Miami Heat Regular Season/Speculation Thread 2021 Part 3

[Kobewade11]

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Bosh-esque medical situation

[twix2500]

Here are the issues that I have notice that Spo has to solve. Spo has been tinkering with going small and attacking defense throughout the season. A set he was experimenting/developing with Okpala (but originated with DJ) and preparing to be a main defensive scheme. Obviously the hesitation to fully commit was because Okpala was still developing as a pro basketball player in general. I remember a question was asked of Spo about KZ development and Spo responded "I just want him to focus on his specific role".

Heat trades for Ariza, a player who knows how to be a pro and capable of playing the role that was for KZ. At the same time, Bradley was waiting to return who can be that final piece for a pressure, switching attack defense. One that can cause turnovers to compensate for lack of rebounds from lack of size. Then came the pursuit of Lowry and Oladipo two way guards who can score but also fit the defensive scheme.

I get it, if you can't match a team with size, be a better version of the opposite and see if you can force teams to adjust. Once the Heat added Dipo, giving up the only credible role player with size, Spo committed to the attacking defense as the primary defense. The idea of being able to rotate Ariza, Dipo, Iggy, Okpala, Butler and Bam throughout the entirety of the game may be enough of a problem for teams.. Flashes of its potential was taking place, but Dipo injury has completely collapsed the scheme. For a number of reasons, not only defensively but offensively.

We all know what Dipo was providing defensively. But offensively Dipo doesn't have to run off screens of bigs to have success like Herro, Duncan, Dragic and Nunn flourish off of. Dipo was going to take usage away from Dragic and Nunn, and become a drive and kick player for Duncan so he can rely less on screens. Now that Dipo is hurt, Nunn, Dragic usage is needed but missing is Olynyk (Leonard as well) as a big body screener pick n pop player.

Dragic is suffering likely the most. He is getting exposed to having to beat defenders without great picks. The same for Herro, Nunn and Duncan. Even thou Nunn is capable of beating his man without a screen its not part of his game. Thus this is hurting the chemistry of the offense as well as the defense.

Defensively, we all know the weaknesses of this current scheme. But what it could do was suppose to over compensate the weakness. No ball pressure from Oladipo, teams can run their offense cleanly and get the ball to the open spots and the mismatch down low.

Spo has to figure out how to satisfy the needs of Dragic, Nunn, Robinson and Herro only floor without key role players.

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IMO the only to solve this is to go back to the former formula. Using Jelly and Dedmon as Olynyk and Leonard. But are they really good enough to do so?

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[AirP.]

Would it be too much to ask for a roster who doesn't look like one of the worst teams in the NBA without him?

Oladipo cost nearly nothing to acquire, they could have had Lowry(which they would have resigned) but didn't want to give up the assets or possibly pay him what he was asking for an extension.

What kind of logic is this? If he's not out there this team wouldn't be doing anything anyway. You didn't even want Lowry. And sending out 4-5 players for him wasn't going to make this team an instant contender and you know it. You just like hearing yourself talk.

Right, if Butler's not out there this team wouldn't do #()$)(, so why not get him help or is this franchise fine with this team being bad and hope for another bubble comes along to help. Not having true away games against hostel crowds did wonders for the younger players.

I've mentioned I would have given up Herro but I can see the argument of not doing that because of Lowry's age, I don't agree with it but can understand that thinking. I would have asked for another useful player moving Tyler for Lowry.

[AirP.]

at the deadline:

I'd rather see Miami pivot to Oladipo for way less assets, with his salary being 9 million less it's even less salary that has to be sent out.

Absolutely, doesn't mean I didn't want Lowry, I'd given up Herro for him and another piece. The extra salary Lowry cost over Oladipo ment Miami had to send out a rotation guy with Herro.

Also, I'm still not a Herro advocate, his ORTG - DRTG numbers are horrible, this year and last, he makes the team less efficient when he's on the court. Hopefully he turns it around but I don't see him ever being a top 30 player in this league and with that, easily tradable for a possibly very good or better player that isn't in his mid 30s. I would move him for Lowry and someone else useful while keeping all the other assets you would have had to trade instead of Herro.

[Kobewade11]

at the deadline:

I'd rather see Miami pivot to Oladipo for way less assets, with his salary being 9 million less it's even less salary that has to be sent out.

Absolutely, doesn't mean I didn't want Lowry, I'd given up Herro for him and another piece. The extra salary ment Miami had to send out a rotation guy with Herro.

You didn't want to pay the price, it's right there.

[AirP.]

at the deadline:

Absolutely, doesn't mean I didn't want Lowry, I'd given up Herro for him and another piece. The extra salary ment Miami had to send out a rotation guy with Herro.

You didn't want to pay the price, it's right there.

The price was Herro and Miami's FO said no.

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[Kobewade11]

The price was Herro and Miami's FO said no.

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I'm not talking about the FO I'm talking about you. And they were right

[SoFlaKingReal]

Is it odd that I'm starting to get the same vibes about Butler in Miami as I did at the end with Butler in Chicago, the FO just refusing to build around him because he's not your typical 25-30 ppg star. Better hope Butler signs an extension this offseason or he may have thoughts on leaving after next season(4th year is a player option). Butler's type of game can age well deep into his 30s if he wants to play that long.

It wouldn't surprise me if Butler ends up back with Thibodeau in New York at some point. Don't underestimate their bond although he's built a bond with Spoelstra also. Thibodeau had Butler's back when Chicago's FO(Gar Foreman) threatened to have him benched(which Thibodeau didn't do) for that year that Butler bet on himself in Chicago. Playing for Thibodeau wasn't an option after Philly, it is now and Miami has just went 2 offseasons since adding Butler without really adding anything of significant value(other then Oladipo who basically forced his way there like Butler did).

Spoiler:

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If Butler moves on in a year, most of you will be happy to see the franchise turned over to Herro, the guy who can't be traded for better win now plays in Butler's prime. You did see Butler liked Harden saying he'd be good going to Miami... Butler knows what it would take to get him and Miami didn't do it.

Can't wait to see the next batch of bad contracts given out by this FO, I am very surprised how bad this FO has been in the last 2 years.

You must be fun at parties.

Probably more fun then watching this team.

Sorry for being tired watching Butler just carrying bad rosters to the playoffs with the FO just flat out refusing to really trade any of their assets to get him some help. He did it in Chicago, Minnesota and now trying to do that in Miami.

Here's a harsh reality...
LA got LeBron, a year later they traded nearly all they're assets for AD and won the championship and are the favorites when healthy for the next few years, Miami had a chance to add Harden to Butler and Bam but Miami refused to do what it took(trade all the good youth) to get Harden and now they're where they're at, looking like a below .500 roster plus J.Butler. We got to see how bad this team was without Butler yet the FO still has done nearly nothing to make this team better for the next few years.

I'm just tired of seeing your redundant posts. I think you've made your point...dozens of times. I'm not saying I entirely disagree with you, its just that you've beaten this horse to death long ago.

[AirP.]

The price was Herro and Miami's FO said no.

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I'm not talking about the FO I'm talking about you. And they were right

Even though I wanted the FO to pivot, it doesn't mean I wouldn't of done the deal. I think 99% of this board thinks more highly of Herro then I do.

On Oladipo vs Lowry
Lowry is better now and maybe next year, Oladipo I believe is still recovering(even if it's was just mental) and was continuing to look better in the way he was moving in Houston.

[carnageta]

No rebounds no rings. Can be please stop trying to force midget ball and pretend like we have Lebron James on the court? We don't.

What reason is there not to play Bam and Bjelica together, or Precious and Bjelica? We even have Dedmon now.

Also, can we for the love of god stop switching so much? Every single possession we allowed a small to switch onto their big and they bullied us. Why are we making it so easy?

DeAndre Ayton tore us a new butthole.

As did Nikola YoKic.

Will KAT be next?

Bam can guard all of these dudes, but we keep switching him onto the perimeter and put Duncan Robinson downlow. fml

[DayofMourning]

Actually canceled my League Pass after last nights game. The team is just off and not fun to watch this year.

They said: "we just want to watch the kids develop"

Petty, but true story.

Honestly, I'd be watching more if my schedule wasn't bum-phuck rn

Wanted to watch Winnie too, tho he's been trash. Hopefully he's good for the playoffs

Don't mind the kids developing but we've played some poor ball (positionless bball and Pepe Lepew 3 point shooting) that is just an eyesore.

[AirP.]

I'm just tired of seeing your redundant posts. I think you've made your point...dozens of times. I'm not saying I entirely disagree with you, its just that you've beaten this horse to death long ago.

And that's the sad part, I've been saying this for half of Butler's contract and still, very few moves have been made and the moves that were made were very safe/low risk moves. It's not what I expected from an organization controlled by Riley.

[AirP.]

Actually canceled my League Pass after last nights game. The team is just off and not fun to watch this year.

They said: "we just want to watch the kids develop"

Petty, but true story.

Honestly, I'd be watching more if my schedule wasn't bum-phuck rn

Wanted to watch Winnie too, tho he's been trash. Hopefully he's good for the playoffs

Don't mind the kids developing but we've played some poor ball (positionless bball and Pepe Lepew 3 point shooting) that is just an eyesore.

It's really one or the other, either your going for it or you're developing the young players, that's the point. If Miami wants to develop their young players, find out where Butler would want to play and move him for some assets, if you want to win in Butler's window you need to move young players with potential to create a better roster during that window.

[MettaWorldPanda]

I'm just tired of seeing your redundant posts. I think you've made your point...dozens of times. I'm not saying I entirely disagree with you, its just that you've beaten this horse to death long ago.

And that's the sad part, I've been saying this for half of Butler's contract and still, very few moves have been made and the moves that were made were very safe/low risk moves. It's not what I expected from an organization controlled by Riley.

Lack of quality assets and limited cap space have hindered us. It was a small miracle getting Butler.

[carnageta]

I'm just tired of seeing your redundant posts. I think you've made your point...dozens of times. I'm not saying I entirely disagree with you, its just that you've beaten this horse to death long ago.

And that's the sad part, I've been saying this for half of Butler's contract and still, very few moves have been made and the moves that were made were very safe/low risk moves. It's not what I expected from an organization controlled by Riley.

The only one I agree with is the Chris Paul one. We shoulda got him.

We didn’t have enough for Harden. Plain and simple.

Also, you definitely don’t trade Herro for 35 year old Lowry in any circumstance.

It is what it is man. Oladipo would have been tremendous and maybe we’d be 2-1 on this road trip had he not gotten hurt.

[AirP.]

I'm just tired of seeing your redundant posts. I think you've made your point...dozens of times. I'm not saying I entirely disagree with you, its just that you've beaten this horse to death long ago.

And that's the sad part, I've been saying this for half of Butler's contract and still, very few moves have been made and the moves that were made were very safe/low risk moves. It's not what I expected from an organization controlled by Riley.

Lack of quality assets and limited cap space have hindered us. It was a small miracle getting Butler.

For starters, why does Miami have limited cap space or lack of quality assets, is it another FO's fault? Secondly, with so "few" of assets why do they keep talking about acquiring a "whale" if they don't have the assets?

At the very least Miami could have drafted for someone this last draft for someone else(in an agreed in principle trade) and traded their rights for someone who could this year and possibly beyond. This summer, that 1st round pick, Nunn, Herro, Robinson, and KZ all had value to move.

It really just looks like Butler was acquired to help Miami not be as bad as they would be while developing their young guys(at that time... Bam, Winslow, Herro, Nunn). This current team would still have that 1st, Richardson and Winslow had they not traded for Butler and that's probably a much better long term situation for the future. Also, without Butler last year's pick probably would have been in the lottery, possibly high enough for Miami to have gotten Haliburton and probably at worst case drafting Saddiq Bey who was taken 1 pick before Precious.

[HeatGuyInChicago]

I love when people complain about a front office that put together a team that got to the NBA Championship Game last year. In the modern NBA, no front office can continuously maintain a championship team.

[Kobewade11]

I love when people complain about a front office that put together a team that got to the NBA Championship Game last year. In the modern NBA, no front office can continuously maintain a championship team.

"bu but..Riley isn't showing he wants to win"

[AirP.]

Spoiler:

I'm just tired of seeing your redundant posts. I think you've made your point...dozens of times. I'm not saying I entirely disagree with you, its just that you've beaten this horse to death long ago.

And that's the sad part, I've been saying this for half of Butler's contract and still, very few moves have been made and the moves that were made were very safe/low risk moves. It's not what I expected from an organization controlled by Riley.

The only one I agree with is the Chris Paul one. We shoulda got him.

We didn’t have enough for Harden. Plain and simple.

Also, you definitely don’t trade Herro for 35 year old Lowry in any circumstance.

It is what it is man. Oladipo would have been tremendous and maybe we’d be 2-1 on this road trip had he not gotten hurt.

Couldn't of gotten Harden? Have you looked at the package Houston received?

Houston got...
LeVert who turned into Oladipo.
4 draft picks, highly probable 2 late 1st round picks in 2022, a late 1st round in 2024 and possibly a mid 1st or better in 2026 from the Nets. So probably 3 late first rounders and 1 possibly good pick.
The 4 swaps, maybe move up a few spots in 2025 or 2027, highly doubt it's much.

TADA.. that's it but it sounds way better saying 4 1st rounders, 4 swaps and not mentioning the quality or high probability of most if not all of those swaps not getting close to happening. It's quite possible they get 0 lottery picks out of a Harden trade. What a horrible haul for a player who could play at an MVP caliber rate for another 3-5 years.

Yes, I think Miami had or could have given up more for Harden but Miami would have emptied out the cupboard and had to fill spots with vet minimums this year and FAs for the next few years.

How many 1st could you get for Robinson to send them? 1 for sure, possibly 2 and those may be late 1st rounders.
How many 1st for Herro or just send Herro to them? Any chance OKC would be fine giving back Miami their 2 1st rounders and possibly more for him? At the minimum I think you could get 2 solid 1sts(not late 1sts) for him, probably more from a rebuilding team with other team's picks.
Precious or KZ would be considered a late 1st round value or a little better.
Move Nunn who they may retain next year or flip for a 2nd rounder or pick swap like they did with Oladipo.
Offer up any and all pick swaps possible, even more if Miami gets it's 1sts back from OKC.
Add in Kelly and Iggy, they could try to get 2nd rounders from them at the trade dead line.

Also remember this, you're just not adding Harden to Miami, you're making sure a contender in the East doesn't get him.

On Lowry for Herro, I do that every day of the week if there's a wink wink agreement to resign Lowry for 2 more years to give Butler and Bam a much better chance at winning a championship for Miami.

Oladipo was a roll of the dice for now and the future(Bird rights) and hopefully long term he's fine and it would be even better if he was good to go shortly after this roadtrip. I hope it's just pain he has to play though and with that, hopefully he's taking extra time away from the team to find out how to not overcompensate for the pain which could create another issue.

[AirP.]

I love when people complain about a front office that put together a team that got to the NBA Championship Game last year. In the modern NBA, no front office can continuously maintain a championship team.

Much like everyone else outside of Miami, I think the bubble had a lot to do with their success. No normal road playoff games helped Miami's younger players greatly.