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Marion's contract extension???

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Post#41 » by heat4life » Tue May 20, 2008 2:17 pm

I don't know how a person who "watches" NBA games can be so sure that Marion is on the decline ALREADY because of his "stats". So he doesn't score 17.5pts, he scores 15.8. So he doesn't rebounds 9.9, he rebounds 10.8... :roll:

Let's ignore that he still outruns most youngsters on the open court, is always around the ball and comes out with positive plays that do not show on stat sheets, he plays one-on-one defense in addition to his opportunistic off the ball defense and gets you a double double without getting a single play called for him.

Let's compare him with Haslem who almost scores as many points... :roll:

Marion is going to have at the very least 3 years of the same type of production. If it comes down to us having to keep him, then resigning him for a 3-4 year deal for $40-$44 millions is not bad at all. You could even make the last year a team option if it helps you sleep at night.

It would be like paying Eddie Jones $10 million instead of $16 millions when he was scoring 18ppg for us. I think the fans would've been nicer with him then, don't you think?
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Post#42 » by Flash4thewin » Tue May 20, 2008 3:11 pm

We got Eddie Jones and Grant as final pieces to a championship team. Right now were there worst team in the league and investing in a hustle player whose numbers are on the decline doesnt make much sense when we have so many other needs.

Ben Wallace is a good comparison in that he left a team/system that maximized his talent and minimized his flaws. Do we have a Nash to give Marion easy buckets?

For everyone that complains that Beasley is small at 6'9/6'10 at pf Marion is freaking 6'6 without shoes :crazy:

Heat4life you cant argue that his numbers haven't been on the decline for the past few years and his game is based on his athletic ability which goes down in age.

"At the least an old Marion should be able to guard one-on-one without a problem even if he contributes 10ppg in a Bruce Bowen-type of role." You think thats worth 10 mil a year?


Not to get off topic but "if" Marion is to be traded when would he bring back the most for the Heat considering we dont want to take back contracts. Could we get more for him now or wait until the trading deadline.
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Post#43 » by heat4life » Tue May 20, 2008 4:06 pm

Flash4thewin wrote:We got Eddie Jones and Grant as final pieces to a championship team. Right now were there worst team in the league and investing in a hustle player whose numbers are on the decline doesnt make much sense when we have so many other needs.


If you think Pat Riley and Dwyane Wade are going to sit there and wait for players to develop like the Hawks, Sonics, Bulls etc you need think about rooting for another team. Yes Eddie Jones and Brian Grant were added to compliment Alonzo Mourning just like Shawn Marion, Haslem or other will be added to compliment Wade. This is about winning NOW. If you have been a Heat fan for along time you will know that. Are we going to win the championship next season? highly unlikely but don't think for a second that because Spoelstra is the coach that we are not going to get veterans in their primes over young players or rookies.

Your problem is that you see Marion as a "hustle" player only hence why you compare him to Udonis Haslem who makes a fair $6mil per season. Why can Marion be worth $10mil per?

Ben Wallace is a good comparison in that he left a team/system that maximized his talent and minimized his flaws. Do we have a Nash to give Marion easy buckets?


Where have you been? People are discussing Marion's status based on who we draft. Rose would be your Nash, then keeping Marion is obviously more attractive. If we get Beasley then trading Marion or allowing him to expire is more of an option. Either way, Marion is not Ben Wallace who always was one-way player. If you want check those things you love.....stats. Horrible comparison.

For everyone that complains that Beasley is small at 6'9/6'10 at pf Marion is freaking 6'6 without shoes :crazy:


Marion is a SF!!!!!! Just because D'Antoni played him at PF it doesn't mean that is his position. D'Antoni played his best 5 players and Marion was one of them. Either way, at 6'7 (since basketball is played with shoes), Marion was still one of the top PF!!! He proved to do it at this level. Beasley still needs to do that and until he does that, you can only hope. Nobody is saying that Beasley can't do it just that like Marion, he needs to show it.

Very few small PF have made it in this league. Barkley was 6'6 but had bulk at 250lbs. I don't want Al Harrington as my PF, playing on the perimeter. It defeats the purpose of having a low post presence. IF we draft Beasley (which I am in favor of as well), I want him to develop his body to bang down low and become more like Garnett. That is all I am saying.

Heat4life you cant argue that his numbers haven't been on the decline for the past few years and his game is based on his athletic ability which goes down in age.


Whatever floats your boat. I did not see a declining Marion on the court last season so there is no reason for me to think that he is going to stink next year or the year after that.

"At the least an old Marion should be able to guard one-on-one without a problem even if he contributes 10ppg in a Bruce Bowen-type of role." You think thats worth 10 mil a year?


If you know the NBA and how contracts work you would understand that MOST players who sign a contract in their primes are highly likely to be overpaid at the tail end of that contract. It happens and it will continue to happen for as long as contracts are guaranteed in this league. My point was that if you give Marion a 4 year deal worht 40-44 millions, you would still get 3 good years from him stat-wise (to satisfy fans like you) and by year 4 "IF" his play delcines, he could still be a good defensive player for us although an overpaid one maybe.

Bruce Bowen was never worth that money because he's never been anywhere close the player Marion is. Don't hate the player but instead the economics of the NBA.


Not to get off topic but "if" Marion is to be traded when would he bring back the most for the Heat considering we dont want to take back contracts. Could we get more for him now or wait until the trading deadline.


Again including me, I have yet to read ANYONE objecting to trading Marion or letting him expire but there are some ridiculous trades for picks or young crappy players that makes no sense at all. That shows how undervalued Shawn Marion is a player and as an expiring contract.

I trust that Riley would do the best for the team, whether that includes Marion or not but let's not trash a good player to make a point.
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Post#44 » by SJ2100 » Tue May 20, 2008 4:40 pm

We could always try to get him to agree to a Hinrich-type of declining deal. Does anyone know how much of a drop-off, year-to-year, is allowed in those types of contracts?

I think both Hinrich and Ben (ironically) have contracts that decline by a million each year, except one year (3rd year I believe), they only lose half a million.

The problem with that, however, is trying to convince him to sign next year for cheap, since he will want that money to be replaced up front.

Is it allowed, under the CBA, to offer a 4 year extension paying him 12.5, 11.5, 10, 8.5?
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Post#45 » by SJ2100 » Tue May 20, 2008 4:44 pm

MartyConlonJr wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



You can't use Haslem's bird rights like that. You either renounce him to clear up space, or hold on to his bird rights which would take up max contract space until signed.

Rose will be at aroung 5 mill, Haslem's rights at 13 mill, Wade at around 18 mill, Marion at probably 15 mill, Wright at maybe 3 mill, Cook around 2 mill. That's 56 mill then 5 roster spots for a total of another 2 or 3 mill, putting you at the salary cap and leaving you with MLE. You can't do what you are proposing.


Well, assuming we get Marion at 10 mil instead of 15, since nobody is proposing an extension at 15 per, what would our cap-room be that summer if we were to renounce Blount and whoever we get for Banks, but not Haslem? And if we were to renounce Haslem, I assume we would just clear 6 million more of cap room?

If cap room wasn't going to work out, we could always use Blount's expiring deal at the deadline to add a low-post presence, as many teams will be trying to free space to make a run at LBJ and Wade.
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Post#46 » by heat4life » Tue May 20, 2008 5:39 pm

SJ2100 wrote:We could always try to get him to agree to a Hinrich-type of declining deal. Does anyone know how much of a drop-off, year-to-year, is allowed in those types of contracts?

I think both Hinrich and Ben (ironically) have contracts that decline by a million each year, except one year (3rd year I believe), they only lose half a million.

The problem with that, however, is trying to convince him to sign next year for cheap, since he will want that money to be replaced up front.

Is it allowed, under the CBA, to offer a 4 year extension paying him 12.5, 11.5, 10, 8.5?


I was thinking about the same thing the other day but I am not too familiar with the rules on such deals since they are not that common.
Also, there's got to be a reason why teams are not doing more of those deals or maybe agents just don't like them.
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Post#47 » by Flash4thewin » Tue May 20, 2008 9:15 pm

If the contract goes down each year wouldn't that affect the players next contract? Isnt Marion most effective at pf because he used his speed to out rebound slower players, an advantage he would lose moving to sf?
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Post#48 » by SA37 » Tue May 20, 2008 10:18 pm

No star money for non-star players: that has got to be the attitude.

Marion is a very good player in this league, but he is not worth the $10+ million per season he'll be looking for. Unless he comes down from that asking price, I don't see how the Heat can afford to not move him.

If we don't land a top-2 pick, I think he'll be shopped with the pick.

Marion and the #3/4 for Carmelo and filler would be something for Miami to explore.
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Post#49 » by MartyConlonJr » Tue May 20, 2008 11:24 pm

SJ2100 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Well, assuming we get Marion at 10 mil instead of 15, since nobody is proposing an extension at 15 per, what would our cap-room be that summer if we were to renounce Blount and whoever we get for Banks, but not Haslem? And if we were to renounce Haslem, I assume we would just clear 6 million more of cap room?

If cap room wasn't going to work out, we could always use Blount's expiring deal at the deadline to add a low-post presence, as many teams will be trying to free space to make a run at LBJ and Wade.


For starters, it's laughable to assume Marion is going to take $10 mill IMO. He basically forced trades because he wasn't getting $20 mill a year offers, and wanted it enough to go from one of the best, most exciting teams that perfectly catered for his flaws to the worst team in the league. I can't imagine he takes less than 13-15 mill a year. Which is why I am consistently up for trades like Marion for LaFrentz or Marbury provided we get some young talent and clear Blounts contract out with him, because to me, Marion's contract is his real value. I do think it would be wiser to hold on to him till through the offseason, and maybe to the trade deadline next year though, as his value will only go up when teams get desperate like last year to add the missing piece.

Anyway, here is our cap breakdown:

08-09
Wade 14,410,581
Blount 7,350,000
Haslem 6,575,000
Banks 4,176,000
Parker 1,600,000 (I think we paid out 800k of 2.4 mill)
Cook 1,273,200
-------------------
$35,384,781

Then add
Marion 17,180,000 (if he takes his option, or add his extension salary if he doesn't take the option and gets an extension)

Then add whatever pick we get (based on last years salaries - they'll probably be a fraction higher)
1st pick 4,662,000
2nd pick 4,171,200
3rd pick 3,745,800
4th pick 3,377,160

Then decide if you use the MLE or LLE
MLE 5,500,000
LLE 1,910,000

Then decide on whether to re-sign
Davis
J-Will
Alonzo

Then add up your rostered players and add one min salary for every missing player up to 11. That's your cap figure.
Min salary 442,114

So in your deal I guess it would be
35,384,781 (existing)
10,000,000 (Marion)
3,377,160 (At least 4th pick)
No use of MLE, LLE or re-sign of players)
4 x 442,114

Making us $50,530,397 in salary cap for next season

09-10

Wade 15,779,912
Marion 10,000,000
Blount 7,962,500
Haslem 7,100,000
Banks 4,464,000
Cook 1,362,120
#4th pick 3,630,480
-----------------------
$50,299,012

Then decide if you use the MLE or LLE
MLE 5,600,000
LLE 1,990,000

Then add up your rostered players and add one min salary for every missing player up to 11.
Min salary 457,588

09-10 cap $52,129,364

10-11
Marion 10,000,000
Banks 4,752,000
Cook 2,169,856
#4th pick 4,913,007
-----------------------
21,834,863

Now Wade and Haslem have cap holds to retain them. Now as the cap should be around 62 mill by then, the max salary for Wade will be 18.6 mill. Haslem is 150% of his last salary.

Wade 18,600,000
Haslem 10,500,000

We either use the cap holds, or sign the guys to a contract, and they count for that. Wade will probably command the max, Haslem probably less than 10.5 mill, more like 8 or so.

Then add our cap hold for 10-11 which will be at least a million and thats assuming we are the best team in the league, more likely we'll be around the middle of the league.
1,700,000

Then add up your rostered players and add one min salary for every missing player up to 11.
Min salary 473,604

So best case
21,834,863 (existing players)
18,600,000 (Wade)
8,000,000 (Haslem)
1,700,000 (#15th pick)
473,604 x 4
--------------------------
$52,029,279

We would have just under $10 million to sign Bosh, who is eligible for the same 18.6 million Wade is, and we have:
Not used our MLE for 3 seasons, not used our LLE for 3 seasons, never re-signed a free agent who panned out, somehow managed to sign Marion to half the contract he wanted, signed Haslem to a relativley going-rate contract despite him probably deserving more for taking a cheap contract the first time around, ran with no depth for 3 years.

It's just not feasable to keep all our players, and Marion is the guy who is already 30 and relys on athleticism who wants big money, which is why he probably shouldn't be here after next season.
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Post#50 » by Hoops23 » Mon May 26, 2008 10:20 pm

Sun-Sentinel
Listen to any Dwyane Wade offseason comments and the constant is the desire to play an entire season alongside Shawn Marion.

It's "Shawn this" and "Shawn that" as Wade goes through a roster that remains very much under reconstruction.

Assuming no one in today's NBA climate (when everyone is saving toward the 2010 summer of LeBron, Dwyane and Bosh) is going to be in a spending mood this summer, it would be difficult to fathom Marion bypassing such a sum.

That's when Pat Riley will take charge of the situation, deciding whether Marion is worth such a sum to the Heat next season, and how long to play it out year by year with Marion

It will be an interesting dynamic. One on hand, anything that makes Wade happy should make the Heat happy. On the other, this is a roster so lacking in depth that there is plenty to say about utilizing that $17.8 million on multiple players in a trade.
Wade want Marion! Is it going to be difficult for the Heat to decide to on Marion's contract?

$18m? I think Heat should rather use the money for two players ($11m and $7m).

If we extend Marion, I wish its just for a year to keep our cap space in 2010 if not next year. WE need to trade Banks for a contract that Blake has. There are a lot of trades I've seen in this board which are conflict to what Riley's desire of cap space in 2010.

Should Miami sign Marion to an extention and accomodate Wade OR trade Marion?
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Post#51 » by DayofMourning » Mon May 26, 2008 10:32 pm

Trade Marion.

It's easy for players to fall for their teammates and Marion is a great example of a player who would keep Wade happy, but could hurt the team in achieving it's ultimate goal. Marion is an excellent player, but the freedom his contract gives us is worth much more. What it all boils down to is 2010. Taking the chance at acquiring a player like Bosh or James at their age and ability is a risk worth taking and Marion just so happens to be the odd man out for financial reasons.
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Post#52 » by Lane1974 » Mon May 26, 2008 10:35 pm

there is no rush to trade him now for that purpose, he is expiring if he opts in, lets see him play and go from there... if you're trading him to get guys who will play here and be a major major piece (ala Brand or Boozer) that's something else
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Post#53 » by Hoops23 » Mon May 26, 2008 10:46 pm

Keeping Marion with the Heat unsigned this coming season is a good option for Miami but I'm worried about the effect. Keeping him is one sided in favor of the Heat. I'm really worried on how Marion play if he's unsigned for an extension and is asking for a trade that would keep him unhappy and unmotivated that will affect that Heat season as the Bulls with Gordon and Deng last season.

I'm down to two decision, give him an extension or trade him.
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Post#54 » by Lane1974 » Mon May 26, 2008 10:50 pm

they can trade him in the middle of the season if he sucks. Him not giving effort isn't going to help him this offseason when he goes for a new contract with another team. He always busted his butt in Phoenix and he didn't like his situation there.
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Post#55 » by Heat11114 » Mon May 26, 2008 11:18 pm

Hoops23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

If he wants his money and the Heat will not give him the extension, then how can he get it without being traded or signing with the Heat. How can he be motivated knowing he will not get his money next year if not given an extension???

He is not Artest nor any of those players you mentioned and you're exagerating it by comparing him to those players. Just a lack of motivation and inspiration will affect his game.

You mentioned he's on the contract year but you cannot even answered how he could get his money.


So doesn't half-assing it, then having no one to overpay him put him in a horrible situation too? He'll be 31, if he has a big season he puts himself in a much better position then if he flops. If he flops he's looking at potentially MLE money.
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Post#56 » by Hoops23 » Mon May 26, 2008 11:25 pm

Him giving his effort or not will not affect his offseason when he goes for a new contract with another team because no team have enough cap space to sign for $10m or more. Every team knows what's Marion is worth and one season will not affect he's stock expecilly if you're just giving him $8m.

Since Marion knows he will lose a lot of money if not given the extension, he will ask for a trade to avoid it. . . Athletes should respect their contract but todays athletes are selfish and about money/business.
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Post#57 » by LEIF » Mon May 26, 2008 11:29 pm

Marion definately takes his PO this offseason, lets be honest he will never sniff $17 mill again.

Miami is in the drivers seat in this situation because say we get Beasley and he pans out as a top notch PF, we wont need to spend our FA money in 09 or 2010 on a Brand/Boozer type player, so we can either reup Marion if he fits in our plans or spend the money on other talent.

either way I dont see many ways that Marion ISNT playing in Miami next season.
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Post#58 » by Hoops23 » Mon May 26, 2008 11:45 pm

Miami is in the drivers seat in this situation because say we get Beasley and he pans out as a top notch PF, we wont need to spend our FA money in 09 or 2010 on a Brand/Boozer type player, so we can either reup Marion if he fits in our plans or spend the money on other talent.
I like you're idea of keeping Marion if we draft Beasley but for the right price.

Just like I said, trade him or give him an extension. Not really sold of keeping him with the team unsigned.
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Post#59 » by heat4life » Tue May 27, 2008 2:29 pm

From Marion's perspective, his best option is to start negotiating a contract extention with the Heat THIS summer to get an idea where he stands with Miami. If the Heat offers something appealing to him, he signs an extension after this season. I don't see Marion opting out at all. Even he knows he is not going to get $17mil again from anyone.

I believe Marion wants to feel wanted and wants to feel the love of being an important piece to a winning team. Riley tends to reward and rub the egos of players who work hard and play all out on every play. Marion fits that bill. I could see a $12mil for 3 years-type of extension as a realistic option.

I also think that Riley's efforts are NOT going to be to get rid of his second best player but instead to get rid of the bad contracts of Mark Blount and Marcus Banks. I could see picks being packaged or young players just to rid ourselves of those contracts.

Last time Riley was in this situation he gathered "assets". I believe that getting expiring contracts could net us an elite player via trade or in FA when those contracts expire.

Either way, keeping flexibility is going to be a priority so unless your name is D.Wade, you will not see a contract longer than 3 years.
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Post#60 » by Hoops23 » Wed May 28, 2008 9:56 am

I agree, Marion might agree to a 3 year deal but maybe something like $14m, $13m and $12m. Marion will likely agree to that deal because he knows Miami doesn't have anything to lose if they don't sign him but more on him.

Well yeah, its a big possibility Riley wants to get rids of the contract of Banks and Blount but we don't have the assets to do that because our 1st pick next year is traded to Minny. Our pick this year is too valuable to trade and a franchise changing player like Bron and KG are not available.

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