There's no excuse for Melo with his talent now.

But if you look at LeBron, he's carrying guys like Hughes, Snow, Ilgauskas, Gooden, Marshall etc... Sorry, but that's not the same quality of an O'neal, Zo, Posey, Haslem, Payton etc.. Which is why I thought LBJ getting that junk team to the finals was very impressive. However, I also thought Wade's conference finals runs in both 05 and 06 were excellent. But again, he had better pieces around him, which allowed him the freedom to operate.

And as far as the finals go ? It's hard to say what LBJ could have done to a first time finalist like Dallas, as opposed to facing us, and having all the experience. One thing's for sure, facing the Spurs in the finals is much tougher of a task than the soft Mavs. That's not to discredit Wade, cause his finals was one of the best I have seen. But, when comparing Wade and LeBron and their successes, I do believe Wade has had a much easier road than LeBron.

And even if LeBron's roster is a little better now, it's not that much better, and he's able to lead it night in and night out. D-Wade needs to start taking some accountability for his team's play, show some pride, and put an end to this.

Cause it's kinda going under the radar nationally, but once it gets going, D-Wade is going to have a lot of hate and negative press potentially come his way. And that finals run, no matter how great it was, will be a thing of the past if this doesn't get turned around. And that's one of the last thing the league needs since D-Wade is one of the few bright stars the league has.

[tsherkin]

-= original quote snipped =-



They finished 10-29 because both Kobe and Lamar got injured in the 2nd half of the season. Kobe only played 66 games that year. Missing your superstar on a new team is a big deal.

Sure, if you're team is comprised of scrubs... I'm saying, you can only do so much when your teammates aren't producing, it doesn't matter who you are.

Even Shaq only managed to get the Magic to .500 before he got Penny.

One guy is literally incapable of carrying a team. Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, none of those guys could do it alone, so why should we expect things to be different for Wade?

Jordan's Bulls won 38 games when he was a rookie, then 40 games in his third season (ignoring his second because he only played 18 games). What else do you want from an individual? Jordan is the guy talked about as the GOAT, right? So if the GOAT couldn't do it, how the Sam Hell do you expect Wade to?

More importantly, Jordan had more help when he won 40 games than does Wade at present.

Who on the Heat compares to Charles Oakley in 86-87? Remember, Oakley was a nasty defender (he was All-Defensive First Team in 93-94 but was generally recognized before then) and he also led the league in total rebounds that year (2nd in RPG).

Who's that good for Miami? Oak played all 82 that year. Wade doesn't even have what's left of Shaq playing right now and Shaq has looked pretty vulnerable so far this year. The lineup has been riddled by injuries and other DNPs, there's been significant roster turnover...

I mean, how much can you possibly ask from one player?

It's absolutely ridiculous to look at Wade and say "Well crap man, you're not doing enough."

Not with all the other stuff going on with the Heat and Wade performing the way he is even despite missing training camp and recovering from surgery, etc.

Utterly ridiculous.

[tsherkin]

But if you look at LeBron, he's carrying guys like Hughes, Snow, Ilgauskas, Gooden, Marshall etc... Sorry, but that's not the same quality of an O'neal, Zo, Posey, Haslem, Payton etc.. Which is why I thought LBJ getting that junk team to the finals was very impressive. However, I also thought Wade's conference finals runs in both 05 and 06 were excellent. But again, he had better pieces around him, which allowed him the freedom to operate.

This is generally false.

Payton was nothing special on the Heat; he had a few moments where he came through or otherwise made veteran plays and stuff but he was really a shell of what he was even in Milwaukee and Boston, nevermind Seattle. His defense was really quite poor and that was his main draw.

Haslem is a better defender than Gooden but they are quite close; Drew is an excellent rebounder. Ilgauskas is actually better than Shaq right now; he's rebounding more effectively, defending a lot better, he's always been a good 26% better at the line...

And perhaps most importantly, here at Big Z's games-played for the last half-decade...

81, 81, 78, 78, 78.

Shaq's? 67, 67, 73, 59, 40.

Big Z's been considerably more available to help his team and even if he hasn't ever approached the threat level Shaq has as a scorer, he's been contributing quite a bit. Downplaying him, especially in comparison to what Wade has now, that's really quite disingenuous. Posey's a specialist and isn't really all that special. He's a fine rotation player but he's nothing gigantic. 'Zo has been spectacular, I've nothing negative to say about him.

But Lebron's '07 Cavs were a great defensive team and that is why they got where they did (top 4 defense in the league). They also generally did well with what shooters they had (Damon Jones, Sasha Pavlovic, Daniel Gibson, Donyell Marshall... Gibson in particular, especially in the playoffs).

They had their pieces and they did their damage; they took Detroit straight on and that's fine... but Lebron had help.

And even if LeBron's roster is a little better now, it's not that much better, and he's able to lead it night in and night out. D-Wade needs to start taking some accountability for his team's play, show some pride, and put an end to this.

If you expect anyone to believe that the '08 Cavs are "not that much better" than the '08 Heat, then you're absolutely daft, no offense.

And when I say "daft," I really mean "stark raving mad."

Lebron's getting 14 and 10 from Big Z (and that whole "shot-blocking" thing that the Heat don't really have right now), almost the same from Drew Gooden (less the shot-blocking), Gibson's shooting a 47/48 right now and scoring in double-digits, and since he's come back, Varejao's giving them 7 and 8.

They are, as a team, the 8th-best rebounding group in the league, 3rd best in the association in defensive rebounding rate and 7th in offensive RbR. You will note, of course, that they have a losing record on the road and a negative point differential but they're in the middle of a big turnaround, especially the last 10 games.

Lebron has significantly more at his disposal than does Wade right now. Remember, his lineup has been healthy except for Hughes and LH is crap anyway, so the longer he's out of the lineup, the better.

But his team kills it on the glass; Miami is a terrible rebounding team. They're 27th in the league in rebound rate, 18th in defensive RbR and 26th in offensive RbR and they're getting outscored by nearly a half-dozen points on a nightly basis.

The team has imploded because Wade has little help; the reverse is not true of Lebron.

[cisco]

Paul Pierce has carried worse teams to the playoffs. Not to the finals, but to the playoffs.

Paul Pierce, Antoine Walker, Tony Delk, Eric Williams, Kenny Anderson (past his prime), Tony Battie and their big man was...... Vitaly Potapenko LOL (who was injured and didn't play. That team went to the ECF.

Wow, I forgot how little talent that team had.

[CoolD]

Paul Pierce has carried worse teams to the playoffs. Not to the finals, but to the playoffs.

Paul Pierce, Antoine Walker, Tony Delk, Eric Williams, Kenny Anderson (past his prime), Tony Battie and their big man was...... Vitaly Potapenko LOL (who was injured and didn't play. That team went to the ECF.

Wow, I forgot how little talent that team had.

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Last year your boy Pierce led the Celtics the second worst record in the league.

[Vertical Limit]

No offense, but this thread is (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

Wade is playing injured. He is suppose to be sitting down on the bench right now but is still playing. And look at the rest of our team. Most of our starters are bench players on other teams.

Jason Williams, Ricky Davis and Dorrell Wright are an 8th man off the bench in another team, at best.

Chris Quinn, Blount, Anthony Johnson don't even belong in this league.

Udonis Haslem is not a 2nd or 3rd option at scoring. He should be a #4 or #5 guy, yet he has possibly the 3rd most FG attempts per game on this squad.

This is the team Wade is in. This is much worst than the situation Allen Iverson had in Philly, much worst than what Kobe has ever had in L.A., and definitely worst than Kevin Garnett had in Minnesota.

Don't start judging Wade for not being able to win with a bunch of garbage players surrounding him, AND HE'S INJURED.

[CoolD]

If Wade is hurt, then he should sit out. Like Riley said, once you are in the court, injuries excuse go out the window.

Know the team right know is awful, but many of you guys implied before the season that we were a Championship team.

So if I go back and read half your comments about we were so ready for another run, and know switch on having the worst team ever. (know we do, but we still were losing with Zo, Shaq, Dorel, J Williams were on the court) I think some of you are going overboard trowing everyone under the bus, but never Wade. Wade does need to take some type of responsility, not much, but some.

[cisco]

-= original quote snipped =-

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Last year your boy Pierce led the Celtics the second worst record in the league.

I didn't say Pierce carried a team to the playoffs every year, just stating the year that he did. Believe it or not, he carried an even worse team then the one I mentioned above to the playoffs (after Antoine was traded away). So he carried that same team (minus Antoine) to the playoffs the next year, although they were swept in the first round. And until now, Pierce never had a decent big man to play with.

That being said, I don't think the Heat's problems are Wade. I think the rest of the players are not carrying their weight. The teams Pierce played with, bad as they were, played their hearts out. I don't see that with the other Heat players, save for Haslem.

[fishfuego.]

If Wade is hurt, then he should sit out. Like Riley said, once you are in the court, injuries excuse go out the window.

Know the team right know is awful, but many of you guys implied before the season that we were a Championship team.

So if I go back and read half your comments about we were so ready for another run, and know switch on having the worst team ever. (know we do, but we still were losing with Zo, Shaq, Dorel, J Williams were on the court) I think some of you are going overboard trowing everyone under the bus, but never Wade. Wade does need to take some type of responsility, not much, but some.

whatever!!...ZO was only able to play 10-15 minutes of high energy or did someone forget he had a transplant...Shaq can't move nor jump, he I--S S--L--O--W...Dorel should be playing college ball just about now, although playing regularly this year may compensate...JW has 2 flat wheels, nough said, when a guy name Quinn, that belongs on another league not called NBA, is starting in his place, there's not really much to add....BTW, this Heat team was not going to accomplish jack shiat in the playoffs and developing the youngs while positioning themselfs for a high draft pick is the best thing to happend to an old Team that won a chip with almost broken pieces...IMO this is a good thing in the long run.

[Vertical Limit]

You forget how much Wade has put on the line for the Miami Heat.

He's not making excuses for himself, but the reality is, he's injured yet still on the court. It's his decision. Guess what, Riley admitted it himself too stating that Wade has been playing banged up and injured.

This is Wade's team, you think he wants to stay on the bench watching his team go down? He wants to win, he's been nothing less of a warrior in his career. No matter what, Wade gives us the best chance to win every night, even at his injured form.

In most situations, he would not have been there for the 7th game of the Eastern Conference Finals against the Pistons with a bad rib injury. It was his decision to be on the court.

He should not have been playing last year in the playoffs, hell, he should have been out for the season the day of his injury and going on his surgery. It was his decision to come back, he was not forced to, he was asked what he would like to do, and he came back in hope to lead his team back to the finals, to defend the title he pretty much was the main reason why we have that trophy, on a bad knee and bad shoulder [with nerve damage], pretty much his entire left side of the body at 70%, at best.

He's averaging about 25 ppg on this pathetic squad and not even 100%. Has shown flashes of his greatness, but we have to accept that he's not 100% and won't be for the rest of this season.

I too beleive he should sit out the rest of the season, but I don't think Wade will give up on his team, atleast this early.

[Joe Kleazy]

-= original quote snipped =-

I agree to an extent. Wade is now going through what LeBron and Melo was going through all the way back to 2003. He obviously came into the league behind Odom and Butler, and got a chance to come along a little slower than his draft peers. LBJ and Melo were the main focal points on their team from the outset.

Then of course Wade got the luxury of playing with a motivated Shaq, and quality hungry role players. LeBron has not had such a luxury. There's no excuse for Melo with his talent now.

But if you look at LeBron, he's carrying guys like Hughes, Snow, Ilgauskas, Gooden, Marshall etc... Sorry, but that's not the same quality of an O'neal, Zo, Posey, Haslem, Payton etc.. Which is why I thought LBJ getting that junk team to the finals was very impressive. However, I also thought Wade's conference finals runs in both 05 and 06 were excellent. But again, he had better pieces around him, which allowed him the freedom to operate.

And as far as the finals go ? It's hard to say what LBJ could have done to a first time finalist like Dallas, as opposed to facing us, and having all the experience. One thing's for sure, facing the Spurs in the finals is much tougher of a task than the soft Mavs. That's not to discredit Wade, cause his finals was one of the best I have seen. But, when comparing Wade and LeBron and their successes, I do believe Wade has had a much easier road than LeBron.

And even if LeBron's roster is a little better now, it's not that much better, and he's able to lead it night in and night out. D-Wade needs to start taking some accountability for his team's play, show some pride, and put an end to this.

Cause it's kinda going under the radar nationally, but once it gets going, D-Wade is going to have a lot of hate and negative press potentially come his way. And that finals run, no matter how great it was, will be a thing of the past if this doesn't get turned around. And that's one of the last thing the league needs since D-Wade is one of the few bright stars the league has.

Cant disagree with anything in the post aside from this. The refs had too much of a influence on what wade was able to do offensively. We already knew wade was a accomplished talent but with the way the league allows defense to be played nowadays combined with the terrible officiating of that series it allowed wade to really go off. I am a fan of neither team by the way.

Also your point that Melo has no excuse now with the talent on that team is true although EVERY year he has had a key peice go down for a good stretch and he still made the postseason every year (in the west) which I dont think wade (although injured) will be able to say after this season. Personally I dont think AI ( as talented as he is) is the best possible match with Melo's game seeing as though both are scorers. A sane Artest or a Joe Johnson type would seem to suit his game more especially since he is rebounding and starting to play more all around nowadays.

[Joe Kleazy]

If Wade is hurt, then he should sit out. Like Riley said, once you are in the court, injuries excuse go out the window.

Know the team right know is awful, but many of you guys implied before the season that we were a Championship team.

So if I go back and read half your comments about we were so ready for another run, and know switch on having the worst team ever. (know we do, but we still were losing with Zo, Shaq, Dorel, J Williams were on the court) I think some of you are going overboard trowing everyone under the bus, but never Wade. Wade does need to take some type of responsility, not much, but some.

I agree CoolD. Wade is responsible for taking caution for his own good. IF he is hurt and you are losing then he takes no flak, but as long as he deems himself well enough to step out on the court being the leader of that team HE WILL TAKE BLAME.

Miami gave up the excuse of complaining about that roster when they sold their soul for Shaq, aside from who they let walk away from last year. When they were winning it was all gravy to be paying shaq 20 mil a season, but now you bash him for his contract. You won a ring be happy with the repercussions.

I remember reading a thread on here a few days ago on how someone brought up the possibility of keeping the team you had (Wade,Odom,Butler, Haslem) to build a championship team instead of trading for Oneal's albatross contract and he was bashed. His reasoning seemed to be countered by the "If you have a chance to win it you do it by any means" theory but the end result down the line is what is taking place now( Dont worry boston will be far more embarrassed when they have no young star and no rings). The east was no stronger than it was now and maybe that should have been the course taken, but you had a championship right?

There was NO DOUBT that down was the only way to go for shaq, which was the the MAIN reason we dealt him to you. His motivation to be great had more to do with proving the lakers wrong than it did with miami at that point which shows in his preperation, motivation and play now. This is the REAL SHAQ people.


I do think injuries to ZO and wade are the reason in which this team lost its chance this season but like stated some thought this was a championship team at the beginning of the season so the true problem cant be these new set of circumstances. Plus c'mon you know stern will give you guys a #1 pick anyway to save face, you know he cant have wade on a bad team for too long........its all about money to stern.

[dflash3]

I remember reading a thread on here a few days ago on how someone brought up the possibility of keeping the team you had (Wade,Odom,Butler, Haslem) to build a championship team instead of trading for Oneal's albatross contract and he was bashed. His reasoning seemed to be countered by the "If you have a chance to win it you do it by any means" theory but the end result down the line is what is taking place now( Dont worry boston will be far more embarrassed when they have no young star and no rings). The east was no stronger than it was now and maybe that should have been the course taken, but you had a championship right?

Winning a championship filled a void in the Heat organization. There is simply no regrets and the Heat would make the same move over again.

The past has an effect on the decisions teams make. Had the Heat already won a championship before they most likely wouldn't have traded away a youthful core for Shaq, since they wouldn't be desperate to get their first ring.

Not to mention that while the situation isn't great past achievements are still looked proudly upon and add to the accomplishments of an organization.

The end results happening now is going to be in the past next season, but the fact that the Heat brought a championship to Miami will never change.

[BigDaddyPR]

This is classic MHF, hes been quiet since SHAQ got his 4th ring.. but that doesnt means he has changed!! lol!!

[exkonvict]

To be honest, Wade needs to go for 40 every night to compete. I would respect him more.

Wade plays in the East. No superstar driven team playing in the East should have single digit wins by this time of the season.