2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 3

[MettaWorldPanda]

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Love is truly the rock of the lockerroom now these days. Probably doubtful he gets moved with Jimmy

[AirP.]

Spoiler:

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We were stuck. Part of it was our fault for overpaying a dude like Duncan that no one wanted on such a long deal.

Herro showing now that his deal was worth it but was too young and still developing and his timeline didn't match up with Jimmy's.

And lastly the biggest issue I'll never get over, trading for Lowry and giving him 3-90M when he was already a shell of himself and raptors were perfectly fine on letting him move on. Lowry ruined Jimmy's timeline here. And then we panicked and sent a first to get rozier and dumped Lowry.

How were we to make moves when we had no real assets in terms of picks and all our cap was stuck on players nobody wanted? Duncan is on Riley but Lowry, who I felt was the bigger problem, is on jimmy.

Part of this is true, but part of this is revisionist history.

In 2019-2020 - after we acquired Iguodala and Crowder - Pat had the extended opportunity to also get Gallo and CP3 for very cheap. Gallo was averaging 19 ppg in OKC that year but was on a multi-year contract, and Chris Paul was an expiring. OKC was cleaning house for the grand reset. However, we didn't want to take on any salary that would get in the way of the 2021 offseason (the year Giannis was going to be a free agent) and so we didn't make the trade. Giannis ended up signing an extension about 8 months later and eventually won the championship in 2021, rendering that entire plan 'moot'. We instead used the money to sign 36 YO Kyle Lowry.


Point being, we had an opportunity to get greater depth around Jimmy back when he was just 30, and opted to not do it. With Gallo and CP3 on the roster, perhaps we get the job done agains the Lakers in the finals.

This is just one example. @AirP has about a dozen up his sleeve too.

Close.

CP3 could have been the summer of 2019 a month after Butler was acquired but Miami saw what OKC got (2 1sts) for the Westbrook/CP3 swap and wanted draft assets to take on the contract and for CP3 to decline his PO early so they'd have enough cap space to chase Giannis in case he was dumb enough to turn down the supermax from Milwaukee, vs gets his money and then force a S&T a year later.

During that bubble year Miami went and got Iggy, Hill and Crowder. They initially wanted Gallo but he wanted an extension that Miami refused to give him, I believe Crowder and/or Hill were the replacements for Gallo in the package. Miami goes to the Finals, had Dragic and Bam not got hurt probably win that championship, Miami really utilized Dragic's scoring which allowed Butler to do the little things and play harder on defense, same for Bam (all Miami needed was a vet scorer and they just never went after one other than a damaged Oladipo on the cheap).

There were a lot of missteps but one thing that should be taken from this era that I already knew, when you're close, go for it, don't try to go down 2 different paths with the roster, I'm not sure it's ever worked. Golden State tried it and did win another championship but they basically wasted a #2 pick (Wiseman), possibly Kumanga (they're not sure how good he is after 4 years) and got a decent player in Moody.

Maybe Miami's learned that lesson and that's why they've pushed the youth movement, did little to go for it although they threw a 1st to Rozier who I wouldn't have given them multiple 2nds to swap Rozier and Lowry.

You hopefully learn and move on.

[AirP.]

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Love is truly the rock of the lockerroom now these days. Probably doubtful he gets moved with Jimmy

Either Ernny points out the particular lie(s) or needs to not call people liars in a public forum without proof.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

I see how you can have that perspective based on projecting those assumptions onto the situation.

I disagree and see it differently. The Heat have been drafting skillsets. The Heat—from Spo to FO to Scouting spoke a lot about Ware’s skillset in how he can fit with Bam and play to a style that they are pursuing. I think there’s more internal alignment between player acquisition, dev program, and coaching than the narrative being pushed.

So, you think Spoelstra is wanting to move Bam's offense to PF, go more towards drop coverage because of Ware at the 5 and utilize less of Bam's strengths which one would be his ability to switch and guard anyone on the court? I don't know why you'd give up trying to get a 37-40% 3pt volume shooter at a much lower price than the max then live with Bam playing that role at the max.

Whether intentional or not, you're trying really hard to conflate this. You ask me if I think Spoelstra is wanting Bam to "go more towards drop coverage because of Ware at the 5 and utilize less of Bam's stregths which one would be his ability to switch and guard anyone on the court". My answer to that is that you may need to pay better attention because that's something that has already happened independent of Ware.

The drop remains but one part of the package – 53.5 percent of his coverages have been drop, a career high and just three percentage points behind Gobert, where common comparison Draymond Green never topped 40 percent – and of the 33 players who have defended at least 1,000 screens in any coverage, Adebayo moves all the way up to No. 5 at 0.96 points allowed per action, his 0.83 mark when the ballhandler attacks in a dead heat with Gobert.

Link: https://www.nba.com/heat/news/bam-adebayo-plus-one-defensive-player-of-the-year

Spo ramped up drop coverage and blended coverages to a huge degree as of last season, and guess what, Bam proved to make it a strength, as well.

I think Bam--with Spo's support and guidance--is continually rounding out his game on both ends to be as multi-faceted as possible. That means being more comfortable playing on the perimeter and taking open 3s. That means more drop coverage and distinct defensive assignments. That means more multi-faceted in who he can complement on the court.

Yes, I'd rather have a DPOY on the floor that plays his game but can also space the floor in a pinch and accommodate his teammates rather than trot out a Davis Bertans for heavy minutes.

Any Bam-Ware fit dialogue is looking at the next chunk of years, not the next chunk of games this season. That's what Miami's operating lens should be in a post-Jimmy scenario.

Like I've said (and is common sense), if the other players on the floor are shooters, then it makes it easier to fit Bam's game with them rather than hope he turns into a volume 35%+ shooter from 3. If he can be an occasional 35% shooter from 3 (not unlike Jimmy's approach), then that's the win that I believe Miami and Bam are working towards.

Removing grenades Bam is at 33% from 3 this year so it’s a step in the right direction and something to continue to build on. Hopefully even more post Jimmy with higher usage and shot attempts

[Rapaz]

Miami Out: Butler
Miami In: Simmons, McCain

Philly Out: George, McCain
Philly In: Butler

Brooklyn Out: Simmons
Brooklyn In: George

[AirP.]

I see how you can have that perspective based on projecting those assumptions onto the situation.

I disagree and see it differently. The Heat have been drafting skillsets. The Heat—from Spo to FO to Scouting spoke a lot about Ware’s skillset in how he can fit with Bam and play to a style that they are pursuing. I think there’s more internal alignment between player acquisition, dev program, and coaching than the narrative being pushed.

So, you think Spoelstra is wanting to move Bam's offense to PF, go more towards drop coverage because of Ware at the 5 and utilize less of Bam's strengths which one would be his ability to switch and guard anyone on the court? I don't know why you'd give up trying to get a 37-40% 3pt volume shooter at a much lower price than the max then live with Bam playing that role at the max.

Whether intentional or not, you're trying really hard to conflate this. You ask me if I think Spoelstra is wanting Bam to "go more towards drop coverage because of Ware at the 5 and utilize less of Bam's stregths which one would be his ability to switch and guard anyone on the court". My answer to that is that you may need to pay better attention because that's something that has already happened independent of Ware.

I think that's why I mentioned going to it... more.

The drop remains but one part of the package – 53.5 percent of his coverages have been drop, a career high and just three percentage points behind Gobert, where common comparison Draymond Green never topped 40 percent – and of the 33 players who have defended at least 1,000 screens in any coverage, Adebayo moves all the way up to No. 5 at 0.96 points allowed per action, his 0.83 mark when the ballhandler attacks in a dead heat with Gobert.

Link: https://www.nba.com/heat/news/bam-adebayo-plus-one-defensive-player-of-the-year

Spo ramped up drop coverage and blended coverages to a huge degree as of last season, and guess what, Bam proved to make it a strength, as well.

I think Bam--with Spo's support and guidance--is continually rounding out his game on both ends to be as multi-faceted as possible. That means being more comfortable playing on the perimeter and taking open 3s. That means more drop coverage and distinct defensive assignments. That means more multi-faceted in who he can complement on the court.

Yes, I'd rather have a DPOY on the floor that plays his game but can also space the floor in a pinch and accommodate his teammates rather than trot out a Davis Bertans for heavy minutes.

Any Bam-Ware fit dialogue is looking at the next chunk of years, not the next chunk of games this season. That's what Miami's operating lens should be in a post-Jimmy scenario.

Like I've said (and is common sense), if the other players on the floor are shooters, then it makes it easier to fit Bam's game with them rather than hope he turns into a volume 35%+ shooter from 3. If he can be an occasional 35% shooter from 3 (not unlike Jimmy's approach), then that's the win that I believe Miami and Bam are working towards.

Sure, but what if Spoelstra can have all 5 shooting 3s well from long range, this is pretty much what the NBA is moving towards with its current ruleset, this year Miami's at 13th with 38 3pta while Boston at #1 at nearly 51 3pta, Boston currently takes 10 more 3s than 2s. Personally, I don't like how many 3s are being put up but with enough players being skilled this way, why not build your whole team around 3pt shooters if you can. At this point, it's a victory for the defense when anyone takes a midrange shot unless they're hitting that shot at nearly 60%+ and not many are doing that, Bam is under 50% in the midrange.

[MorbidHEAT]

I traded Butler 2 years ago for a haul.

Same right after the failed Dame trade fell through that was the time!

Amen…I’ve been saying that. If they wouldn’t or couldn’t commit to bringing in another star, he should have been traded right after he absolutely demolished Jrue Holiday and the Bucks and led us to the finals. We would have gotten an amazing haul at that time.

[greg4012]

So, you think Spoelstra is wanting to move Bam's offense to PF, go more towards drop coverage because of Ware at the 5 and utilize less of Bam's strengths which one would be his ability to switch and guard anyone on the court? I don't know why you'd give up trying to get a 37-40% 3pt volume shooter at a much lower price than the max then live with Bam playing that role at the max.

Whether intentional or not, you're trying really hard to conflate this. You ask me if I think Spoelstra is wanting Bam to "go more towards drop coverage because of Ware at the 5 and utilize less of Bam's stregths which one would be his ability to switch and guard anyone on the court". My answer to that is that you may need to pay better attention because that's something that has already happened independent of Ware.

I think that's why I mentioned going to it... more.
[quote]

1) Bam has proven to be dynamic independent of defensive coverage, thus opening up the styles of defense that can be played to accommodate the personnel around it.

2) Miami already made the shift to incorporate drop coverage (majority scheme last season with Bam on the floor), so IDK where any mention of going to it more is coming from. Is the rate higher this year? How are the results? If the defense succeeds and Bam is good at it, what is the concern aside from trying to fit facts into your pre-established position to comfortably affirm your preferred narrative?

[MorbidHEAT]

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They failed Jimmy as a franchise, that is indisputable.

Heat fans: “what do you mean? They put a team around Jimmy that led us to 4 eastern finals and 2 finals…they tried”.

No the hell they did not. That was lucky scouting, development, and the greatness of Jimmy Butler. We had no business being that semi-dominant for those years. It was all on the back of Himmy Butler. If your all star player is begging you to make a move and his window is closing, you make the move if it’s even feasible.

[heater4life]

Out of all the potential acquisitions my least favorite is Kuminga. He’s an athlete, but has rocks for bbiq.

I hope Fox tries to make his way down here. Resets the timeline. If we’re able to get him with a defensive wing I’m good.

[fincane30]

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They failed Jimmy as a franchise, that is indisputable.

Heat fans: “what do you mean? They put a team around Jimmy that led us to 4 eastern finals and 2 finals…they tried”.

No the hell they did not. That was lucky scouting, development, and the greatness of Jimmy Butler. We had no business being that semi-dominant for those years. It was all on the back of Himmy Butler. If your all star player is begging you to make a move and his window is closing, you make the move if it’s even feasible.

People are so easily spun. Jimmy and his reps will flood the market with the winning DNA stuff, his role being reduced and not getting any help. Anything but acknowledging that he saw it as disrespect that the Heat weren't crawling on hands and knees to give him that max extension. Because that truth aint marketable. Tell the truth. You want out because you're not getting your money.

[greg4012]

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They failed Jimmy as a franchise, that is indisputable.

Heat fans: “what do you mean? They put a team around Jimmy that led us to 4 eastern finals and 2 finals…they tried”.

No the hell they did not. That was lucky scouting, development, and the greatness of Jimmy Butler. We had no business being that semi-dominant for those years. It was all on the back of Himmy Butler. If your all star player is begging you to make a move and his window is closing, you make the move if it’s even feasible.

I love lucky scouting and development.

I wonder which NBA team it will be this year

[Dc__20]

I'll never forget the bubble run and making to the finals against Denver, but it's time for Jimmy to F right off. He's due to be paid 52m as a 36 year old, it's enough. Cry me a river.

Not living in this BS post justification chit American athletes do, dude wants more money, just go up to the podium and say I want to play elsewhere to secure more wealth, all this garbage about usage etc! Stop taking one legged threes then you wank

[greg4012]

Kuminga wouldn't make much sense at all. He's due for a new contract and wants to get paid something he doesn't seem to be worth. He also has all of the fit issues as a Wing that can't shoot. Not the answer, at all IMO

[AirP.]

A trade with Houston could be as simple as...
Butler and Rozier for VanVleet and Brooks, Miami would also save 8 million in the trade.

A trade with New Orleans could be as simple as...
Butler and Rozier for Ingram and McCollum, Miami also saves 4 million in the trade.

[Voltron914]

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They failed Jimmy as a franchise, that is indisputable.

Heat fans: “what do you mean? They put a team around Jimmy that led us to 4 eastern finals and 2 finals…they tried”.

No the hell they did not. That was lucky scouting, development, and the greatness of Jimmy Butler. We had no business being that semi-dominant for those years. It was all on the back of Himmy Butler. If your all star player is begging you to make a move and his window is closing, you make the move if it’s even feasible.

People are so easily spun. Jimmy and his reps will flood the market with the winning DNA stuff, his role being reduced and not getting any help. Anything but acknowledging that he saw it as disrespect that the Heat weren't crawling on hands and knees to give him that max extension. Because that truth aint marketable. Tell the truth. You want out because you're not getting your money.

pretty much.Riley gave him the stipulations for the max extension and he couldn't do it so now its all on the front office. This is an ugly divorce and us objective fans can understand both sides of the argument. the Giannis pipe dream was just that and not realistic and we are low on assets. the Lowry move was all jimmy so he has to own that one and we all saw what unfolded with Dame. it seemed like the whole NBA was against us getting him

[Flash4thewin]

They failed Jimmy as a franchise, that is indisputable.

Heat fans: “what do you mean? They put a team around Jimmy that led us to 4 eastern finals and 2 finals…they tried”.

No the hell they did not. That was lucky scouting, development, and the greatness of Jimmy Butler. We had no business being that semi-dominant for those years. It was all on the back of Himmy Butler. If your all star player is begging you to make a move and his window is closing, you make the move if it’s even feasible.

People are so easily spun. Jimmy and his reps will flood the market with the winning DNA stuff, his role being reduced and not getting any help. Anything but acknowledging that he saw it as disrespect that the Heat weren't crawling on hands and knees to give him that max extension. Because that truth aint marketable. Tell the truth. You want out because you're not getting your money.

pretty much.Riley gave him the stipulations for the max extension and he couldn't do it so now its all on the front office. This is an ugly divorce and us objective fans can understand both sides of the argument. the Giannis pipe dream was just that and not realistic and we are low on assets. the Lowry move was all jimmy so he has to own that one and we all saw what unfolded with Dame. it seemed like the whole NBA was against us getting him

Screw it, I'll bite. What were the so called stipulations that would lead to Pat giving Jimmy the contract he wanted? This should be good.

[Beenie]

People talk about the Lowry acquisition as if it was all bad which isnt accurate.

He had some key playoff moments on both ends of the court.

That said, he was overpaid and overweight.

[AirP.]

They failed Jimmy as a franchise, that is indisputable.

Heat fans: “what do you mean? They put a team around Jimmy that led us to 4 eastern finals and 2 finals…they tried”.

No the hell they did not. That was lucky scouting, development, and the greatness of Jimmy Butler. We had no business being that semi-dominant for those years. It was all on the back of Himmy Butler. If your all star player is begging you to make a move and his window is closing, you make the move if it’s even feasible.

People are so easily spun. Jimmy and his reps will flood the market with the winning DNA stuff, his role being reduced and not getting any help. Anything but acknowledging that he saw it as disrespect that the Heat weren't crawling on hands and knees to give him that max extension. Because that truth aint marketable. Tell the truth. You want out because you're not getting your money.

pretty much.Riley gave him the stipulations for the max extension and he couldn't do it so now its all on the front office. This is an ugly divorce and us objective fans can understand both sides of the argument. the Giannis pipe dream was just that and not realistic and we are low on assets. the Lowry move was all jimmy so he has to own that one and we all saw what unfolded with Dame. it seemed like the whole NBA was against us getting him

Lowery signing was a makeup signing to Butler because the FO let the finals starting PF walk for nothing in 2020 (ended up starting Mo Harkless at PF the next season) to prepare to chase Giannis the next offseason (which he signed very late that off-season and Miami extended Bam when that was known) and there wasn't anyone out there to get. Who else was there out there they could have gotten that summer? Ball? People were a little weary about NO letting him walk for nothing citing some possible medical issues.

[AirP.]

I would suspect that the Heat are talking with the NBA office about what they can and can't do with Butler, as in sending him away from the team.

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