RealGM

I'm sure that you've missed my championing of Spo - but since it hasn't been needed this season I've managed to selectively read the board and just ignore all the fools.

But now it's time to praise the guy.

Who else could have created such a potent new form of defense for today's new form of basketball? Who else could make a dominant defense when your center is Joel Anthony? Spo has looked at what he has and then created the ultimate in fast and fluid defenses. How can a team without a dominant bigman stop great offenses so well? By not letting go of the rope - of course. Speed, trust and teamwork. those things he was banging on about last season.

Well done Spo. The first new defense of the era.

HIF wrote:I'm sure that you've missed my championing of Spo - but since it hasn't been needed this season I've managed to selectively read the board and just ignore all the fools.

But now it's time to praise the guy.

Who else could have created such a potent new form of defense for today's new form of basketball? Who else could make a dominant defense when your center is Joel Anthony? Spo has looked at what he has and then created the ultimate in fast and fluid defenses. How can a team without a dominant bigman stop great offenses so well? By not letting go of the rope - of course. Speed, trust and teamwork. those things he was banging on about last season.

Well done Spo. The first new defense of the era.

ooooo somee fresh air! Welcome back ya french **** disturber (all meant in the nicest way )

I have to say I agree. Everything you said is the truth, but not the whole truth...

An NBA coach needs to be smart AND a great motivator. His system is awesome, and produces results. The results produced have been the main motivator in getting these guys to buy into the system. Spo will never have "1 suit, 1 tie" moments because he just lacks the charisma and leadership. Most times, you want a guy who can draw up the x and o's perfectly (Spo) but sometimes, you need someone to break the clipboard and inspire.

I think this team will go far, but that x-factor leadership trait will need to come from one of Wade or LeBron, because it probably won't be coming from Spo.

Who else could have created a top 7 defense with Joel Anthony (an all time elite defensive center) as your center?

When you also have another all time elite defender and three other good defenders in your starting lineup, with two other good defenders coming off the bench?

I know facts don't really matter to you but our defense has underachieved (100 drtg, 7th in the league), we should be better with Joel, Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Chalmers, Battier and Haslem in the rotation.

There are 6 teams ahead of us in Drtg and we have just as much if not more defensive talent than all of them.

So to answer your question, quite a few coaches could have the 7th best defense in the league with our players. Its not a huge accomplishment.

You try to denigrate Joel to make Spo look better but you chose the wrong side of the ball to make that argument. Joel is an elite defensive center.

GreenHat wrote:Who else could have created a top 7 defense with Joel Anthony (an all time elite defensive center) as your center?

Joel is an elite defensive center.

Oh my!!!

I also championed Joel over the last few years but ELITE defensive center - you're the first person I've ever heard describe Joel as that.

He's too short and small to defend the good old Shaq- like centers, he is great in this system simply because of the system. the same for Mario who is abysmal against fast guards but that doesn't matter in this SPOstem.

Just out of interest how many players can be classed as "Elite" at any one time?

Surely the "Elite" defensive Centers start with Dwight Howard (you don't think the magic would trade us Him for Joel do you?), Marcus Camby after that you're pushing it but I know people have spoken about TC, Nene, Duncan, Perkins, Okafor and others but JOEL - he's no Hakeem or Bill Russell. I like your flame tinted glasses though.

Joel - elite

Yeah Joel is an elite defensive center. I don't see anything wrong with saying that. The guys you mentioned are mostly thought to be better than Joel for their offense and rebounding, not defense.

I am glad to see you are back to your usual strawman arguments (OF COURSE I THINK ORLANDO WILL TRADE US DWIGHT FOR JOEL! AND JOEL > RUSSELL + HAKEEM OBVIOUSLY)

You say he is too short and small to defend Shaq-like centers. There aren't any of them in the league today.

Joel would be great in Doug Collins', Thibs', Doc's, McMillan's or Carlisle's defensive systems as well. All of them have better defenses than Spo with lesser or (at worst) equal defensive talent.

Spo isn't the one making Joel a good defensive player.

If you haven't seen anyone else classify Joel as an elite defender than you must not read much. Or look at the numbers.

Chalmers has been known as a good defender since his early years at Kansas. I'm glad that Spo used his time machine to go back and make sure Chalmers learned how to be a good defender back then. We should probably also thank Spo for Chalmers having good lateral speed and quick hands. Somehow Spo must have pre-embryonically contributed to that as well.

Curious why you ignored the mentions of Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Battier and Haslem (which is more than enough to have a top 7 defense anyway)? Aren't they all nothing defensively without the SPostem too?

If anything I would say that most on this board would say that I am overly critical of the team so I don't understand why the tinted glasses line would be directed towards me.

Joel is in a higher percentile of defensive players than Spo is in for coaching. If you consider Spo an elite coach then Joel is an elite defensive player.

GreenHat wrote:Yeah Joel is an elite defensive center. I don't see anything wrong with saying that.

If you haven't seen anyone else classify Joel as an elite defender than you must not read much. Or look at the numbers.

Chalmers has been known as a good defender since his early years at Kansas. .

Thanks for the day's comedy input. Joel isn't elite. that's why he wasn't drafted. That's why no-one offers to trade for him. That's why even our players and coaches state how he WOULDN'T fit on most teams and that's why he only gets 20 mins playing time.

Stop going on before you embarrass yourself further.

As for Chalmers he has been "KNOWN" as a good defender by those who don't actually watch him play but see that he has made a lot of steals in the stats. Those of us that have watched his every game from day one KNOW that he is a gambler and that he is skinned continually by quick PGs. it has been that way every game and every season until recently.

It is down to the Spostem that he now has covered most times that he is skinned and therefore his defense is better for it.

And yes Wade and Bron are ELITE defenders. The system has been setup to benefit from that. But enough of the JOEL is an Elite defensive Center - he's not.

I wouldn't call Joel an all-time elite center, but I think HIF sells him a little short. He might not be the best defensive center in the league but he fits this defensive system perfectly. The guy hedges and moves his feet as good as any C in the league, plus he is a premier shot-blocker.

His ability to contain on the hedge (& switch if needed) adds ridiculous versatility to a team that already has the most versatile perimeter defenders in the league (Battier-Wade-LeBron). It's what makes the Heat's defense so good. Teams just can't run the PnR on Miami because LeBron, Battier, and JA have the ability to switch or hedge & recover.JA allows Miami to switch because of his foot speed and lateral quickness, with LeBron & Battier capable of defending the PF. And when JA hedges he's more then capable of containing the man until the defender comes back. Most of the time the PG is trending backwards and away from the basket, which is incredible for a C. The one thing I will say though, JA tends to stay on the hedge too long and pretty much starts a double team. This is all well and fine against bad PG's, but when you play a good-elite PG they're probably going to find the next open man which often leads to open 3pt shots. That's a small adjustment though.

And I'm not even going to talk about his ability to block and alter shots. A lot of these blocked shots lead to transition opportunities because of how well LeBron, Wade, and Cole can get the ball up the floor.

I know the guy is useless offensively and is more of a 15 MPG energy player off the bench than a starter playing 25 MPG, but he's invaluable to this team because of his contributions defensively (at least most nights when he isn't killing them offensively lol). The guy is a better player this year, not by much, but definitely better.

The one thing I will say though, Miami doesn't need stars at any positions because of the Big3. They need guys that can play solid defense and impact the game without having the ball in their hands. It's incredible how much the supporting cast has improved since last year. Battier, Chalmers, Miller, Haslem, Anthony don't need the ball at all to have an impact on the game. Battier, Chalmers, and Miller just need to camp out at the 3pt line and be ready to shoot, which they do very well. Haslem is averaging the 2nd most rebounds on the team with 10 less minutes than Bosh. JA showed last game why he's so good. He scored 0 points with only 6 rebounds, but he impacted the game more than anybody (outside the big 3).

Wade2k6 - that is what I'm saying.

He is perfect for this system. A system created especially for this team in the new era of fast, mobile teams with good PGs.

HIF wrote:Wade2k6 - that is what I'm saying.

He is perfect for this system. A system created especially for this team in the new era of fast, mobile teams with good PGs.

I wouldn't say the system was created for this team, they've been playing defense like this pre-2010. They were still making teams beat them from 3 and collapsing in the paint on penetration (thus why teams were still killing Miami from 3 in 2009 and 2010). They just never had the players to do it at a championship level before. Adding players like Bosh and LeBron makes everyone better, even defensively. It masks the deficiencies of JA (size, rebounding) and Haslem (size). Adding LeBron and Bosh allows Miami to defend the PnR better because of their lateral quickness, it allows them to get by with a smaller C (JA) because of their rebounding ability and length, and it allows them to close on shooters & rotate much quicker.

I'm not taking a jab at Spo at all. The system Spo had in place worked before LeBron and Bosh got here (6th and 11th defensively in '09 and '10), but LeBron and Bosh make it championship level.

HIF wrote:

GreenHat wrote:Yeah Joel is an elite defensive center. I don't see anything wrong with saying that.

If you haven't seen anyone else classify Joel as an elite defender than you must not read much. Or look at the numbers.

Chalmers has been known as a good defender since his early years at Kansas. .

Thanks for the day's comedy input. Joel isn't elite. that's why he wasn't drafted. That's why no-one offers to trade for him. That's why even our players and coaches state how he WOULDN'T fit on most teams and that's why he only gets 20 mins playing time.

Stop going on before you embarrass yourself further.

As for Chalmers he has been "KNOWN" as a good defender by those who don't actually watch him play but see that he has made a lot of steals in the stats. Those of us that have watched his every game from day one KNOW that he is a gambler and that he is skinned continually by quick PGs. it has been that way every game and every season until recently.

It is down to the Spostem that he now has covered most times that he is skinned and therefore his defense is better for it.

And yes Wade and Bron are ELITE defenders. The system has been setup to benefit from that. But enough of the JOEL is an Elite defensive Center - he's not.

Joel isn't an elite defender because he wasn't drafted? Good point I guess Ben Wallace and Bruce Bowen can't be elite defenders either. Truly your insight knows no bounds.

Joel wasn't drafted and plays less minutes because of offense and rebounding not because of defense. Is that really hard to understand?

If we were allowed unlimited substitutions then Joel would be subbed in on every defensive possession.

I can turn your criticism of Joel around on Spo. If he was a good coach why couldn't he originally get a job as a coach? He was a video coordinator because he couldn't get a coaching job. Then all those years why didn't another team try to hire him? Why were we able to keep him for so cheap on an extension when there is no cap on coaching salaries?

If anyone would find it embarrassing that someone would consider Joel an elite defender then they don't know much about basketball.

As for Chalmers he was a good defender, not even counting the steals. I actually watched all of those games at Kansas. Everyone gets skinned by fast pgs. Who are these pgs that can cover fast pgs one on one?

And even going by your own standards Spo has two elite defenders plus Bosh/Joel/Haslem/Battier. With all of that defensive talent he has the 7th best defense.

Surely that is an amazing accomplishment that no other coach could ever replicate.

Our defense give up 100 points/100 possessions. Philly gives up only 97. That's a huge difference. Its basically the difference between us and an average defense.

So Spo has a much worse defense than Doug Collins this season.

Collins has a top 7 (in terms of minutes played) of:

Igoudala
Holliday
Thaddeus Young
Lou Williams
Jodie Meeks
Elton Brand
Evan Turner

Spo has a top 7 (in terms of minutes played) of:

Lebron
Bosh
Chalmers
Haslem
Wade
Battier
Anthony

Are you really going to argue that first seven are better than our guys?

Spo has the better defensive players but Collins still has the much better defense. Where is that large chasm coming from if Spo has the better defensive players?

Seems like we would be even better defensively under the COstem than the SPostem.

Spo defensive system is easy as hell to beat. And he didn't even come up with it.

And you really just a need a center these days to rotate and block some shots and Joel is perfect for that when you have elite rebounders with DWade and LBJ.

GreenHat wrote:

HIF wrote:

GreenHat wrote:Yeah Joel is an elite defensive center. I don't see anything wrong with saying that.

If you haven't seen anyone else classify Joel as an elite defender than you must not read much. Or look at the numbers.

Chalmers has been known as a good defender since his early years at Kansas. .

Thanks for the day's comedy input. Joel isn't elite. that's why he wasn't drafted. That's why no-one offers to trade for him. That's why even our players and coaches state how he WOULDN'T fit on most teams and that's why he only gets 20 mins playing time.

Stop going on before you embarrass yourself further.

As for Chalmers he has been "KNOWN" as a good defender by those who don't actually watch him play but see that he has made a lot of steals in the stats. Those of us that have watched his every game from day one KNOW that he is a gambler and that he is skinned continually by quick PGs. it has been that way every game and every season until recently.

It is down to the Spostem that he now has covered most times that he is skinned and therefore his defense is better for it.

And yes Wade and Bron are ELITE defenders. The system has been setup to benefit from that. But enough of the JOEL is an Elite defensive Center - he's not.

Joel isn't an elite defender because he wasn't drafted? Good point I guess Ben Wallace and Bruce Bowen can't be elite defenders either. Truly your insight knows no bounds.

Joel wasn't drafted and plays less minutes because of offense and rebounding not because of defense. Is that really hard to understand?

If we were allowed unlimited substitutions then Joel would be subbed in on every defensive possession.

I can turn your criticism of Joel around on Spo. If he was a good coach why couldn't he originally get a job as a coach? He was a video coordinator because he couldn't get a coaching job. Then all those years why didn't another team try to hire him? Why were we able to keep him for so cheap on an extension when there is no cap on coaching salaries?

If anyone would find it embarrassing that someone would consider Joel an elite defender then they don't know much about basketball.

As for Chalmers he was a good defender, not even counting the steals. I actually watched all of those games at Kansas. Everyone gets skinned by fast pgs. Who are these pgs that can cover fast pgs one on one?

And even going by your own standards Spo has two elite defenders plus Bosh/Joel/Haslem/Battier. With all of that defensive talent he has the 7th best defense.

Surely that is an amazing accomplishment that no other coach could ever replicate.

Our defense give up 100 points/100 possessions. Philly gives up only 97. That's a huge difference. Its basically the difference between us and an average defense.

So Spo has a much worse defense than Doug Collins this season.

Collins has a top 7 (in terms of minutes played) of:

Igoudala
Holliday
Thaddeus Young
Lou Williams
Jodie Meeks
Elton Brand
Evan Turner

Spo has a top 7 (in terms of minutes played) of:

Lebron
Bosh
Chalmers
Haslem
Wade
Battier
Anthony

Are you really going to argue that first seven are better than our guys?

Spo has the better defensive players but Collins still has the much better defense. Where is that large chasm coming from if Spo has the better defensive players?

Seems like we would be even better defensively under the COstem than the SPostem.

Honestly has a defensive unit all around... I would take Philly's front 7.

Shane doesn't have the legs to rotate, he is a one on one defender.
Joel can't stay on the court long enough because he just becomes a liability. He can get pushed around by bigger bodies and he is a terrible rebounder .
Chalmers does get torched by elite athletic pgs.
Wade who is a prolific team defender
Lebron who is also a ridiculous defender team and one on one against some players
Bosh who is a great pick and roll defender and can play decent to above average post defense

Thaddeus Young can guard 3 and 4s
Jrue is a good one on one defender and a good team defender
Elton Brand is a great post defender
Lou Wililams is a good ball thief
Andre can guard 1 thru 3, even stretch fours probably
Evan Turner is a great rebounder and a decent team defender
Jodie Meeks another team defender


Defensively Philly is better.

Until our 3 point line defense stays the same (crappy and Miller making it worse), I don't know about giving props.

He has done a good job, he has improved. But so has his cast. He now has versatile defenders to work with.

lol Joel isn't elite. He can't do anything else but block or disrupt shots. He's fast as hell for a guy his size, which is why he's amazing. If he does not have that speed, he wouldn't even be in the NBA. The Heat love to give people chances, especially if they play defense (see UD).

Our 3 point line defense is pathetic. Giving up 16, 18 3's to two teams? NY had their best 3 point shooters get great looks. You can't have that happen, especially when you know they are a good shooter.

It has been better as of late because they are really trying out there to close out. But the defense is very energy oriented. Dallas kept saying how they would try to tire the Heat out, all they did was move the ball and we'd get beat.

Luckily it took Spo the whole off season and about a month to figure out the zone (lol), but I want to see how he does in the playoffs. He got out-coached against Dallas, we'll see what happens if we go to the Finals. I'm curious to see Scott Brooks vs Spo. Brooks is just like Spo, only I think he's less creative. He gets bailed out by Durant and Westbrook a lot just like Spo gets bailed out by Wade and Lebron.

Bosh also is a great defender now, sometimes he even anchors it in the middle. Even calling things out. Props though for having Bosh buy into the system.

Teams have made the most 3's against us and attempted. Well we're 2nd most now, Denver is ahead of us. But before we were number 1. Boston, Chicago and Philly are top 3 in 3pointers LESAT attempted (by opposition) and made. Even Cleveland has a better 3 point defense than us... 7th in the league in least made


We should just make teams hit jumpshots instead of daring them to take 3's which end up being wide open. We'll see what happens in the 2nd half.

Not sure you understand the stats or the defense but it was a good read.

I know the defense is to not give up easy buckets, but that still happens every now and again. But I get annoyed everytime there's a wide open 3 point shot. WIDE OPEN

What did I miss about the stats? The Heat are the 2nd worst in the entire league at protecting the 3 point line. While Boston, Chicago and Philly are better at it. Even Cleveland, but the thing is many people probably try to go at them inside.

With Chicago though, and even Boston, I find it impressive. I already knew Philly has this "make the other team take jumpshots than 3's", so I am not surprised.

Philly tries to stop layups first. ALL great team defenses start by denying the lane. I don't get why posters on this board don't understand that. The Heat are hardly unique in wanting to deny the lane, that makes them precisely like every other team in the league.

The secondary goal is to run teams off the 3-point line, and that's a goal of this team, just like every other team. Here's Haslem:

"With the way they shoot the ball, we can't give them 3s and give them paint points," Haslem said of the Knicks. "So we've got to try to take care of the paint first. No easy baskets, then close out on the 3s. Our defensive principles don't change. Protect the paint. Make them spray the ball. It's not an easy style to play defensively, but it's been working for us. We understand our recipe for success."

The Heat have had no trouble with this system defending from deep in the past. Whether you want to admit it or not, Miami was statistically top-10 in the league defending the 3 last season, and that was with much slower personnel in the rotation (Bibby, Arroyo, Z, Damp, etc).

But I digress. Spo does deserve praise. Miami currently has an SRS over 8. Only 20 teams in NBA history have posted an SRS over 8, and 14 of them went on to win titles (and 2 of the 6 that didn't win titles lost to another +8 SRS team, with a better SRS than them). That's pretty impressive. Miami is crushing people at an incredibly high level right now, better than e.g. 08 Celtics since Wade came back.

mopper8 wrote:Philly tries to stop layups first. ALL great team defenses start by denying the lane. I don't get why posters on this board don't understand that. The Heat are hardly unique in wanting to deny the lane, that makes them precisely like every other team in the league.

The secondary goal is to run teams off the 3-point line, and that's a goal of this team, just like every other team. Here's Haslem:

"With the way they shoot the ball, we can't give them 3s and give them paint points," Haslem said of the Knicks. "So we've got to try to take care of the paint first. No easy baskets, then close out on the 3s. Our defensive principles don't change. Protect the paint. Make them spray the ball. It's not an easy style to play defensively, but it's been working for us. We understand our recipe for success."

The Heat have had no trouble with this system defending from deep in the past. Whether you want to admit it or not, Miami was statistically top-10 in the league defending the 3 last season, and that was with much slower personnel in the rotation (Bibby, Arroyo, Z, Damp, etc).

But I digress. Spo does deserve praise. Miami currently has an SRS over 8. Only 20 teams in NBA history have posted an SRS over 8, and 14 of them went on to win titles (and 2 of the 6 that didn't win titles lost to another +8 SRS team, with a better SRS than them). That's pretty impressive. Miami is crushing people at an incredibly high level right now, better than e.g. 08 Celtics since Wade came back.

It is still flawed.

Because the Miami Heat don't play defense one on one, they like to hedge and trap and then they like to run back to their man and them off the 3 point line.

So yeah, it works, unless the opposing team isn't completely stupid and realize that defense is playing 5 on 4 and that there is someone open.

And as the person who is running back to his man, you just swing the ball, then a lot of times you will have the Heat packing the paint or they are again, over rotating...

You get the picture, it is an easy defense to beat in a 7 game series if you have 3 point shooters. Dallas proved that.

Philly is different, they play straight up not give up the 3 and want you to shoot midrange jumpers. The Heat want you to miss 3s so they can run on the break. Philly wants the team to miss the midrange shot to run on the break.

It's a totally different gambling style of defense because if the Heat opposing team doesn't miss their 3s then it's gonna be a long long long night.

CablexDeadpool wrote:Philly is different, they play straight up

This is absolutely 100% false. Philly plays a help-style defense, just like every other effective D in the league, including Chicago's (and I know how Thibs is so loved and admired on this board). Philly lets their guys sag into the lanes plenty.

You are right that Miami gambles more to get into transition for steals than Philly does though.

Is that....HIF....? Welcome back