How important is defense when discussing the top players

dancing2thabeet · Post #1 » by **dancing2thabeet** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:38 pm

Yo fellow Heat fans!

My first topic here, be gentle. So a thing that's been bugging me for quite a long time now is basically this: why do some (by some I mean many) people disregard defense when talking about top players, especially regarding the season in progress. The way I see it, the defense should be *a half* of player's grade (the other half being offense of course), not just a small part. I just don't understand how so many people have Harden as the top 10 player. Sure, he is a great scorer, very good passer, above average handles; but for god's sake, he is flat out terrible on defense. Same goes for Love; safe for rebounding, he's just not any good in any aspect on the defensive end. What am I missing here? Why do those two get into everybody's top 10 list? How important is defense when discussing top 10's and whatnot to you?

Discuss

MisterHibachi · Post #2 » by **MisterHibachi** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:43 pm

As you said it's half the game. So I place a lot of importance on it. Problem is, there isn't a lot of players who play at an all-star level on both ends. Once you do that, you're eyeing superstar status. Top 10 isn't automatically reserved for players who play both ends, it just so happens that there aren't 10 players in the league who play both ends at a high level. You can't set the top 10 list as players who are good at both ends if there aren't 10 players who reach that standard. I don't have a set top 10 list, but I think Love would make it and Harden wouldn't.

dancing2thabeet · Post #3 » by **dancing2thabeet** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:01 pm

Good point, but I do have a follow up question. If you have player A, who would get a 9/10 rating on one end and 2/10 rating on the other, would you consider him better than player B, who gets 6/10 on both ends? Is defense really "half" the grade where it is equal to the offensive "half", or is the offensive "half" more important?

quinninin · Post #4 » by **quinninin** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:56 pm

dancing2thabeet wrote:Good point, but I do have a follow up question. If you have player A, who would get a 9/10 rating on one end and 2/10 rating on the other, would you consider him better than player B, who gets 6/10 on both ends? Is defense really "half" the grade where it is equal to the offensive "half", or is the offensive "half" more important?

Is player a michael beasley?

quinninin · Post #5 » by **quinninin** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:00 pm

Serious answer tho, for me personally I think defense is more important than offense. One good examples from this year is Chicago with little to no offense getting the 4 seed.

Defense wins championships is a pretty famous quote.

dolphinatik · Post #6 » by **dolphinatik** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:14 pm

Offense is the #1 priority in this league but you also have to be able to defend somewhat to win a championship. see Dantoni Phoenix Suns

MartyCONLONNN · Post #7 » by **MartyCONLONNN** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:19 pm

quinninin wrote:Serious answer tho, for me personally I think defense is more important than offense. One good examples from this year is Chicago with little to no offense getting the 4 seed.

Defense wins championships is a pretty famous quote.

But in reality.. how far is that anemic offense going to take Chicago? They may lose in the first round.

At the same time Paul George is just as good if not better at defense than he is on offense.. as of late his offense has been in the gutter and look at how his perception has fallen off as well as his lack of contributions to wins. His team is losing and he's barely playing at an all star level.

Look at San Antonio, we almost didn't win the ship because we couldn't keep up and stop such a potent offense.. play amazing defense all you want but if you're making shots, there's nothing better. See game 5 of 2012 Finals, ain't no1 in the league going to stand a chance if we're making buckets like that.

aboogie · Post #8 » by **aboogie** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:26 pm

Balance wins championships..not just defense or just offense

followthrough · Post #9 » by **followthrough** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:52 pm

From a fan's perspective, they're only into analyzing offensive abilities. In popular culture, offensive ability is what gets someone's attention. And for the most part, offensive ability is usually the easiest skill to evaluate.

On the other hand, a coach focuses on the two, offense and defense. Ultimately, at the coach's discretion, the players that can't play defense are left out of rotations... then the fans that are only focused on offensive abilities wonder why that somebody isn't getting playing time. Believe me, coaches know this...

Take Nate Robinson as an example (I don't want to bring out Heat players because someone's gonna get defensive! :lol:

).

Post #10 » by **QUIZ** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:37 pm

I agree with what you said about Harden the media and as a result of that a lot of fans are ready to proclaim him to be a superstar a title that I feel is given out way to easily today. I think back to around 5 years ago and there were 3 clearly defined superstars in the league Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, and Kobe Bryant. There were plenty of Allstars but there was no arguing that those 3 were the top 3 players in the league. I feel like today the line between Allstar and superstar has been blurred, I blame the media for trying to hype players like James Harden or Paul George up (Stephen A. even called Curry a superstar) :noway:

. I've always felt that the league can only have 2-3 superstars the players who were clearly a cut above the rest. As far as defense goes I also point back to my original point about LBJ, Wade, and Kobe, those 3 superstars were great two way players something that has died off as of late. Here is a video I saw a couple of day ago filled with 11 minutes of Hardens defense.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVYJULACcao[/youtube]
and interestingly enough here's Stephen A. Smith's reaction to it
[tweet]https://twitter.com/stephenasmith/status/458353595021549569[/tweet]
He admits that Harden looks awful in this video but then he goes right back and pretty much says his offense is great so who cares, because that's what sells right? Now amazing two way players are becoming a rare bread so I can't really blame people too much for considering Harden to be a top 10 or top 5 player :nonono:

but at the same time I still don't like it and I would never consider a one way player like Harden to be a superstar. This trend of ignoring the defense of offensively talented players doesn't look like its going to end soon. Until we get some great new two way players in the league people are going to continue to drool over Harden, Curry, and Kevin Love.

DWadeno3 · Post #11 » by **DWadeno3** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:05 pm

The part a lot of people ignore when assessing a player is his ability to play team basketball on both ends of the floor. James Harden the individual player can give you 40 on any given night because he can score. But how well can you use him offensively? Does he play the pick and roll well, is he a good cutter and screener, is he a good decision maker overall or does he just do it all based on individual skill and talent?
The same goes for the defensive end. A good defensive player can not only hold his own individually against anybody in the league, but is a good team defender as in rotating well and on time, making good reads and thus decisions defensively based on that.

I think the prime example for an extremely gifted individual offensive player who does not play that well within an offense is Michael Beasley. Give the kid the ball and he can give you a basket. But ask him to be part of an offense and make good decisions and he'll burn you.

Joakim Noah, by the way, is the prime example for good individual and team basketball on both ends of the floor. I'm not a fan of the guy personally, but as a basketball player he's been underrated on those successful Bulls teams and only now gets recognition.

WD · Post #12 » by WD » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:22 pm

DWadeno3 wrote:The part a lot of people ignore when assessing a player is his ability to play team basketball on both ends of the floor. James Harden the individual player can give you 40 on any given night because he can score. But how well can you use him offensively? Does he play the pick and roll well, is he a good cutter and screener, is he a good decision maker overall or does he just do it all based on individual skill and talent?
The same goes for the defensive end. A good defensive player can not only hold his own individually against anybody in the league, but is a good team defender as in rotating well and on time, making good reads and thus decisions defensively based on that.

I think the prime example for an extremely gifted individual offensive player who does not play that well within an offense is Michael Beasley. Give the kid the ball and he can give you a basket. But ask him to be part of an offense and make good decisions and he'll burn you.

Joakim Noah, by the way, is the prime example for good individual and team basketball on both ends of the floor. I'm not a fan of the guy personally, but as a basketball player he's been underrated on those successful Bulls teams and only now gets recognition.

good post

SideshowBob · Post #13 » by **SideshowBob** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:22 am

dancing2thabeet wrote:Good point, but I do have a follow up question. If you have player A, who would get a 9/10 rating on one end and 2/10 rating on the other, would you consider him better than player B, who gets 6/10 on both ends? Is defense really "half" the grade where it is equal to the offensive "half", or is the offensive "half" more important?

If they were even, it would depend on the specific skillsets each player has. In the blind, I would always take the guy who bring more on the defensive end simply because defensive skillsets are more additive than offensive skillsets, therefore it is typically easier to fit a better defensive player into a system than an equivalent offensive player. In this case though, one guy is 11/20 and the other is 12/20, AND the 12/20 guy brings more on the defensive choice. Again, I want to know specific skillsets, but if what you've laid out is all I am given, I take player B.

Post #14 » by **DayofMourning** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:00 am

GD, after watching those Harden lowlights, it made me realize how much I despise him as a player. He is what is wrong with basketball. You suck Harden. EAD.

ReturnofMVP3 · Post #15 » by **ReturnofMVP3** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:59 am

If you can't play defense they aren't a top player. Scoring a bunch of points is something the likes of Corey Magette, Drew Gooden, Jerry Stackhouse could do, but if you told anyone they were ever top players you'd be laughed at by anyone with knowledge of the game. Fact is this is a two way game and top players need to bring it.

dancing2thabeet · Post #16 » by **dancing2thabeet** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:50 am

SideshowBob wrote:
dancing2thabeet wrote:Good point, but I do have a follow up question. If you have player A, who would get a 9/10 rating on one end and 2/10 rating on the other, would you consider him better than player B, who gets 6/10 on both ends? Is defense really "half" the grade where it is equal to the offensive "half", or is the offensive "half" more important?

If they were even, it would depend on the specific skillsets each player has. In the blind, I would always take the guy who bring more on the defensive end simply because defensive skillsets are more additive than offensive skillsets, therefore it is typically easier to fit a better defensive player into a system than an equivalent offensive player. In this case though, one guy is 11/20 and the other is 12/20, AND the 12/20 guy brings more on the defensive choice. Again, I want to know specific skillsets, but if what you've laid out is all I am given, I take player B.

my thoughts exactly. but somehow, everybody i talk to still takes harden over most of average-offense, great-defense players. :S

thinktellectual · Post #17 » by **thinktellectual** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:08 pm

The reason most people call great scorers "superstars" is because most people don't understand much beyond scoring. You have to understand the game to realize how bad someone is on defense and how he might score 25 but he gives up 30 on the other end AND puts his teammates in foul trouble and has them work twice as hard because they try to cover his mistakes.

And it's never been "just 3 players are superstars". NEVER. Though about 5 players at a time realistically ARE superstars.
Remember when Marbury was called (by some) a superstar ?
Someone said he was in the 20-8-50 club: good for 20 ppg, 8 ast and 50 losses.
He had nice stats, but he was a net minus for a team.

quinninin wrote:Serious answer tho, for me personally I think defense is more important than offense. One good examples from this year is Chicago with little to no offense getting the 4 seed.

Defense wins championships is a pretty famous quote.

Famous and half right.

Defense is just slightly more important than offense for winning a title.
The best defense won the title just one more time than the best offense.
The correlation between defense and winning is about the same as between offense and winning.

To win you have to be elite at one and pretty good (top 10 at worst) at the other - that's it, if you can't be elite at both.