Miami Heat Regular Season Thread 21-22 Vol. 3

[MiamiSun]

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Looks at the GRAVITY Robinson gets. Rather you appreciate his game or not, opponents do.

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It's an inbound play on the side of the basket, everyone gets covered like that.

What's not talked about his "gravity" is that when he has the ball a defender can play as tight as they want on him because they don't fear him getting past him and attacking the basket.

Duncan does have "gravity" in the offense, but so does really any 3pt shooter and if a 3pt shooter doesn't have much gravity that should help the offense by giving that 3pt shooter more open looks.

The thing Duncan has over the other 3pt shooters on the team is that he's good at working with screens to help tire defenders later in the game while a guy like Strus is able to find seams open spots vs working screens as much to be available for passes and shots. I personally would go with Strus but understand the thought of going with Duncan, especially with Spoelstra having such a strong voice in his development to get him into the starting lineup 3 seasons ago.

Another thing that is not talked about in regards to Duncan is his height. He is much taller than other 3 point specialist that run around the court. Most his size are stretch 4's that just kind of hang out at the 3 point line and wait for the ball. Duncan zips around screens and can raise up over most other guards to get his shot. When Duncan is on, it is lethal.

[SoFlaKingReal]

These are shots in the clutch, last 5 minutes of the game with the game within 5. Not chucking up shots at the end of the quarter.

Lowrys scoring I’ve seen in the clutch has almost specifically been him creating for himself.

You're right about how it's defined, I had forgotten NBA.com had that so I went and looked at a different stat, clutch +/- which is both sides of the court which basically told me what I thought about most Miami players in the clutch.

Context matters as well. It seems a lot of the Heat's "clutch" time has been when they were up big and the other team was clawing back. Look at the Nets game the other day. We go into this weird mode where we just try to run out the clock basically.

[MiamiSun]

These are shots in the clutch, last 5 minutes of the game with the game within 5. Not chucking up shots at the end of the quarter.

Lowrys scoring I’ve seen in the clutch has almost specifically been him creating for himself.

You're right about how it's defined, I had forgotten NBA.com had that so I went and looked at a different stat, clutch +/- which is both sides of the court which basically told me what I thought about most Miami players in the clutch.

Context matters as well. It seems a lot of the Heat's "clutch" time has been when they were up big and the other team was clawing back. Look at the Nets game the other day. We go into this weird mode where we just try to run out the clock basically.

This is so on point. Look at the energy difference last night when they were clawing back into the game and when they are just trying to hold teams off and run out the clock. HUGE difference.

[AirP.]

These are shots in the clutch, last 5 minutes of the game with the game within 5. Not chucking up shots at the end of the quarter.

Lowrys scoring I’ve seen in the clutch has almost specifically been him creating for himself.

You're right about how it's defined, I had forgotten NBA.com had that so I went and looked at a different stat, clutch +/- which is both sides of the court which basically told me what I thought about most Miami players in the clutch.

Context matters as well. It seems a lot of the Heat's "clutch" time has been when they were up big and the other team was clawing back. Look at the Nets game the other day. We go into this weird mode where we just try to run out the clock basically.

It's interesting with no pushback on the clutch FG% but net +/- there is, it's the +/- vs the other team in the clutch times, not what the score was or ended up being, purely the points given up or made in clutch time.

I'm not really all that surprised with the numbers other then Bam(lower then expected and also, Martin and Strus who I thought were positives but not at the rate they currently are.

But sure, that's why I go looking at ORTG-DRTG for full games. Too many people on here forget defense is half the game.

Code: Select all

Player                      ORtg DRtg ORtg-DRtg
------                      ---- ---- ---------
Jimmy Butler\butleji01      125  106         19
Dewayne Dedmon\dedmode01    120  104         16
P.J. Tucker\tuckepj01       122  109         13
Nik Stauskas\stausni01      128  115         13
Caleb Martin\martica02      119  107         12
Omer Yurtseven\yurtsom01    114  103         11
Chris Silva\silvach01       118  108         10
Bam Adebayo\adebaba01       112  104          8
Kyle Lowry\lowryky01        114  109          5
Max Strus\strusma01         116  111          5
KZ Okpala\okpalkz01         113  109          4
Udonis Haslem\hasleud01     110  106          4
Duncan Robinson\robindu01   111  111          0
Gabe Vincent\vincega01      109  110         -1
Kyle Guy\guyky01            104  110         -6
Tyler Herro\herroty01       103  111         -8
Markieff Morris\morrima02   104  112         -8
Haywood Highsmith\highsha01 102  113        -11
Marcus Garrett\garrema01    89   108        -19

[al bondiga]

Happy to see the Heat finally got 3 playoff intensity games and came out 2-1. They needs these battles for growth. Hopefully you see Bam, Butler and Lowry go into the film room and come up with ways to counter how they been defended.

I would like to see more plays by Spo for Butler that will get him a variety of different midrange looks like the one Butler hit in OT. Versatility in the schemes will help this team reach its potential.

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Really feel like we're starting to get an increased look at the Lowry play we'll see in the playoffs. Of course, he won't lead the charge scoring every game. But, it seems he's getting into his rhythm shooting and we're seeing an uptick in strategic advantage hunting by him lately.

like I just stated...also wish your premonitions about loud me are correct... he has a great history... I don't think this team has enough Firepower do get in a regular conversation with the stop five teams in this league, maybe a top 10
We have to realize we barely have an All-Star and bam should be an all star by now... just keep playing him at Center and one day he will will his way into growing 4 inches

[AirP.]

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[twix2500]

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Looks at the GRAVITY Robinson gets. Rather you appreciate his game or not, opponents do.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

It's an inbound play on the side of the basket, everyone gets covered like that.

What's not talked about his "gravity" is that when he has the ball a defender can play as tight as they want on him because they don't fear him getting past him and attacking the basket.

Duncan does have "gravity" in the offense, but so does really any 3pt shooter and if a 3pt shooter doesn't have much gravity that should help the offense by giving that 3pt shooter more open looks.

The thing Duncan has over the other 3pt shooters on the team is that he's good at working with screens to help tire defenders later in the game while a guy like Strus is able to find seams open spots vs working screens as much to be available for passes and shots. I personally would go with Strus but understand the thought of going with Duncan, especially with Spoelstra having such a strong voice in his development to get him into the starting lineup 3 seasons ago.

Oh boy you do not understand the importance of his gravity in this team's concept. And Any shooter doesn't have gravity. The point of his gravity is to allow the scorers who thrive at scoring in the paint by having SPACE in the paint, those scorers are Bam and Bulter. Which is half the strategy of Spo "Space and Pace" philosophy (originally designed for James and Wade). The WHOLE point is to allow Butler and Bam to carry the offensive load efficiently. The team and system is built around Bulter and Bam. The Heat want Duncan to pull defenders out from the paint, that is his PRIMARY responsibility

Let me back up and explain the theory of "Space" in Hoops. In basketball the more players on the court the harder it is to score. The less players on the court the easier it is to score. Because there is SPACE to operate. 4 on 4 is easier to score than 5 on 5. Because of Duncan's defender follows him beyond the 3 pt line it allows the Heat to play 4 on 4. And at times 3 on 4 Because Duncan at times draws 2 defenders out beyond the 3 pt line. The system is not meant for him to be the leading scorer, its to manipulate the defense that will allow the offense to score more efficiently with Bam and Butler. Also cutters now have room to operate. That is Duncans primary responsibility.

It makes a difference in this offense as a whole at being effective. Last year playoffs when the Heat played Bucks. Was an example of lack of gravity. Bam could not draw his defender to him, his defender would back off of him and decided to take space away from Bam's teammates to score around the rim, specifically Butler. Basically change the game to 4 on 5. Bucks were able to successfully do so, because Bam lacked the willingness to score. He took himself out of being a threat thus his defender didnt have to count for him. That is why I harped on Bam aggressiveness, because the system is built for him to take shots and carry the scoring load.

You and others are evaluating Duncan as an individual scorer. That is not the main objective in the role that Duncan has in this system. This is not the Princeton offense where everyone has equal opportunity to take the same amount of shots. Duncan only has about 10 available shots a game designated to him. Ideally you like for him to be getting 14-15 pts a game on those available shots. Since he got out of that bad funk in November, Robinson is averaging 12.3 on 9.7 shots. IMO that is below where I think the team needs him to be (14 pts preferably on those number of fga's).

Let's compare him to Herro, which the scheme is to get Herro a high number of shots with complementary players with the second unit. Herro is only scoring 20.0 pts on 17.6 shots. 2.4 points more than his attempts (ORTG 103). Duncan is scoring 2.6 points more than his attempts (ORTG 111). Duncan is doing better than Herro with his attempts. This is why 3ammy is complaining about Herro. His rate of scoring for number of shots he takes is not good.

However I know I am not gonna change AirP mind, because fundamentally he has an extremely high expectation for someone making 15 million a year than what I expect.




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[heater4life]

[Dmcdani6]

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Looks at the GRAVITY Robinson gets. Rather you appreciate his game or not, opponents do.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

It's an inbound play on the side of the basket, everyone gets covered like that.

What's not talked about his "gravity" is that when he has the ball a defender can play as tight as they want on him because they don't fear him getting past him and attacking the basket.

Duncan does have "gravity" in the offense, but so does really any 3pt shooter and if a 3pt shooter doesn't have much gravity that should help the offense by giving that 3pt shooter more open looks.

The thing Duncan has over the other 3pt shooters on the team is that he's good at working with screens to help tire defenders later in the game while a guy like Strus is able to find seams open spots vs working screens as much to be available for passes and shots. I personally would go with Strus but understand the thought of going with Duncan, especially with Spoelstra having such a strong voice in his development to get him into the starting lineup 3 seasons ago.

Oh boy you do not understand the importance of his gravity in this team's concept. And Any shooter doesn't have gravity. The point of his gravity is to allow the scorers who thrive at scoring in the paint by having SPACE in the paint, those scorers are Bam and Bulter. Which is half the strategy of Spo "Space and Pace" philosophy (originally designed for James and Wade). The WHOLE point is to allow Butler and Bam to carry the offensive load efficiently. The team and system is built around Bulter and Bam. The Heat want Duncan to pull defenders out from the paint, that is his PRIMARY responsibility

Let me back up and explain the theory of "Space" in Hoops. In basketball the more players on the court the harder it is to score. The less players on the court the easier it is to score. Because there is SPACE to operate. 4 on 4 is easier to score than 5 on 5. Because of Duncan's defender follows him beyond the 3 pt line it allows the Heat to play 4 on 4. And at times 3 on 4 Because Duncan at times draws 2 defenders out beyond the 3 pt line. The system is not meant for him to be the leading scorer, its to manipulate the defense that will allow the offense to score more efficiently with Bam and Butler. Also cutters now have room to operate. That is Duncans primary responsibility.

It makes a difference in this offense as a whole at being effective. Last year playoffs when the Heat played Bucks. Was an example of lack of gravity. Bam could not draw his defender to him, his defender would back off of him and decided to take space away from Bam's teammates to score around the rim, specifically Butler. Basically change the game to 4 on 5. Bucks were able to successfully do so, because Bam lacked the willingness to score. He took himself out of being a threat thus his defender didnt have to count for him. That is why I harped on Bam aggressiveness, because the system is built for him to take shots and carry the scoring load.

You and others are evaluating Duncan as an individual scorer. That is not the main objective in the role that Duncan has in this system. This is not the Princeton offense where everyone has equal opportunity to take the same amount of shots. Duncan only has about 10 available shots a game designated to him. Ideally you like for him to be getting 14-15 pts a game on those available shots. Since he got out of that bad funk in November, Robinson is averaging 12.3 on 9.7 shots. IMO that is below where I think the team needs him to be (14 pts preferably on those number of fga's).

Let's compare him to Herro, which the scheme is to get Herro a high number of shots with complementary players with the second unit. Herro is only scoring 20.0 pts on 17.6 shots. 2.4 points more than his attempts (ORTG 103). Duncan is scoring 2.6 points more than his attempts (ORTG 111). Duncan is doing better than Herro with his attempts. This is why 3ammy is complaining about Herro. His rate of scoring for number of shots he takes is not good.

However I know I am not gonna change AirP mind, because fundamentally he has an extremely high expectation for someone making 15 million a year than what I expect.


I like your points here. Whats a good points per attempt number? Curious

[AirP.]

Spoiler:

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Looks at the GRAVITY Robinson gets. Rather you appreciate his game or not, opponents do.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

It's an inbound play on the side of the basket, everyone gets covered like that.

What's not talked about his "gravity" is that when he has the ball a defender can play as tight as they want on him because they don't fear him getting past him and attacking the basket.

Duncan does have "gravity" in the offense, but so does really any 3pt shooter and if a 3pt shooter doesn't have much gravity that should help the offense by giving that 3pt shooter more open looks.

The thing Duncan has over the other 3pt shooters on the team is that he's good at working with screens to help tire defenders later in the game while a guy like Strus is able to find seams open spots vs working screens as much to be available for passes and shots. I personally would go with Strus but understand the thought of going with Duncan, especially with Spoelstra having such a strong voice in his development to get him into the starting lineup 3 seasons ago.

Oh boy you do not understand the importance of his gravity in this team's concept. And Any shooter doesn't have gravity. The point of his gravity is to allow the scorers who thrive at scoring in the paint by having SPACE in the paint, those scorers are Bam and Bulter. Which is half the strategy of Spo "Space and Pace" philosophy (originally designed for James and Wade). The WHOLE point is to allow Butler and Bam to carry the offensive load efficiently. The team and system is built around Bulter and Bam.

Let me back up and explain the theory of "Space" in Hoops. In basketball the more players on the court the harder it is to score. The less players on the court the easier it is to score. Because there is SPACE to operate. 4 on 4 is easier to score than 5 on 5. Because of Duncan's defender follows him beyond the 3 pt line it allows the Heat to play 4 on 4. And at times 3 on 4 Because Duncan at times draws 2 defenders out beyond the 3 pt line. The system is not meant for him to be the leading scorer, its to manipulate the defense that will allow the offense to score more efficiently with Bam and Butler. Also cutters now have room to operate. That is his PRIMARY responsibility.

It makes a difference in this offense as a whole at being effective. Last year playoffs when the Heat played Bucks. Was an example of lack of gravity. Bam could not draw his defender to him, his defender would back off of him and decided to take space away from Bam's teammates to score around the rim, specifically Butler. Basically change the game to 4 on 5. Bucks were able to successfully do so, because Bam lacked the willingness to score. He took himself out of being a threat thus his defender didnt have to count for him. That is why I harped on Bam aggressiveness, because the system is built for him to take shots and carry the scoring load.

You and others are evaluating Duncan as an individual scorer. That is not the main objective in the role that Duncan has in this system. This is not the Princeton offense where everyone has equal opportunity to take the same amount of shots. Duncan only has about 10 available shots a game designated to him. Ideally you like for him to be getting 14-15 pts a game on those available shots. Since he got out of that bad funk in November, Robinson is averaging 12.3 on 9.7 shots. IMO that is below where I think the team needs him to be (14 pts preferably on those number of fga's).

Let's compare him to Herro, which the scheme is to get Herro a high number of shots with complementary players with the second unit. Herro is only scoring 20.0 pts on 17.6 shots. 2.4 points more than his attempts (ORTG 103). Duncan is scoring 2.6 points more than his attempts (ORTG 111). Duncan is doing better than Herro with his attempts. This is why 3ammy is complaining about Herro. His rate of scoring for number of shots he takes is not good.

However I know I am not gonna change AirP mind, because fundamentally he has an extremely high expectation for someone making 15 million a year than what I expect.

I get the gravity of a great shooter, everyone has gravity just different amounts of it, I just don't see it much unless Miami is trying to do a DHO and with that, nobody else is really getting looked at but thanks for all the info on Gravity, I'll go with what I see over and over and over and over.

It was tough, I had to look at a 8-10 plays last night to find these examples of Robinson's gravity outside of DHOs.

Ok, here Robinson's gravity isn't working to well, I guess the defender isn't close enough for his gravitational pull.


This play his gravity wasn't enough to make Tucker's man try the passing lane for Tucker and Robinson nor was his gravity great enough to pull one of the 2 defenders in the lane guarding Butler.


This play I get leaving Butler wide open in the corner, but shouldn't Robinson's gravity keep one player defending the weak side?

A 35 year old point guard averaging 8 assists a game is going down the lane yet Robinson's gravity isn't helping him with an open lane? Weird!

Nobody's even guarding Robinson even with his incredible gravity. Boy that gravity sure is allowing his teammate's to play... 4 on 5 defense.


Give me a stretch of games with a 2 way player who has an average NBA 3pt shot in Robinson's spot with the starters and lets see how much that helps Miami out.

[insfo]

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Looks at the GRAVITY Robinson gets. Rather you appreciate his game or not, opponents do.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

It's an inbound play on the side of the basket, everyone gets covered like that.

What's not talked about his "gravity" is that when he has the ball a defender can play as tight as they want on him because they don't fear him getting past him and attacking the basket.

Duncan does have "gravity" in the offense, but so does really any 3pt shooter and if a 3pt shooter doesn't have much gravity that should help the offense by giving that 3pt shooter more open looks.

The thing Duncan has over the other 3pt shooters on the team is that he's good at working with screens to help tire defenders later in the game while a guy like Strus is able to find seams open spots vs working screens as much to be available for passes and shots. I personally would go with Strus but understand the thought of going with Duncan, especially with Spoelstra having such a strong voice in his development to get him into the starting lineup 3 seasons ago.

Oh boy you do not understand the importance of his gravity in this team's concept. And Any shooter doesn't have gravity. The point of his gravity is to allow the scorers who thrive at scoring in the paint by having SPACE in the paint, those scorers are Bam and Bulter. Which is half the strategy of Spo "Space and Pace" philosophy (originally designed for James and Wade). The WHOLE point is to allow Butler and Bam to carry the offensive load efficiently. The team and system is built around Bulter and Bam. The Heat want Duncan to pull defenders out from the paint, that is his PRIMARY responsibility

Let me back up and explain the theory of "Space" in Hoops. In basketball the more players on the court the harder it is to score. The less players on the court the easier it is to score. Because there is SPACE to operate. 4 on 4 is easier to score than 5 on 5. Because of Duncan's defender follows him beyond the 3 pt line it allows the Heat to play 4 on 4. And at times 3 on 4 Because Duncan at times draws 2 defenders out beyond the 3 pt line. The system is not meant for him to be the leading scorer, its to manipulate the defense that will allow the offense to score more efficiently with Bam and Butler. Also cutters now have room to operate. That is Duncans primary responsibility.

It makes a difference in this offense as a whole at being effective. Last year playoffs when the Heat played Bucks. Was an example of lack of gravity. Bam could not draw his defender to him, his defender would back off of him and decided to take space away from Bam's teammates to score around the rim, specifically Butler. Basically change the game to 4 on 5. Bucks were able to successfully do so, because Bam lacked the willingness to score. He took himself out of being a threat thus his defender didnt have to count for him. That is why I harped on Bam aggressiveness, because the system is built for him to take shots and carry the scoring load.

You and others are evaluating Duncan as an individual scorer. That is not the main objective in the role that Duncan has in this system. This is not the Princeton offense where everyone has equal opportunity to take the same amount of shots. Duncan only has about 10 available shots a game designated to him. Ideally you like for him to be getting 14-15 pts a game on those available shots. Since he got out of that bad funk in November, Robinson is averaging 12.3 on 9.7 shots. IMO that is below where I think the team needs him to be (14 pts preferably on those number of fga's).

Let's compare him to Herro, which the scheme is to get Herro a high number of shots with complementary players with the second unit. Herro is only scoring 20.0 pts on 17.6 shots. 2.4 points more than his attempts (ORTG 103). Duncan is scoring 2.6 points more than his attempts (ORTG 111). Duncan is doing better than Herro with his attempts. This is why 3ammy is complaining about Herro. His rate of scoring for number of shots he takes is not good.

However I know I am not gonna change AirP mind, because fundamentally he has an extremely high expectation for someone making 15 million a year than what I expect.




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Agree with a lot of this, other than the parts of the Herro comments. Herro's role might be different in some portions of the game like you said, where his primary role is to score with the second unit, but he is also frequently put into the same position as Duncan in trying to clear the paint out for Bam & Butler. So I don't think we can evaluate Herro's numbers differently (or atleast a great deal differently) than you would Duncan's because in the overall scheme of things atleast part of their responsibility is to draw defenders out of the paint.

[twix2500]

It's an inbound play on the side of the basket, everyone gets covered like that.

What's not talked about his "gravity" is that when he has the ball a defender can play as tight as they want on him because they don't fear him getting past him and attacking the basket.

Duncan does have "gravity" in the offense, but so does really any 3pt shooter and if a 3pt shooter doesn't have much gravity that should help the offense by giving that 3pt shooter more open looks.

The thing Duncan has over the other 3pt shooters on the team is that he's good at working with screens to help tire defenders later in the game while a guy like Strus is able to find seams open spots vs working screens as much to be available for passes and shots. I personally would go with Strus but understand the thought of going with Duncan, especially with Spoelstra having such a strong voice in his development to get him into the starting lineup 3 seasons ago.

Oh boy you do not understand the importance of his gravity in this team's concept. And Any shooter doesn't have gravity. The point of his gravity is to allow the scorers who thrive at scoring in the paint by having SPACE in the paint, those scorers are Bam and Bulter. Which is half the strategy of Spo "Space and Pace" philosophy (originally designed for James and Wade). The WHOLE point is to allow Butler and Bam to carry the offensive load efficiently. The team and system is built around Bulter and Bam. The Heat want Duncan to pull defenders out from the paint, that is his PRIMARY responsibility

Let me back up and explain the theory of "Space" in Hoops. In basketball the more players on the court the harder it is to score. The less players on the court the easier it is to score. Because there is SPACE to operate. 4 on 4 is easier to score than 5 on 5. Because of Duncan's defender follows him beyond the 3 pt line it allows the Heat to play 4 on 4. And at times 3 on 4 Because Duncan at times draws 2 defenders out beyond the 3 pt line. The system is not meant for him to be the leading scorer, its to manipulate the defense that will allow the offense to score more efficiently with Bam and Butler. Also cutters now have room to operate. That is Duncans primary responsibility.

It makes a difference in this offense as a whole at being effective. Last year playoffs when the Heat played Bucks. Was an example of lack of gravity. Bam could not draw his defender to him, his defender would back off of him and decided to take space away from Bam's teammates to score around the rim, specifically Butler. Basically change the game to 4 on 5. Bucks were able to successfully do so, because Bam lacked the willingness to score. He took himself out of being a threat thus his defender didnt have to count for him. That is why I harped on Bam aggressiveness, because the system is built for him to take shots and carry the scoring load.

You and others are evaluating Duncan as an individual scorer. That is not the main objective in the role that Duncan has in this system. This is not the Princeton offense where everyone has equal opportunity to take the same amount of shots. Duncan only has about 10 available shots a game designated to him. Ideally you like for him to be getting 14-15 pts a game on those available shots. Since he got out of that bad funk in November, Robinson is averaging 12.3 on 9.7 shots. IMO that is below where I think the team needs him to be (14 pts preferably on those number of fga's).

Let's compare him to Herro, which the scheme is to get Herro a high number of shots with complementary players with the second unit. Herro is only scoring 20.0 pts on 17.6 shots. 2.4 points more than his attempts (ORTG 103). Duncan is scoring 2.6 points more than his attempts (ORTG 111). Duncan is doing better than Herro with his attempts. This is why 3ammy is complaining about Herro. His rate of scoring for number of shots he takes is not good.

However I know I am not gonna change AirP mind, because fundamentally he has an extremely high expectation for someone making 15 million a year than what I expect.




Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Agree with a lot of this, other than the parts of the Herro comments. Herro's role might be different in some portions of the game like you said, where his primary role is to score with the second unit, but he is also frequently put into the same position as Duncan in trying to clear the paint out for Bam & Butler. So I don't think we can evaluate Herro's numbers differently (or atleast a great deal differently) than you would Duncan's because in the overall scheme of things atleast part of their responsibility is to draw defenders out of the paint.

I understand Herro has a different role than Duncan. Duncan role is smaller because that is what is needed for Bam and Butler. But the complaint has been Duncan as a scorer. Thus I am putting in comparison who everyone here keep saying Herro is the best scorer on the team. Duncan is doing better at his attempts than Herro.

[AirP.]

I understand Herro has a different role than Duncan. Duncan role is smaller because that is what is needed for Bam and Butler. But the complaint has been Duncan as a scorer. Thus I am putting in comparison who everyone here keep saying Herro is the best scorer on the team. Duncan is doing better at his attempts than Herro.

No, the complaint is heavy on the 3pt shooting because that's his only average or better NBA skill. He's a bad defender, doesn't cut well and doesn't create for himself or teammates other then his gravity which everyone has different levels of.

[twix2500]

Spoiler:

It's an inbound play on the side of the basket, everyone gets covered like that.

What's not talked about his "gravity" is that when he has the ball a defender can play as tight as they want on him because they don't fear him getting past him and attacking the basket.

Duncan does have "gravity" in the offense, but so does really any 3pt shooter and if a 3pt shooter doesn't have much gravity that should help the offense by giving that 3pt shooter more open looks.

The thing Duncan has over the other 3pt shooters on the team is that he's good at working with screens to help tire defenders later in the game while a guy like Strus is able to find seams open spots vs working screens as much to be available for passes and shots. I personally would go with Strus but understand the thought of going with Duncan, especially with Spoelstra having such a strong voice in his development to get him into the starting lineup 3 seasons ago.

Spoiler:

Oh boy you do not understand the importance of his gravity in this team's concept. And Any shooter doesn't have gravity. The point of his gravity is to allow the scorers who thrive at scoring in the paint by having SPACE in the paint, those scorers are Bam and Bulter. Which is half the strategy of Spo "Space and Pace" philosophy (originally designed for James and Wade). The WHOLE point is to allow Butler and Bam to carry the offensive load efficiently. The team and system is built around Bulter and Bam.

Let me back up and explain the theory of "Space" in Hoops. In basketball the more players on the court the harder it is to score. The less players on the court the easier it is to score. Because there is SPACE to operate. 4 on 4 is easier to score than 5 on 5. Because of Duncan's defender follows him beyond the 3 pt line it allows the Heat to play 4 on 4. And at times 3 on 4 Because Duncan at times draws 2 defenders out beyond the 3 pt line. The system is not meant for him to be the leading scorer, its to manipulate the defense that will allow the offense to score more efficiently with Bam and Butler. Also cutters now have room to operate. That is his PRIMARY responsibility.

It makes a difference in this offense as a whole at being effective. Last year playoffs when the Heat played Bucks. Was an example of lack of gravity. Bam could not draw his defender to him, his defender would back off of him and decided to take space away from Bam's teammates to score around the rim, specifically Butler. Basically change the game to 4 on 5. Bucks were able to successfully do so, because Bam lacked the willingness to score. He took himself out of being a threat thus his defender didnt have to count for him. That is why I harped on Bam aggressiveness, because the system is built for him to take shots and carry the scoring load.

You and others are evaluating Duncan as an individual scorer. That is not the main objective in the role that Duncan has in this system. This is not the Princeton offense where everyone has equal opportunity to take the same amount of shots. Duncan only has about 10 available shots a game designated to him. Ideally you like for him to be getting 14-15 pts a game on those available shots. Since he got out of that bad funk in November, Robinson is averaging 12.3 on 9.7 shots. IMO that is below where I think the team needs him to be (14 pts preferably on those number of fga's).

Let's compare him to Herro, which the scheme is to get Herro a high number of shots with complementary players with the second unit. Herro is only scoring 20.0 pts on 17.6 shots. 2.4 points more than his attempts (ORTG 103). Duncan is scoring 2.6 points more than his attempts (ORTG 111). Duncan is doing better than Herro with his attempts. This is why 3ammy is complaining about Herro. His rate of scoring for number of shots he takes is not good.

However I know I am not gonna change AirP mind, because fundamentally he has an extremely high expectation for someone making 15 million a year than what I expect.

I get the gravity of a great shooter, everyone has gravity just different amounts of it, I just don't see it much unless Miami is trying to do a DHO and with that, nobody else is really getting looked at but thanks for all the info on Gravity, I'll go with what I see over and over and over and over.

It was tough, I had to look at a 8-10 plays last night to find these examples of Robinson's gravity outside of DHOs.

Ok, here Robinson's gravity isn't working to well, I guess the defender isn't close enough for his gravitational pull.

Spoiler:

This play his gravity wasn't enough to make Tucker's man try the passing lane for Tucker and Robinson nor was his gravity great enough to pull one of the 2 defenders in the lane guarding Butler.

Spoiler:

This play I get leaving Butler wide open in the corner, but shouldn't Robinson's gravity keep one player defending the weak side?

A 35 year old point guard averaging 8 assists a game is going down the lane yet Robinson's gravity isn't helping him with an open lane? Weird!

Nobody's even guarding Robinson even with his incredible gravity. Boy that gravity sure is allowing his teammate's to play... 4 on 5 defense.

Give me a stretch of games with a 2 way player who has an average NBA 3pt shot in Robinson's spot with the starters and lets see how much that helps Miami out.

AirP I do not know how to make you see it. All the commentators and basketball coaches and teams coaches are pointing out the attention Duncan gets is higher than normal.

[twix2500]

I understand Herro has a different role than Duncan. Duncan role is smaller because that is what is needed for Bam and Butler. But the complaint has been Duncan as a scorer. Thus I am putting in comparison who everyone here keep saying Herro is the best scorer on the team. Duncan is doing better at his attempts than Herro.

No, the complaint is heavy on the 3pt shooting because that's his only average or better NBA skill. He's a bad defender, doesn't cut well and doesn't create for himself or teammates other then his gravity which everyone has different levels of.

AirP if you do not understand that Butler and Bam needs high volume 3 point shooters next not people drive to the basket. They play in the paint they need their complementary players to draw defenders out of the paint. They do not need drivers. Drivers bring defenders into the paint. The shots that are need in this system around Butler and Bam are 3 point shots. Why are you worried about other type shots where they are not in position to take other type of shots.

That gravity is providing space. The less gravity you have the less SPACE the team has in whole to play. SPACE makes a difference. Now you see Duncan PASSING to open cutters. Cutters get are getting easy looks at the basket. It makes a HUGE difference.

[twix2500]

Duncan is role player. He has specific defined role. All good role players are specilist. They specialize. There specialty needs to complement the star. The role of Tucker and Robinson is only to shoot 3 pointers. Worried about a skill being average or less than average that will be rarely utilize is silly.

When Bam and Butler were not around then that is a point to be made. Because the player he suppose to complement is not there. That is why when Butler and Bam was out, I said Robinson needs to come off the bench now because the need is different. The job for ball handling was open.

A bad role player is average at everything. I see yall asking for versatile role player all the time on here. That is contridictory in name. ROLE PLAYER is names he has a limitied specific ROLE.

You put a player who is average at everthing around a star, you will have weak ass team. Because you not gonna win by average out puts. That is one thing I have point at the Celtics failures is the bad role players they have that are not great at anything.

[carnageta]

Gravity this. Gravity that. Any news on Dragic??

[twix2500]

Gravity this. Gravity that. Any news on Dragic??

I know man, I try to stay away from conversation. AirP is a smart dude, he said it a thousand times, the contract is what bothers him about Duncan. He never complained about Duncan this much until the contract. Since then he been on a mission to highlight Duncan weaknesses and downplay his strengths. I believe AirP is smart that is why I believe he is not being totally honest. There is no way he seen how Winslow's lack of spacing hurt the team but now cant see the spacing Duncan provides is a big impact to the team.

Some in here should honestly understand. The Heat had Ray Allen, Shane Battier and Mike Miller. No one was looking for Battier to drive to the basket. No one was looking for broken back Miller to drive to the basket. No one was looking for bad knees Allen to drive to the basket. Just provide spacing and let Wade and James do work in the paint. It is the same concept. But all of a sudden we want duncan to drive to the basket. C'Mon man.

I suspect Dragic got to Dallas or LA.

[MorbidHEAT]

Gravity this. Gravity that. Any news on Dragic??

I know man, I try to stay away from conversation. AirP is a smart dude, he said it a thousand times, the contract is what bothers him about Duncan. He never complained about Duncan this much until the contract. Since then he been on a mission to highlight Duncan weaknesses and downplay his strengths. I believe AirP is smart that is why I believe he is not being totally honest. There is no way he seen how Winslow's lack of spacing hurt the team but now cant see the spacing Duncan provides is a big impact to the team.

Some in here should honestly understand. The Heat had Ray Allen, Shane Battier and Mike Miller. No one was looking for Battier to drive to the basket. No one was looking for broken back Miller to drive to the basket. No one was looking for bad knees Allen to drive to the basket. Just provide spacing and let Wade and James do work in the paint. It is the same concept. But all of a sudden we want duncan to drive to the basket. C'Mon man.

I suspect Dragic got to Dallas or LA.

I agree. I think the problem with Duncan is the lack of consistency. I am still team Duncan. I don't care that he doesn't drive. I want him to attract defenders. In order to do that, he must shoot at a decent rate consistently, which has been part of the problem this year. I trust him more than any other shooter on the team. When he gets going, we are pretty unbeatable. Consistency is the problem at this point. Let's hope he can string some games together after the all star break.

[AirP.]

AirP I do not know how to make you see it. All the commentators and basketball coaches and teams coaches are pointing out the attention Duncan gets is higher than normal.

Did I say he doesn't get more attention at the 3pt line for being a 3pt shooter, I have not disputed this. What I dispute is the amount of space it creates for the team since I watch the games and sometimes rewatch plays from nba.com. Everyone has gravity, just different levels of it and it's not just based off the player but also by where and what they're doing on the court.

AirP if you do not understand that Butler and Bam needs high volume 3 point shooters next not people drive to the basket. They play in the paint they need their complementary players to draw defenders out of the paint. They do not need drivers. Drivers bring defenders into the paint. The shots that are need in this system around Butler and Bam are 3 point shots. Why are you worried about other type shots where they are not in position to take other type of shots.

That gravity is providing space. The less gravity you have the less SPACE the team has in whole to play. SPACE makes a difference. Now you see Duncan PASSING to open cutters. Cutters get are getting easy looks at the basket. It makes a HUGE difference.

Thank goodness someone named guard a player closely or double teaming to something simple like gravity to make everyone an expert because they say gravity or spacing.

In theory, if Robinson is out at the 3 point like and he pulls his man close enough to guard him, yes, it's 4 on 4 in the same amount of space 10 people once were so there is more space for each of the 4 offensive players to work in. Just because I don't think Robinson creates space nearly enough for the team to compensate for every other aspect of basketball he's below average at doesn't mean I don't get gravity of a player.

Please don't forget.
Thinking there are better options to replace Robinson does not mean that person doesn't believe in basketball gravity, in fact they may have a very good understanding of it and that's why they argue against him. If Robinson was hitting shots like he did his first full season of starting this wouldn't be a discussion, but he's not so it is.