Breaking down Heat's D (also, Arroyo is horrible)

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Funny enough, all those fans of other teams who never bother to post here normally or watch all our games, aren't commenting in this thread about how we're overreacting and that Spo isn't the problem.

[Dekadez]

Panic Defense is what I call this :|

[truthiness]

Great post Truthiness. How did you get all the photos? I would love for you to do one with the offense. Show 5 straight Sets were we run ISO's.

International League Pass

I actually started this by trying to keep track of offensive sets (iso, p&r, p&p etc) during the game, but I got bored quickly + it was kinda late here, so my concentration was not that good. I can tell you that sometime during the 2nd Q at least 1/3 of the Heat's offensive plays were ISOs, maybe as high as 1/2.

Sometimes it's hard to tell when, say, Wade or Lebron try to penetrate before the offense sets. They aren't really isolated, the rest of the team hasn't cleared half of the floor, but they still go at it alone, so I guess it can be counted as iso.

this is what we've been doing the last few years. we always leave a 3pt shooter open with one of our guys having to run towards him at the last minute. yet we were still pretty good defensively last year

There might be 2 factors in here:

1. Last season the Heat were not that high on anybody's radar. Most of the other teams' game plan was trying to slow down Wade and they didn't waste time to adapt their offense to Heat's defense.

Now, with great hype comes greater scrutiny. Teams come more prepared for the Heat. Not only do the players bring their A games, the coaching staffs are doing the same.

2. More and more teams employ motion based offensive systems. A few years ago I think there were far more teams depending heavily on ISO, generally teams with one star + scrubs (Phila with Iverson comes to mind)

I think with dampier we need to play a 2-3 zone,

We are a jump shot team so if we can hold off penetration with the 2-3 we basically make it a 'who's a better jump shot team' game, which I'll put my money on us lol

I wouldn't.
The Heat are not a good jump shooting team. At least not now.
Also, a team with shooters will kill a zone, which means all of the contenders, especially the Magic and Spurs (yeah, I think they're contenders this season. AGAIN).

playing zone defense = turn in your man card

That's such a fallacy.
Playing A GOOD zone doesn't mean standing around and planting a big white stiff under the board.
A GOOD zone requires just as much effort as a good man to man defense, and perhaps even more communication.

The difference between the 2, when played properly, is that you can use the zone to smother a team that likes to play iso, penetrate, post-up or play the pick&roll to death, while you use man to man defense to defend a team with good shooters and/or when you're more athletic.

Wonderful breakdown. I have always wondered why on earth we send so many players to help on every penetration. Its why our defense has been getting destroyed by any team that has an offense that is predicated on ball movement, which is pretty much every decent to great team in the league (except ours of course).

But honestly, I still feel like our offense is our biggest problem. The defense we run requires an incredible amount of player movement, which is ironically something we don't have on offense, but players always get a lot more lazy and a lot less committed on defense when they are struggling on offense. So basically our crappy offense exposes our defensive philosophy even more because guys aren't moving and rotating the way they should because they just went through yet another tough offensive set and are frustrated.

IMO this mad defense that tries to permanently have 3-4-5 defenders next to whoever has the ball forces the players to expend enormous amounts of energy that could be better spent doing something more useful than quadruple teaming TJ Ford.

What I think the Heat should play is just good, fundamentally sound defense. If it generates fast breaks, good, if not, the Heat are good enough to play in the half court. Just save all that energy to run a motion offense and you're set.

Also, I'd like to see pick and rolls with Wade and Lebron.
Who could stop that ?!?

In defense of Arroyo on passing up shots, the reason he passes up on those shots is because Spo discourages him from taking them. He is actually following Spo's rigid system. I believe Spo discourages him from taking those shots because it is not within his comfortable range, but lately he has improved. He can make them but he needs to be in rhythm.

He wants to take those shots, I can see it in his body language and reaction when he gets it but he goes for the extra pass because he is discouraged from being an outside shooter.

Arroyo has actually been behaving himself and has been the least of my worries on the court lately. He is actually trying really hard and does what Spo tells him, so the mistakes that come from him are really the fault out of Spo's systems. Somethings are still his mistakes (the unnecessary pump faking) but those are things that can be conditioned.

I have NOTHING against Arroyo personally. For all I know he's a great guy busting his ass both on offense as well as defense. I am blaming Spoelstra for not using him properly. On the other hand if he's the one hesitating to shoot when open (as opposed being told not to shoot), it's on him. If he's on the floor with Wade, Lebron and Bosh, he should be instructed to shoot when he's open. No hesitation. Especially from 3p. Otherwise just start House or JJ over him. Those 2 slashers need as much floor spacing as possible.

Just imagine Wade and Lebron playing a p&r at the top of the key, with 3 shooters spreading the floor, or 2 shooters and a big with range (Bosh). UNSTOPPABLE.

[TrueRain]

I've been complaining about the Heat's defense for 2 years. I figured it wasn't fair considering the personnel but I see the problem is Spo doesn't want to adapt to the players. All he wants is the players to adapt to the "system"

[HIF]

I guess this is the thread truthiness - I always have deep questions about people who need to put "truth" or I don't lie etc... in their names.

Our defense IS all about overcommitting and then having the speed and knowledge to cover for each other. If I could be bothered (and if I was technically talented enough and if I had the time) I could show you hundreds of plays from this season where this exact defense has worked.

It is the essence of our gameplan.

Sure it doesn't always work - what defense does.

[rainking]

I guess this is the thread truthiness - I always have deep questions about people who need to put "truth" or I don't lie etc... in their names.

Our defense IS all about overcommitting and then having the speed and knowledge to cover for each other. If I could be bothered (and if I was technically talented enough and if I had the time) I could show you hundreds of plays from this season where this exact defense has worked.

It is the essence of our gameplan.

Sure it doesn't always work - what defense does.

HIF, of course our defensive scheme works at times...Otherwise we would be giving up 120 points a game. The point that truthiness and others are making is the our defensive gameplan puts too much emphasis on multiple players converging on dribble penetration, leading to wide open three point attempts. This has been a problem for years with the Heat and I would argue that more often than not, the times that we think our defense is locking other teams down has simply been a product of shooters being off that night. The Orlando and Phoenix games earlier this season are a perfect example of this. During the Orlando game, Jeff Van Gundy was commenting about how this Heat team has the potential to be a dominant defensive team based on their performance that night. Maybe I saw a different game that Van Gundy, but what I saw was Orlando simply missing open 3's most of the night. I didn't think that Miami did a particularly good job of challenging shooters off of rotation.

[BronBron06]

Ever wonder why Joel "LACK OF DEFENSE on MAN to MAN" was EXPOSED this season w/o Jermaine

He only knows how to HELP DEFENSE :/ Thx to the SYSTEM

LoL $18M well spent

[HIF]

Seems we have a better record with Joel playing than when he doesn't.

[TMIMITW]

what it comes down to our scouting report, Our defenses needs to change on a team that have great point guard play and good shooters. This thread exposed all our issues in 10 slides. Why the hell isnt our staff doing this. Things like this Lebron cant denythat he is staying around the 3 pt line to much.

You know what maybe they are not getting the correct videos, and game films, because THEY MADE THERE BEST VIDEO GUY HEAD COACH

[FAB0L0US]

Another problem is how bigs are showing up when their man sets a screen. Normally you want your big to help and recover. But Z, Magloire and Howard are so slow that they can't really impede the process of the opposing PG, who gets around them easily. This results in the opposing PG having beaten Arroyo/House AND the opposing C/PF having a step on Z/Magloire/Howard. There are 2 men out of position and the Heat is playing 3 on 5. Before the defense scrambles to recover, the other team has already found and taken an open shot.

This is the one thing that pisses me off more than anything in the world watching the games. 9/10 times when this happen the Heat get smoked on defense, they are forced to over rotate, and the other team gets wide open shots. I HATE IT

[andre316]

I guess this is the thread truthiness - I always have deep questions about people who need to put "truth" or I don't lie etc... in their names.

Our defense IS all about overcommitting and then having the speed and knowledge to cover for each other. If I could be bothered (and if I was technically talented enough and if I had the time) I could show you hundreds of plays from this season where this exact defense has worked.

It is the essence of our gameplan.

Sure it doesn't always work - what defense does.

We're having our guys spend 50% more energy to shave a few points off the other team's total (maybe), but taking that energy away from the other side of the court is costing us even more points of our own. Hence, a net loss.

The argument is that even if this defensive system is so elite (and truthiness has illustrated the deficiencies every well-prepared team can see), we're getting diminishing returns on it considering all the movement that happens when we're trying to stop the ball disappears when we're in possession of it. That's fundamentally bad basketball.

And there's something to be said about how demoralizing it can be to give up three-pointers, especially when you're trying to make a run or someone on the other team has a hot hand.

[FAB0L0US]

I guess this is the thread truthiness - I always have deep questions about people who need to put "truth" or I don't lie etc... in their names.

Our defense IS all about overcommitting and then having the speed and knowledge to cover for each other. If I could be bothered (and if I was technically talented enough and if I had the time) I could show you hundreds of plays from this season where this exact defense has worked.

It is the essence of our gameplan.

Sure it doesn't always work - what defense does.

Good defensive teams dont scramble around the court like headless chickens, they only do that once the defense has broken down and someone is terribly uncovered.

GOOD DEFENSIVE TEAMS STAY WITH THEIR MEN AND FORCE TEAMS TO MAKE SHOTS, THEY DONT GIFT THEM!!

All to often this team has gifted wide open shots or easy pump fake to a drive combos that results in an easy layup or a foul. If this teams defensive scheme is to over rotate and hope teams dont manage to burn them, that is (Please Use More Appropriate Word). I dont think it is but what do I know.

[bastillon]

wow you know nothing about basketball... every great defense is helping out at all occasions. the real challenge is whether they can rotate back to their man fast enough, not whether they should leave him at all.

the only part of this that's correct is Arroyo. he really sucks.

[truthiness]

I guess this is the thread truthiness - I always have deep questions about people who need to put "truth" or I don't lie etc... in their names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness

Our defense IS all about overcommitting and then having the speed and knowledge to cover for each other. If I could be bothered (and if I was technically talented enough and if I had the time) I could show you hundreds of plays from this season where this exact defense has worked.

It is the essence of our gameplan.

Sure it doesn't always work - what defense does.

Actually, I'd argue that it fails more often than it works.
Especially against good teams. And the purpose of this team is to win MULTIPLE championships. To do that you have to beat those good teams. And any real contender knows how to execute, how to withstand the pressure, how to avoid traps and how to move the ball. In fact it was just proven that this defense was EASILY beaten even by mediocre teams that can move the ball.

If this was a team aiming to stay above .500, this defense might work.
But I challenge you to show me a team that won a title with a defense based on over committing and leaving open 3p shooters all over the place.

You don't have to tell me HOW this defense is supposed to work or what are its principles. I'm arguing that this defense is BAD and it's a waste of energy and this system will NOT lead to success. Just like I know the theory about lighting a fire using to sticks, but I'd still prefer to use a match or lighter.

And this **** is worse than Mike Brown in Cleveland. That guy could set up a defense, but was totally inept at putting a decent offensive system in place. Spoelstra's overcommiting and useless triple and quadruple-teaming on defense combined with nothing but iso on offense makes him 10 times worse than Mike Brown.

[Malinhion]

Excellent research by the OP.

[truthiness]

wow you know nothing about basketball... every great defense is helping out at all occasions. the real challenge is whether they can rotate back to their man fast enough, not whether they should leave him at all.

the only part of this that's correct is Arroyo. he really sucks.

why don't you watch some spurs games and come back later ?
see there what help D means, and then compare that to "everybody run after the ball like kids on the playground". maybe then you'll tell the difference between helping smart, while still not leaving yourself open and over-helping with reckless abandon, leaving yourself completely open to a secondary attack.

nowhere, be it war, martial arts, team sports, management, construction etc will this kind of strategy end in success. you don't put all your resources in one place, you don't put all your eggs in one basket, if you have a shoddy structure you don't send all the people and material to consolidate just one wall, if your supermarket chain is having problems you don't focus all your resources to save just one shop. it's common sense.

there was an article a while ago about adelman and phil jackson and their strategic prowess. it ended saying that while phil is playing chess, adelman was playing checkers. well, spoelstra is playing hungry hungry hippos. by himself. and losing.

[bastillon]

I guess this is the thread truthiness - I always have deep questions about people who need to put "truth" or I don't lie etc... in their names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness

Our defense IS all about overcommitting and then having the speed and knowledge to cover for each other. If I could be bothered (and if I was technically talented enough and if I had the time) I could show you hundreds of plays from this season where this exact defense has worked.

It is the essence of our gameplan.

Sure it doesn't always work - what defense does.

Actually, I'd argue that it fails more often than it works.
Especially against good teams. And the purpose of this team is to win MULTIPLE championships. To do that you have to beat those good teams. And any real contender knows how to execute, how to withstand the pressure, how to avoid traps and how to move the ball. In fact it was just proven that this defense was EASILY beaten even by mediocre teams that can move the ball.

If this was a team aiming to stay above .500, this defense might work.
But I challenge you to show me a team that won a title with a defense based on over committing and leaving open 3p shooters all over the place.

You don't have to tell me HOW this defense is supposed to work or what are its principles. I'm arguing that this defense is BAD and it's a waste of energy and this system will NOT lead to success. Just like I know the theory about lighting a fire using to sticks, but I'd still prefer to use a match or lighter.

And this **** is worse than Mike Brown in Cleveland. That guy could set up a defense, but was totally inept at putting a decent offensive system in place. Spoelstra's overcommiting and useless triple and quadruple-teaming on defense combined with nothing but iso on offense makes him 10 times worse than Mike Brown.

Mike Brown did excellent job in Cleveland. you won't put a better offensive system with LeBron and bucnh of shooters. put Mike D'Antoni in his place and they might miss the playoffs the last two years. you can only blame him for poor rotations in 2010 playoffs and causing matchup problems in 2009 playoffs because of defensive shifts (LeBron-Alston, West-Turkoglu). but overall he was doing pretty well. that team wasn't talented enough to win anything.

Spo is epically bad though, you can tell. he has no charisma whatsoever, those locker room speeches are pathetic as sh*t. he's playing some dumb pick and rolls without Bosh, as well as inserting Arroyo in the starting line-up.

[bastillon]

wow you know nothing about basketball... every great defense is helping out at all occasions. the real challenge is whether they can rotate back to their man fast enough, not whether they should leave him at all.

the only part of this that's correct is Arroyo. he really sucks.

why don't you watch some spurs games and come back later ?
see there what help D means, and then compare that to "everybody run after the ball like kids on the playground". maybe then you'll tell the difference between helping smart, while still not leaving yourself open and over-helping with reckless abandon, leaving yourself completely open to a secondary attack.

nowhere, be it war, martial arts, team sports, management, construction etc will this kind of strategy end in success. you don't put all your resources in one place, you don't put all your eggs in one basket, if you have a shoddy structure you don't send all the people and material to consolidate just one wall, if your supermarket chain is having problems you don't focus all your resources to save just one shop. it's common sense.

there was an article a while ago about adelman and phil jackson and their strategic prowess. it ended saying that while phil is playing chess, adelman was playing checkers. well, spoelstra is playing hungry hungry hippos. by himself. and losing.

first off all there's a considerable difference in style. Heat are anchoring their defense from the perimeter and trying to force as many TOVs as they can. it's reasonable given they don't really have inside presence like Tim Duncan. or no presence at all as a matter of fact.

the defense you wanna compare the Heat to is Celtics. they're gambling a lot as well, overhelp/gamble are Rondo favourite go-to moves on defense. KG does pretty much the same thing. their 2 best defenders are running around and disturbing offensive sets... the same way Heat do. the difference is that Celtics actually rotate and despite the fact that Ray is a poor individual defender he actually knows team defense and helps out his teammates. Pierce is better but no powerhouse either. it's just that KG is everywhere and most of the time he can recover on time (his teammates are covering for him if he can't, too).

most of the time Heat are playing great defense because of that. there's just lack of chemistry and defensive execution at times, and that's why the Heat collapse altogether when they face adversity. Celtics had that UBUNTU spirit from day 1, starting from Garnett and his team-first nature.

[Nupe_1911]

I generally do not have a large issue with the Heat D. The original poster is correct in some sense but most good defenses send multiple defenders to anyone penetrating the lane then attempt to get back to their primary man as quickly as possible or rotate players as needed. So in this respect I agree with HIF.

Obviously, the best defenses (Spurs, Lakers, Celtics) do not allow opposing guards to waltz into the lane 24/7 like the Heat currently do but this is primarily Spo.'s fault for starting Arroyo then allowing him to guard players he simply can not stay in front of. Really, Chalmers should be starting at PG since he is a better defender or Wade / Bron should be guarding the opposing pg while James Jones starts and guards the 2 or 3.

The Heat are not perfect but they have more than enough tools, if used properly, to crush 90% of the league.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Seems we have a better record with Joel playing than when he doesn't.

HIF, I can appreciate that you play the devil's advocate "support the coach and players who get blame at all costs" role on here, but at times it comes off as disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. Your answer to everything is just "play better", but if that were the case, there would never be a need for a coaching change or to get better players.

I don't know what it would take for you to turn on Spoelstra, but I feel like there is a part of you that would trade LeBron James before getting rid of Spo. I just don't understand why that is. If I told you before this season that we'd be hovering around .500 with James, Bosh and Wade on our team, would you suggest the coach had no part in this?

Yeah, the players deserve blame too, but we know the players can play better than this. They've proven it year in and year out. Wade led a team to a championship, LeBron led a team to the Finals, and Bosh took a couple crappy teams to the playoffs.

What has Spoelstra proven? Well, he helped Wade take a couple crappy teams to the playoffs, but I don't think those were exceptional coaching jobs. They were just about average, it could be argued they under or over achieved either season. And now he's got these 3 guys sitting with an almost .500 record.

Again, I'm on the Riley or bust bandwagon, so I'd only want Spo gone for the man himself. And I agree that for the most part, the vast majority of NBA coaches are interchangeable. But you can't put together 3 players like this, play like they've played, and then argue its the players fault. Because you really can't get better players than these ones.

Del Harris had an arguably more talented team than Phil Jackson did in LA. He had Shaq, Kobe, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel... and he couldn't take them ANYWHERE. Did those players just automatically get it by themselves when Phil came, or did Phil make the difference? I'm inclined to believe the latter.

By the same token that you can say Spo hasn't gotten his chance yet, you can also say he's never proven himself either. And right now, he's wilting under the spotlight. You know I've rooted for him to succeed and disagree with some of the more irrational posters. But where you and I differ, I'm willing to change my stance if someone proves me wrong (Beasley may do the same for me eventually). I don't know that you'd ever concede that Spo was in over his head.

Oh, and I picked out the Joel quote because that's just cherry picking, ignoring the fact that the entire team played worse the last 2 games, a large amount of that which can be attributed to Wade missing one, Haslem missing the other and Wade being horribly rusty in that 2nd game. And if you're going to credit Joel for those things, that's just ridiculous.

What you are ignoring is the fact that we were slowly but surely improving as a team as Joel was receiving less and less minutes, before not playing at all the last 2 games. And that Jamal was quietly very effective in the Indiana game, it wasn't rebounding or their bigs that killed us.