2019 Heat Offseason thread 4.0- Yimmy and the Kids!

[MettaWorldPanda]

Looking at those Wesbrook figures makes me think we just need to walk away if this chit is going to cost us anymore then one young player. Even the one young player sounds excessive as I would rather just wait for something to open up for Beal in the next year or two. Right now i think the upgrade is negligible. What are we going to improve from the 6th seed to the 3rd? I think the duo of a healthy motivated Dragic going into his free agent year and Point Justise might even broach a ceiling that could get us to a 4th or 5th seed. Cut Maten and sign a veteran with whatever money we have left.

[Daffy]

Jimmy and Eastbrook expire the same offseason?

I mean, think about it.... About 34 years old for both guys. That's going to be almost $90 million off the books. We'll be able to go after 2-3 max players that summer.

If they play decent and build chemistry we also have the option to resign them for way cheaper contracts and target another young max player or 2 to add the core.

[slick_watts]

thunder fan here. this deal will get done. they are just negotiating. you guys don't know sam presti- russell westbrook is gone and if miami is the only team that wants him you'll get him. this isn't getting dragged out for months like AD or something.

I don't thin Presti will move him for essentially nothing which is what our FO is offering

moving westbrook for the thunder is financially and flexibility motivated. don't let barry jackson's column fool you. sure they want whatever useful players and assets they can get. but if they can just get off his salary and maneuver under the tax that will be something they take, ultimately. sam presti is moving too overtly for this to drag out. there are numerous instances where he has acted extremely fast when the optics of the team's integrity was at stake. this is one of those times.

also- westbrook's agent is shai gilgeous-alexander's agent. sam presti is sensitive to those things as well.

[dean456]

Read on Twitter

Spoiler:

Oklahoma City has asked the Heat for multiple young, valuable assets in trade conversations involving guard Russell Westbrook, and Miami - at least to this point - has refused, according to a league source briefed on the discussions by one of the teams.

OKC has asked the Heat to include impressive rookie guard Tyler Herro in the proposed trade, but the Heat has been very reluctant to do that. Because Herro signed with the Heat on Wednesday, he cannot be included in any trade for 30 days, but that isn’t viewed as an obstacle.


At another point in the discussions this week, the Thunder asked the Heat to include two among Herro, Bam Adebayo and Justise Winslow, according to a source in touch with one of the two teams. The Heat also is opposed to including Adebayo, whom Erik Spoelstra ranked among the best centers in the league in the final months of last season.


Though the Heat very much would like to add Westbrook, those OKC demands had resulted in a stalement in conversations as of Wednesday evening.

Whether the Heat would be willing to include Winslow remains to be seen. Though the Heat is pleased with Winslow and views him as a core piece, his value might be diminished somewhat with Westbrook here because Winslow does some of his best work while playing on the ball - an opportunity which would come less frequently with Westbrook on the Heat.


One reason OKC wants valuable young assets from the Heat stems from the fact that Miami couldn’t give the Thunder any draft picks because OKC - through the Clippers - owns Miami’s first-round picks in 2021 (unprotected) and 2023 (protected).


ESPN front-office expert Bobby Marks, during a conversation at a summer league game this week, noted that Miami isn’t even permitted to trade another first-round pick because protections on the 2023 pick extend into 2026, and teams cannot trade first-round picks that extend beyond seven years.


The Heat and OKC would be permitted to amend protections on the 2021 and 2023 picks, or change the years that those two picks will be sent to the Thunder if both sides choose, because the Thunder own both of those Miami picks.


The Heat is willing to give OKC contracts that add up to slightly more that Westbrook’s $38.5 million salary next season. That’s a necessity because Miami is operating under a $138.9 million hard cap next season and is less than $1 million below that figure, with 14 under contract.


The league requires teams begin the season with at least 13 players and then move to a minimum of 14 after a couple of weeks.

With OKC seeking short-term contracts, in addition to draft picks or promising cheap young players, any permutation of the trade likely would need to include Goran Dragic, due $19.2 million next season in the final year of his deal.

Meyers Leonard, at $11.2 million, is Miami’s only other expiring contract that carries significant money. Any trade involving Leonard cannot be announced until mid-September because of arcane league rules involving players moved in sign-and-trades, as Leonard was in the Jimmy Butler deal.


Derrick Jones Jr., at $1.6 million, is the other Heat veteran on an expiring deal.


Others potentially in play include Kelly Olynyk (due $26.1 million over the final two seasons of his contract) and James Johnson (due $31 million over his final two seasons).

It’s unclear if OKC would have any interest in taking back former Thunder guard Dion Waiters, who’s due $27.1 million over the next two seasons. Though the Heat has made Waiters available in trades in the past year, Waiters would have value in a backcourt with Westbrook because of Waiters’ improved three-point shooting.


Because Westbrook is due $172 million over the next four seasons, the Heat would prefer to send the Thunder only players whose contracts would help expedite a deal - in most cases, players who aren’t considered to have a longterm future here.


But OKC believes more compensation is warranted for a highly durable player who has averaged a triple-double three consecutive years and was the league’s MVP in 2016-17.

As of mid-week, the Heat was unsure if there were any other teams seriously pursuing Westbrook, and Miami might dig in further on not giving up valuable assets if it has no competition for the eight-time All Star guard. If there is another team pursuing Westbrook, it hasn’t leaked publicly.


After watching the Thunder trade Paul George, Westbrook reportedly would like to be traded and has named the Heat as a team that appeals to him. That - combined with the Heat’s strong interest - led some in the league to conclude that a Westbrook trade to Miami is inevitable.


But the stalemate on players must be resolved. The Heat could wait out the Thunder, daring OKC to begin the season with Westbrook, which seems unlikely, or find a more appealing offer elsewhere, which certainly cannot be ruled out.


Or the Heat eventually could succumb to an extent on OKC’s demands.


But Miami, at this point, has been reluctant to give up young assets for a 30-year-old due to earn $41.4 million in 2020-21, $44.2 million in 2021-22 and $47.1 million in 2022-23.


One key for OKC might be finding a second team that makes an offer strong enough to either accept or use to potentially entice the Heat to offer more. It’s unclear if the Pistons, initially linked to Westbrook in media speculation, have legitimate interest. If the Pistons were interested, Detroit could hypothetically could offer something Miami cannot (a first-round draft pick in the next year or two) plus the expiring contracts of Reggie Jackson and Langston Galloway and another piece.

Besides the Heat and OKC’s inability to agree on compensation, OKC also would like to take in less money than it’s sending out in the trade because the Thunder is $2.25 million above the luxury tax threshold and would prefer to get back under the threshold to avoid the onerous repeater tax.

That’s something the Heat cannot accommodate because it is not permitted at any point in the next year to surpass the $138.9 million hard cap.


That’s why a third team would be helpful in the deal, but that would end up being moot if OKC and Miami cannot reach an agreement on players to be included.

The Heat likely would have been leery about including Herro in a trade even before summer league, but Miami’s belief in the rookie guard has only strengthened because of his strong work in summer league.

In six summer league games, Herro is averaging 19.5 points, 4.3 rebounds and 3.8 assists while shooting 39.5 percent overall and 33.3 percent on three-pointers. He’s 24 for 25 on free throws and his play has exceeded the Heat’s expectations, according to a league source.

I think both teams have agreed about what players are moving and they are now moving forward to involve a third team to finalize the deal. Otherwise I don't think we would have signed Herro yesterday. We wouldn't risk a deal getting done by basically saying F you to OKC by taking Herro off the board at this stage. If he was always off the board we would have signed him earlier.

[greg4012]

Assuming we give up no young guys, the real question becomes - Who the hell starts?

Herro's shooting will be much needed, Justise really needs minutes at PG to keeping growing. Waiters has an ego, Can Westbrook work off the ball?

Dion should be the one off the ball

Justise I don't think will start if we get Russ

Russ-Dion-Butler-PF-C (Bam, Leonard, Olynk?)

Bench : Winslow, Herro, Nunn, mix of Leonard/Olynk. JJ I feel is gone so I haven't included him in anything lol

It's hard to say since we don't know who is truly staying or going. Nunn looks to me as a Dion replacement for cheap. He had some fun times with us but showing up out of shape is a big no no in Heat culture.

I'd move Dion to the scoring 6th man role and start Butler and Winslow at the wings.

The issue with that is that it makes it more difficult to find sufficient minutes that fully utilize Waiter and Herro as shooters. They're both pretty much strictly shooting guards. Whereas Justise can really slot in anywhere 1-3 and should be the main backup PG. That's why it might make most sense to have Waiters starting as a floor spacer at the 3, have Herro as his backup, and have Winslow as a do it all super sub for 1-3 (mostly 1 and 3)

[Lilseb93]

While I think it's true that OKC is asking for young assets, Barry tends to be hyperbolic.

[RexBoyWonder]

Assuming we give up no young guys, the real question becomes - Who the hell starts?

Herro's shooting will be much needed, Justise really needs minutes at PG to keeping growing. Waiters has an ego, Can Westbrook work off the ball?

Dion should be the one off the ball

Justise I don't think will start if we get Russ

Russ-Dion-Butler-PF-C (Bam, Leonard, Olynk?)

Bench : Winslow, Herro, Nunn, mix of Leonard/Olynk. JJ I feel is gone so I haven't included him in anything lol

It's hard to say since we don't know who is truly staying or going. Nunn looks to me as a Dion replacement for cheap. He had some fun times with us but showing up out of shape is a big no no in Heat culture.

So basically this means we're insisting on keeping a..bench player?

I'm not sure Justise can be maximized in that role, he's not a 3 and D type player.

Looks to me OKC should be much more desperate to make this deal, I'm honestly not sold that in 2 years Westbrook is that much better (if at all) then Winslow at PG. Shooting and defense are already in Justise's pocket, and his offense keeps improving. Not to mention age and contract.

[greg4012]

Looking at those Wesbrook figures makes me think we just need to walk away if this chit is going to cost us anymore then one young player. Even the one young player sounds excessive as I would rather just wait for something to open up for Beal in the next year or two. Right now i think the upgrade is negligible. What are we going to improve from the 6th seed to the 3rd? I think the duo of a healthy motivated Dragic going into his free agent year and Point Justise might even broach a ceiling that could get us to a 4th or 5th seed. Cut Maten and sign a veteran with whatever money we have left.

I agree with the general approach. Anything more than 1 young guy and it's not worth it. 1 young guy is still tough, but I think worth doing.

But, with regards to Beal, I just don't know what could possibly open up that won't cost us SIGNIFICANT assets. The only avenue is taking on Wall's contract.

[MettaWorldPanda]

Guys I don't this trade is happening... Just heard Stan Van Gundy on 790.. Presti in not giving up RW for expiring contracts and Miami is not giving up any of the young players... OKC will hold to Westbrook until the trading deadline in see if someone else is interested at that point.

I think we gotten more than we expected by getting Butler and I am excited about our team as it is.. Maybe one of the young guys can make the leap to borderline star.. If we want a rebuilt that is sustainable we need to hold for a better opportunity to come along

I mean you look at the depth chart as is and with the young players we are adding like Nunn, Herro, and a 2nd year Robinson. I'm excited as is and by far we have exceeded expectations of this offseason. If Winslow explodes this year i'm going to be so glad we didn't waste our time and resources trading for that albatross contract.

[batterybro42]

Read on Twitter

Spoiler:

Oklahoma City has asked the Heat for multiple young, valuable assets in trade conversations involving guard Russell Westbrook, and Miami - at least to this point - has refused, according to a league source briefed on the discussions by one of the teams.

OKC has asked the Heat to include impressive rookie guard Tyler Herro in the proposed trade, but the Heat has been very reluctant to do that. Because Herro signed with the Heat on Wednesday, he cannot be included in any trade for 30 days, but that isn’t viewed as an obstacle.


At another point in the discussions this week, the Thunder asked the Heat to include two among Herro, Bam Adebayo and Justise Winslow, according to a source in touch with one of the two teams. The Heat also is opposed to including Adebayo, whom Erik Spoelstra ranked among the best centers in the league in the final months of last season.


Though the Heat very much would like to add Westbrook, those OKC demands had resulted in a stalement in conversations as of Wednesday evening.

Whether the Heat would be willing to include Winslow remains to be seen. Though the Heat is pleased with Winslow and views him as a core piece, his value might be diminished somewhat with Westbrook here because Winslow does some of his best work while playing on the ball - an opportunity which would come less frequently with Westbrook on the Heat.


One reason OKC wants valuable young assets from the Heat stems from the fact that Miami couldn’t give the Thunder any draft picks because OKC - through the Clippers - owns Miami’s first-round picks in 2021 (unprotected) and 2023 (protected).


ESPN front-office expert Bobby Marks, during a conversation at a summer league game this week, noted that Miami isn’t even permitted to trade another first-round pick because protections on the 2023 pick extend into 2026, and teams cannot trade first-round picks that extend beyond seven years.


The Heat and OKC would be permitted to amend protections on the 2021 and 2023 picks, or change the years that those two picks will be sent to the Thunder if both sides choose, because the Thunder own both of those Miami picks.


The Heat is willing to give OKC contracts that add up to slightly more that Westbrook’s $38.5 million salary next season. That’s a necessity because Miami is operating under a $138.9 million hard cap next season and is less than $1 million below that figure, with 14 under contract.


The league requires teams begin the season with at least 13 players and then move to a minimum of 14 after a couple of weeks.

With OKC seeking short-term contracts, in addition to draft picks or promising cheap young players, any permutation of the trade likely would need to include Goran Dragic, due $19.2 million next season in the final year of his deal.

Meyers Leonard, at $11.2 million, is Miami’s only other expiring contract that carries significant money. Any trade involving Leonard cannot be announced until mid-September because of arcane league rules involving players moved in sign-and-trades, as Leonard was in the Jimmy Butler deal.


Derrick Jones Jr., at $1.6 million, is the other Heat veteran on an expiring deal.


Others potentially in play include Kelly Olynyk (due $26.1 million over the final two seasons of his contract) and James Johnson (due $31 million over his final two seasons).

It’s unclear if OKC would have any interest in taking back former Thunder guard Dion Waiters, who’s due $27.1 million over the next two seasons. Though the Heat has made Waiters available in trades in the past year, Waiters would have value in a backcourt with Westbrook because of Waiters’ improved three-point shooting.


Because Westbrook is due $172 million over the next four seasons, the Heat would prefer to send the Thunder only players whose contracts would help expedite a deal - in most cases, players who aren’t considered to have a longterm future here.


But OKC believes more compensation is warranted for a highly durable player who has averaged a triple-double three consecutive years and was the league’s MVP in 2016-17.

As of mid-week, the Heat was unsure if there were any other teams seriously pursuing Westbrook, and Miami might dig in further on not giving up valuable assets if it has no competition for the eight-time All Star guard. If there is another team pursuing Westbrook, it hasn’t leaked publicly.


After watching the Thunder trade Paul George, Westbrook reportedly would like to be traded and has named the Heat as a team that appeals to him. That - combined with the Heat’s strong interest - led some in the league to conclude that a Westbrook trade to Miami is inevitable.


But the stalemate on players must be resolved. The Heat could wait out the Thunder, daring OKC to begin the season with Westbrook, which seems unlikely, or find a more appealing offer elsewhere, which certainly cannot be ruled out.


Or the Heat eventually could succumb to an extent on OKC’s demands.


But Miami, at this point, has been reluctant to give up young assets for a 30-year-old due to earn $41.4 million in 2020-21, $44.2 million in 2021-22 and $47.1 million in 2022-23.


One key for OKC might be finding a second team that makes an offer strong enough to either accept or use to potentially entice the Heat to offer more. It’s unclear if the Pistons, initially linked to Westbrook in media speculation, have legitimate interest. If the Pistons were interested, Detroit could hypothetically could offer something Miami cannot (a first-round draft pick in the next year or two) plus the expiring contracts of Reggie Jackson and Langston Galloway and another piece.

Besides the Heat and OKC’s inability to agree on compensation, OKC also would like to take in less money than it’s sending out in the trade because the Thunder is $2.25 million above the luxury tax threshold and would prefer to get back under the threshold to avoid the onerous repeater tax.

That’s something the Heat cannot accommodate because it is not permitted at any point in the next year to surpass the $138.9 million hard cap.


That’s why a third team would be helpful in the deal, but that would end up being moot if OKC and Miami cannot reach an agreement on players to be included.

The Heat likely would have been leery about including Herro in a trade even before summer league, but Miami’s belief in the rookie guard has only strengthened because of his strong work in summer league.

In six summer league games, Herro is averaging 19.5 points, 4.3 rebounds and 3.8 assists while shooting 39.5 percent overall and 33.3 percent on three-pointers. He’s 24 for 25 on free throws and his play has exceeded the Heat’s expectations, according to a league source.

I think both teams have agreed about what players are moving and they are now moving forward to involve a third team to finalize the deal. Otherwise I don't think we would have signed Herro yesterday. We wouldn't risk a deal getting done by basically saying F you to OKC by taking Herro off the board at this stage. If he was always off the board we would have signed him earlier.

I think Riley did just that, pulling Herro off the board was a you'll take what you can get and you will like it type of move

I don't hate it, I don't love it

Was excited about getting Russ would have been willing to see Winslow go, but now I just kinda feel like we will be decent next year, but not great, not a contender. Jimmy makes us better, but he does not make us a real player. So what did we really accomplish here?

The time to strike is now, I admired the aggressive approach, kinda hope we have another move out there that we are willing to make. I want a deal now, but realistically we just need to add another piece prior to the deadline

[MettaWorldPanda]

Looking at those Wesbrook figures makes me think we just need to walk away if this chit is going to cost us anymore then one young player. Even the one young player sounds excessive as I would rather just wait for something to open up for Beal in the next year or two. Right now i think the upgrade is negligible. What are we going to improve from the 6th seed to the 3rd? I think the duo of a healthy motivated Dragic going into his free agent year and Point Justise might even broach a ceiling that could get us to a 4th or 5th seed. Cut Maten and sign a veteran with whatever money we have left.

I agree with the general approach. Anything more than 1 young guy and it's not worth it. 1 young guy is still tough, but I think worth doing.

But, with regards to Beal, I just don't know what could possibly open up that won't cost us SIGNIFICANT assets. The only avenue is taking on Wall's contract.

Beal is going to have to most likely come via free agency so hopefully he does not sign his extension. He will have to demand a trade to Miami for us to get him for our current assets.

[greg4012]

Assuming we give up no young guys, the real question becomes - Who the hell starts?

Herro's shooting will be much needed, Justise really needs minutes at PG to keeping growing. Waiters has an ego, Can Westbrook work off the ball?

Dion should be the one off the ball

Justise I don't think will start if we get Russ

Russ-Dion-Butler-PF-C (Bam, Leonard, Olynk?)

Bench : Winslow, Herro, Nunn, mix of Leonard/Olynk. JJ I feel is gone so I haven't included him in anything lol

It's hard to say since we don't know who is truly staying or going. Nunn looks to me as a Dion replacement for cheap. He had some fun times with us but showing up out of shape is a big no no in Heat culture.

So basically this means we're insisting on keeping a..bench player?

I'm not sure Justise can be maximized in that role, he's not a 3 and D type player.

Looks to me OKC should be much more desperate to make this deal, I'm honestly not sold that in 2 years Westbrook is that much better (if at all) then Winslow at PG. Shooting and defense are already in Justise's pocket, and his offense keeps improving. Not to mention age and contract.

Did you just say Justise is not a 3 and D type player and then follow it up by saying "shooting and defense are already in Justise's pocket"?

I agree he's capable of growing into more than 3 and D. But he can absolutely thrive as a strong 3 and D player.

[batterybro42]

Guys I don't this trade is happening... Just heard Stan Van Gundy on 790.. Presti in not giving up RW for expiring contracts and Miami is not giving up any of the young players... OKC will hold to Westbrook until the trading deadline in see if someone else is interested at that point.

I think we gotten more than we expected by getting Butler and I am excited about our team as it is.. Maybe one of the young guys can make the leap to borderline star.. If we want a rebuilt that is sustainable we need to hold for a better opportunity to come along

I mean you look at the depth chart as is and with the young players we are adding like Nunn, Herro, and a 2nd year Robinson. I'm excited as is and by far we have exceeded expectations of this offseason. If Winslow explodes this year i'm going to be so glad we didn't waste our time and resources trading for that albatross contract.

Nunn and Robinson will be lucky to ever get more than 15 MPG in their careers, these are experienced players in summer league, they should be dominating

The idea of people counting on these guys to do much of anything in the regular season is a bit frustrating

We are a mediocre team in the East, in a year where the conference is up for grabs

Kinda sucks because with Russ I felt like we could make a run at a title

[MettaWorldPanda]

I need to see a backcourt of Winslow and Herro together. That combination just seems too perfect. Add in Bam with KO with Butler in the middle of that and BANG!.

[Dadouv47]

Barry’s article suggests there’s a significant gap in negotiations. Props to Miami for digging in. [b]But that silence is the way OKC works. Melo, both PG trades, even the Harden trade came out of nowhere. This snag is definitely causing OKC to canvas the league again[/b]

Pretty much. Presti could be talking to Houston and considering a crazy deal involving Chris Paul and picks without anyone else knowing about this. It's a high risk/high reward behavior from the Heat in my opinion. If they really want Westbrook, Winslow must be enough to make it happen (even if OKC wanted more). If not, not sure.I don't believe many teams are willing to trade for Westbrook (and even less teams that Russ wants to play for, which is the most important and maybe why Miami is still gambling by not giving up any asset) but not sure Winslow is worth it.

I still like the odds for Miami to get Westbrook without giving up any significant asset though.

[MettaWorldPanda]

Guys I don't this trade is happening... Just heard Stan Van Gundy on 790.. Presti in not giving up RW for expiring contracts and Miami is not giving up any of the young players... OKC will hold to Westbrook until the trading deadline in see if someone else is interested at that point.

I think we gotten more than we expected by getting Butler and I am excited about our team as it is.. Maybe one of the young guys can make the leap to borderline star.. If we want a rebuilt that is sustainable we need to hold for a better opportunity to come along

I mean you look at the depth chart as is and with the young players we are adding like Nunn, Herro, and a 2nd year Robinson. I'm excited as is and by far we have exceeded expectations of this offseason. If Winslow explodes this year i'm going to be so glad we didn't waste our time and resources trading for that albatross contract.

Nunn and Robinson will be lucky to ever get more than 15 MPG in their careers, these are experienced players in summer league, they should be dominating

The idea of people counting on these guys to do much of anything in the regular season is a bit frustrating

We are a mediocre team in the East, in a year where the conference is up for grabs

Kinda sucks because with Russ I felt like we could make a run at a title

Who said anything about counting on them? I noted them as solid organizational depth. Right now here goes our depth chart

C Kelly Olynyk C Leonard Meyers
PF/C Bam Adebayo PF James Johnson PF Duncan Robinson
SF Jimmy Butler SF/PF Derrick Jones Jr. SF/PF KZ Okpala
SG Dion Waiters SG/PG Tyler Herro
PG Goran Dragic PG/SF Justise Winslow PG Kendrick Nunn

Most likely to be cut PF Yante Maten

Most likley to be resigned PF/C Udonis Haslem

Roster at 14.

[Lilseb93]

The biggest factor in this trade discussion is who else is involved and how serious are they. If we're bidding against ourselves, we have a lot more leverage. We're not going to trade young assets for neutral or negative value. Russ is still a MVP type of player, but you don't take on an expensive contract (which does OKC a favor) AND blow up the roster and trade all your young assets.

[Rafly]

Walk away

[Enso]

Tbh no Westbrook isn’t that big of a deal we can see what butler can give us as the main guy/leader. Just let him go ham.

[greg4012]

Barry’s article suggests there’s a significant gap in negotiations. Props to Miami for digging in. [b]But that silence is the way OKC works. Melo, both PG trades, even the Harden trade came out of nowhere. This snag is definitely causing OKC to canvas the league again[/b]

Pretty much. Presti could be talking to Houston and considering a crazy deal involving Chris Paul and picks without anyone else knowing about this. It's a high risk/high reward behavior from the Heat in my opinion. If they really want Westbrook, Winslow must be enough to make it happen (even if OKC wanted more). If not, not sure.I don't believe many teams are willing to trade for Westbrook (and even less teams that Russ wants to play for, which is the most important and maybe why Miami is still gambling by not giving up any asset) but not sure Winslow is worth it.

I still like the odds for Miami to get Westbrook without giving up any significant asset though.

Miami's posture is not high risk if Miami is OK with it not happening.