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Probably not a popular opinion to have, but I don't care standing on my own for what I believe is right:

If you watched the game tonight, how many times down the stretch of the 4th and in OT did you think to yourself "This is a chance for Durant to show what a superstar he is and will his team to a Game 7" ???

And if you asked yourself that question, what did Durant do ?

Recap:
-Brick
-Wait in the corner for the ball to get to him, criticize teammates
-Brick
-Draw foul, make FTs
-Brick
-Turnover
-Brick
-Wait in the corner for the ball to get to him, criticize teammates
-Turnover

Meanwhile, Westbrook is willing the Thunder to a chance to win the game, offensively and defensively. When you think about the last two playoffs that both guys played together, you will remember what Westbrook did far more than you will remember what Durant did. Westbrook leaves his imprint on the game, Durant doesn't.

Fact: Durant hits one shot in crunch time or OT, the Thunder win Game 6. That's all they needed from him and he didn't deliver

A response to the replies I might receive:

"Westbrook is not better than Durant"; I could make an argument that he is, but I don't think I can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt (at least if we include the regular season). Regardless, that's not the point of this thread. The point is, Westbrook is more important to the Thunder and comes up big during big games where Durant takes a backseat. Also, he never gets on his teammates in game as much as Durant does, he gets all the criticism and handles it well, even when Durant is doing a disappearing act and his teammates are the ones getting things done.

"Westbrook is a screwup"; Yes, he does make dumb decisions sometimes, but he's more of an overall net positive than anything. He also does things that Durant won't do, like attempt to take over the game without worrying about the criticism that might come if messes up. And even when Westbrook messes up, you can look back and say "Well, they wouldn't even be in this position if it weren't for Westbrook".

"You're just saying this after tonight"; No. I have been adamantly vocal that Westbrook is the alpha-male of the Thunder and is not afraid to do things that will get him criticized by critics or draw the ire of Durant. He takes over while Durant stands in a corner waiting for his teammates to get him the ball.

Pretty much


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I always believed this.

Metaphor: if the Thunder was a sinking ship, Westbrook would be the captain, who will not abandon the ship until everyone else is out safely (i.e., he will absorb all the criticism and take responsibility for the loss in order to ensure his teammates can focus on the next game). Meanwhile, Durant is like the women and children, who are the first to get out to make it out safe (i.e., he and the media will throw his teammates under the bus because he is deemed more important than everyone else and his perception is more important than anything else).

420 wrote:Metaphor: if the Thunder was a sinking ship, Westbrook would be the captain, who will not abandon the ship until everyone else is out safely (i.e., he will absorb all the criticism and take responsibility for the loss in order to ensure his teammates can focus on the next game). Meanwhile, Durant is like the women and children, who are the first to get out to make it out safe (i.e., he and the media will throw his teammates under the bus because he is deemed more important than everyone else and his perception is more important than anything else).

Durant is Billy Zane in Titanic. LOL


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Westbrook can get a shot off anytime he wants against anyone because of his quickness, handles, and just overall incredible athleticism. KD can pretty much do the same, but he is more passive of the two.. so he doesn't look very comfortable playing with Westbrook down the stretch unless KD is really outshooting/outscoring Westbrook and being able to force Westbrook to defer.

For these reasons, the game like tonight happens way more often than not because Westbrook is the true alpha dog of the two.

For that reason, in my eyes, Westbrook is Thunder's MVP.

Either way, OKC let KD and WB have a shooting contest every game to see who gets the ball in the crunch time and that's just terrible basketball.

Those two won't coexist very much longer...Westbrook is gonna get pissed very soon that KD is the face of the franchise but he's the alpha dog


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Yes and no. Westbrook did play "better" stats wise but he also was just as much the reason they lost. He put up 30+ points, great. But then he has the key turnover or foul in a horrible situation. Remember in 2012 when he fouled Chalmers? He is just a bonehead, and can wipe out a great night of plays with one stupid one.

Durant is their MVP. If he isn't playing lights out they don't have a chance no matter what Westbrook does.

I will say though, their team from top to bottom is awful. I pointed this out in another thread, but they are literally 2-3 players deep. I think in late 2nd quarter they were saying only FOUR players had scored points. That's awful! It's not like their teammates are playing great defense either. Just a flawed team.

DivineFury wrote:Yes and no. Westbrook did play "better" stats wise but he also was just as much the reason they lost. He put up 30+ points, great. But then he has the key turnover or foul in a horrible situation. Remember in 2012 when he fouled Chalmers? He is just a bonehead, and can wipe out a great night of plays with one stupid one.

I knew I'd get a response like this ("Westbrook is a screwup") which is why I already answered it in the OP, but I'll just rehash: Westbrook is a big part of the reason they came back and forced overtime, then almost won it in overtime. If Durant had made any contributions during that span, they would've won, and no one would be talking about RW's dumb decisions. Durant didn't, so they lost and people will look back and blame Westbrook (which btw is a good thing about Westbrook that he absorbs criticism when the supposed best player on his team comes up short in the biggest game of his team's season). And even if you go back and criticize RW's dumb decisions, you can't walk away without saying "they wouldn't even be in that position if it weren't for Westbrook".

And it's not just about having better stats; Westbrook was willing the Thunder in crunch time and OT while Durant was a spectator for the most part.

DivineFury wrote:Durant is their MVP. If he isn't playing lights out they don't have a chance no matter what Westbrook does.

He wasn't necessarily lights out tonight and they had multiple chances to win. All Durant needed to do was score a basket during crunch time or OT, something that he's famous for.

420 wrote:I knew I'd get a response like this ("Westbrook is a screwup") which is why I already answered it in the OP, but I'll just rehash: Westbrook is a big part of the reason they came back and forced overtime, then almost won it in overtime.

OKC's miracle comeback games, which they do quite often, always start with Westbrook's play. Insane steals, deflections, offensive/defensive rebounds, whatever the case maybe.. the guy makes winning plays and he is non-stop. KD doesn't have that kind of motor and sheer will to win.. he has a long bomb which looks cool and makes great highlights for fans, but overall I believe that Westbrook contributes more down the stretch in so many aspects of the game, especially defensively.

But since Westbrook makes too many plays on offense (especially when KD is standing around sulking), he always gets the blame for not LETTING the MVP take over. It's not very fair at all.

You're spot on 420, anybody with an IQ for watching ball could see that. And it's the main reason like I always say that it's no way in hell those two guys play their entire careers together. Their games just don't mesh.

Like when Durant slipped on that play and got the TO, the next possession Russ took the shot like everybody in America knew he would. It was no way he was giving up the ball to a guy he feels he's just as good as or better. And that's the thing people are failing to understand. And people better believe that Russ understands this as well, and believe me when he gets that chance to sniff free agency in 2016 you can bet he'll seriously consider leaving OKC.

But yeah when Durant had the chance to be the man he failed badly. But KD steadily gets a pass on his overall play and Russ is run into the ground on everything he does.

I thought tonight that Russ played about as steady as you could play, he gave Durant his chances to operate. The Thunder never made any real moves to win until Russ made plays. Bring real it's Durant who's holding Russ back and the Thunder is confused because of it. The thought is that they should play through KD, but Russ is the heart and soul of the team. That team should be built with everyone knowing Russ is who they play through....but it's not and so we have the constant beating down of Russ.

To be fair to Durant (since my initial recap was me being a bit harsh), I'm going to post the final 5 minutes + OT of what he did (statistically) along with what Westbrook did:

Bold = Positive

Durant:

-5 minutes left in regulation
--93-89 Kevin Durant defensive rebound
--93-91 Kevin Durant makes layup (Reggie Jackson assists)
--95-91 Kevin Durant misses Running Jumper
--97-95 Kevin Durant defensive rebound
--97-96 Kevin Durant makes free throw 1 of 2
--97-97 Kevin Durant makes free throw 2 of 2
--97-99 Kevin Durant makes driving layup
--100-99 Kevin Durant lost ball turnover (Manu Ginobili steals)

-OT:
--101-103 Kevin Durant misses 14-foot jumper
--106-107 Kevin Durant misses 24-foot three point jumper
--110-107 Kevin Durant misses 24-foot three point jumper

Westbrook:

-5 minutes left in regulation:
--93-87 Russell Westbrook defensive rebound
--93-89 Russell Westbrook makes 18-foot two point shot
--93-91 Russell Westbrook bad pass (Tim Duncan steals)
--93-91 Russell Westbrook bad pass (Manu Ginobili steals)
--97-93 Russell Westbrook makes driving layup
--97-93 Danny Green bad pass (Russell Westbrook steals)
--97-95 Russell Westbrook makes two point shot
--97-95 Russell Westbrook misses layup
--101-100 Russell Westbrook makes free throw 1 of 2
--101-101 Russell Westbrook makes free throw 2 of 2

-OT:
--101-103 Russell Westbrook defensive rebound
--101-103 Russell Westbrook misses layup
--103-104 Russell Westbrook makes free throw 1 of 2
--103-105 Russell Westbrook makes free throw 2 of 2
--104-105 Russell Westbrook misses 14-foot step back jumpshot
--106-105 Russell Westbrook misses 25-foot three point jumper
--106-107 Russell Westbrook makes driving layup
--108-107 Russell Westbrook misses 15-foot jumper
--108-107 Kawhi Leonard blocks Russell Westbrook's layup
--111-107 Russell Westbrook misses 24-foot three point jumper

You can walk away with two conclusions:
-Durant played better than Westbrook (RW did have a lot more negatives and shot worse) OR
-Westbrook was more aggressive than Durant (RW's negatives are a result of him being more aggressive + Durant did nothing in OT while RW did a lot)

420 wrote:Probably not a popular opinion to have, but I don't care standing on my own for what I believe is right:

Westbrook is the exact opposite of an MVP. He gets in Durant's way.

It's Durant's fault for not asserting control of the team, but Westbrook needs to go if OKC is ever to win a title. Westbrook has the attitude of an alpha dog, but he doesn't have the basketball IQ to ever lead a team anywhere.

contract wrote:

420 wrote:Probably not a popular opinion to have, but I don't care standing on my own for what I believe is right:

Westbrook is the exact opposite of an MVP. He gets in Durant's way.

It's Durant's fault for not asserting control of the team, but Westbrook needs to go if OKC is ever to win a title. Westbrook has the attitude of an alpha dog, but he doesn't have the basketball IQ to ever lead a team anywhere.

Westbrook is naturally more aggressive than Durant. He just gets ish done

I just don't see the dog in KD, during the regular season sure but during the playoffs when things get tough. Nope. Maybe they need a traditional PG but I don't see any current PG giving them what russ does, Rondo perhaps? Move Russ to the 2

heatlespeatles wrote:

contract wrote:

420 wrote:Probably not a popular opinion to have, but I don't care standing on my own for what I believe is right:

Westbrook is the exact opposite of an MVP. He gets in Durant's way.

It's Durant's fault for not asserting control of the team, but Westbrook needs to go if OKC is ever to win a title. Westbrook has the attitude of an alpha dog, but he doesn't have the basketball IQ to ever lead a team anywhere.

Westbrook is naturally more aggressive than Durant. He just gets ish done

Yeah, the "ish" is the problem. He thinks it smells like roses.

heatlespeatles wrote:I just don't see the dog in KD, during the regular season sure but during the playoffs when things get tough. Nope. Maybe they need a traditional PG but I don't see any current PG giving them what russ does, Rondo perhaps? Move Russ to the 2

It's not that different from the Lebron/DWade situation early on. In order for Lebron to step up, DWade had to take a step back. The problem is that no one is convincing Westbrook to take a step back for anyone.

I like KD's style of play and honestly would love to have him in Miami. I can't say the same about westbrook who, it seems to me, plays like a black hole, once he gets the ball, no one sees it again. Ibaka is a damn fine player too. I'd take him on the Heat also, they need a true center.

But that's how it looked; (ha, the stats prob. won't back that up) - I think the Spurs broke them, not as bad as Miami broke the Pacers; a gross of super glue couldn't put that team back together.

Thunder got two first round picks in a deep draft to work with, they are kicking themselves because of the contract they gave to Perkins who's due 9.1 million next season, but with the rising cap and after signing their two rookies, they will still be about 6-7 million under the cap so they can add a player or two. They'll be back to the WCF unless some other team in the West makes a significant change.

contract wrote:

heatlespeatles wrote:

contract wrote:Westbrook is the exact opposite of an MVP. He gets in Durant's way.

It's Durant's fault for not asserting control of the team, but Westbrook needs to go if OKC is ever to win a title. Westbrook has the attitude of an alpha dog, but he doesn't have the basketball IQ to ever lead a team anywhere.

Westbrook is naturally more aggressive than Durant. He just gets ish done

Yeah, the "ish" is the problem. He thinks it smells like roses.

heatlespeatles wrote:I just don't see the dog in KD, during the regular season sure but during the playoffs when things get tough. Nope. Maybe they need a traditional PG but I don't see any current PG giving them what russ does, Rondo perhaps? Move Russ to the 2

It's not that different from the Lebron/DWade situation early on. In order for Lebron to step up, DWade had to take a step back. The problem is that no one is convincing Westbrook to take a step back for anyone.

Ok. I think people don't realize KDs limitations. He's not a play maker, he cannot take the ball like LeBron can consistently create his own shot or create for others in the playoffs. He's not a play maker when defense is tight. Here in lies the problem. Even if you give him the ball a million times during the game, and Westbrook just steps back from shooting Alot, I don't think they win that way. They were in this game because Westbrook willed them. Kawhi had Kd in clamps most of the night, similar to what Tony Allen does to him, even green and manu did well against him. Especially because he allows himself to be defended or he's not strong enough to get position on these guys. I watched him all night, even when Russ wanted to give him the ball many times he couldn't, because Kd couldn't get free.

They need a better system that will keep Kd moving and cutting and guys who will set picks for him even when he doesn't have the ball. Sort of like how Ray Allen plays, the difference is I doubt Kd has the stamina, but he has to work on that, he needs to get stronger. Their system is their problem more so than Westbrook. They need a new coach or get an actual point guard. Also like I said Kd needs to be a better playmaker

I hope we just close the Durant is better than LeBron debate for atleast another season.

420 wrote:

DivineFury wrote:Yes and no. Westbrook did play "better" stats wise but he also was just as much the reason they lost. He put up 30+ points, great. But then he has the key turnover or foul in a horrible situation. Remember in 2012 when he fouled Chalmers? He is just a bonehead, and can wipe out a great night of plays with one stupid one.

I knew I'd get a response like this ("Westbrook is a screwup") which is why I already answered it in the OP, but I'll just rehash: Westbrook is a big part of the reason they came back and forced overtime, then almost won it in overtime. If Durant had made any contributions during that span, they would've won, and no one would be talking about RW's dumb decisions. Durant didn't, so they lost and people will look back and blame Westbrook (which btw is a good thing about Westbrook that he absorbs criticism when the supposed best player on his team comes up short in the biggest game of his team's season). And even if you go back and criticize RW's dumb decisions, you can't walk away without saying "they wouldn't even be in that position if it weren't for Westbrook".

And it's not just about having better stats; Westbrook was willing the Thunder in crunch time and OT while Durant was a spectator for the most part.

DivineFury wrote:Durant is their MVP. If he isn't playing lights out they don't have a chance no matter what Westbrook does.

He wasn't necessarily lights out tonight and they had multiple chances to win. All Durant needed to do was score a basket during crunch time or OT, something that he's famous for.

You seem to make it sound like I think RW is a negative. I don't. But he is a bonehead, and you can't argue that. But it goes beyond that anyways. Someone mentioned in a pre-game show after one of the games about the Thunder's record when RW shoots less than like 18 shots or something like that. It was extremely one sided.

The part people forget is that he plays the PG position. When he went into attack mode to bring the team back, that was great. But Durant and the rest of the team became spectators. Not because they are all bad and didn't step up. There was nothing to step up to, RW went into ISO mode. It's no different than when Lance had that great game against us while PG struggled and didn't even get the ball for a huge stretch. He is still their best player, he needs to touch the ball. Instead Lance shot away while the rest of the team fell asleep.

You still have to run your offense through your best player. Spurs won last night because when the game was on the line they gave it to Duncan. He didn't have to take the shot but he was either going to draw 2 defenders and make a pass or get a good look. OKC was lucky to even get an OT last night to be honest. Durant should have touched the ball every possession, and should have taken all the shots at the end. His one attempt was a good look and was just a bit short. RW proceeded to throw an off balanced fadeaway that went over the backboard with loads of time left.

If you are trying to say RW had a better playoffs, then sure I can agree with that. But if you are trying to saying RW is more valuable to the Thunder than Durant, that's just wrong. Thunder are at their best when RW doesn't force the issue and they pass the ball. And most importantly when Durant is dominant.

Like I said before, if I was an OKC fan I would of wanted the ball in Durant's hands at the end of that game, and him taking the last shot or at least setting up an easy basket if he drew multiple defenders. Not crazy RW hoping or FT's or lucky baskets.