Jordan '96-'98 finals vs James 2014 Finals

homecourtloss · Post #1 » by **homecourtloss** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:06 am

I know James, like always, is going to get a lot of ****, but lost in the Spurs's dominance is just how well James played offensively. Jordan gets all the credit for winning his last three Finals, but the fact is that he played mediocre offensive basketball DESPITE getting a ton of FTs per game (about ten a game with a high of 21, 15+ 3 other times) yet the Bulls won because of their defense and rebounding and timely baskets by Jordan, NOT because Jordan was putting on a clinic every game and NOT because his offense was overwhelming and the decisive difference maker; on the contrary, the offense wasn't all that efficient. In fact, there were a lot of subpar or terrible shooting games (9-22, 5-19, 6-19, 9-22, 11-27, 15-35, 13-29, 14-33, 12-27, 9-26, 15-35 shooting games) but he was given a ton of FTs. The Heat and James had no such luck.

The numbers in parentheses represent Jordan's highs over the three year period in any of the respective categories. James deserves a lot of blame for 2011, but the nonsense of "2 out of 5" is ridiculous when you look at a player who shot that well, had three quarters in which he had 14+ points and shot near 100% TS, and was a few throwaway chucks right before being pulled in games 3, 4, and 5 from shooting 60%, 56% from three, 73% TS. James led the playoffs in Win Shares, WS/48, PER by a large margin, and ORtg for players who played 25+ min/game 57% FG, 67% TS, 124 ORtg for the playoffs. Not sure what more he could have done.

Obviously, Jordan was older during this three year run, but central point remains: James work will be distilled down to "lost 3 out of 5" when in fact he statistically outplayed another player who is given credit for winning all finals he contested.

James can't be happy with how it all ended, but as another poster posted, this should get this team to reevaluate how it wants to approach things because it can't be about all Lebron all time.

HEATVols865 · Post #2 » by **HEATVols865** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:55 am

Dude let go off LeBron's balls...MJ was the better player, the GOAT...

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CobraCommander · Post #3 » by **CobraCommander** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:01 am

Love lebron but winning matters-

krikor · Post #4 » by **krikor** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:03 am

lebron will win with us 4 more rings till he is 35, you bookmark that.
He will end as the goat!

He got as many rings as jordan now at 29!

heatlespeatles · Post #5 » by **heatlespeatles** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:18 am

QueenOfFairies wrote:Dude let go off LeBron's balls...MJ was the better player, the GOAT...

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Best scorer, weaker league. Pound for pound, all around game. LeBron Is better than him.

HEATVols865 · Post #6 » by **HEATVols865** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:23 am

Worst league? That league had 7'1 Cs beating every slasher up down low: Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Mourning, Divac...just to name a few
Fouls were harder, the league wasn't soft, dirty plays happened a lot...

Holy crap I hate LeBron bandwagon fans!

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heatlespeatles · Post #7 » by **heatlespeatles** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:31 am

QueenOfFairies wrote:Worst league? That league had 7'1 Cs beating every slasher up down low: Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Mourning, Divac...just to name a few
Fouls were harder, the league wasn't soft, dirty plays happened a lot...

Holy crap I hate LeBron bandwagon fans!

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Ok let's go, Ewings knicks not good enough, Robinson? Please, Hakeem OK but mj never played them, Shaq fine but they beat MJ in 95 remember? Mourning Hornets went good enough, divac? Child please

Most teams now are built better and play better basketball. Multiple stars on each team. The 90s is full of hofs dispersed around the league on teams full of random role players. Kind of like how the knicks are built but can never get passed Miami. The game is different now.

MJ has never played a team better than these Spurs.

Winning is a team thing. So **** that noise..
Scoring? Mj wins.

Complete ball player? LeBron all day, and no one has ever been asked to do more than him

If you want to know how MJ would fair in this league, look at Kobe. They basically have the same game, though Kobe has more range. Mj is better but his game is almost identical to Kobe's

HEATVols865 · Post #8 » by **HEATVols865** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:35 am

So I assume that if LeBron leaves you'll leave too?

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heatlespeatles · Post #9 » by **heatlespeatles** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:38 am

QueenOfFairies wrote:So I assume that if LeBron leaves you'll leave too?

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Me thinking LeBron is a better all around player than Michael has nothing to do with being a heat fan. I am /was the biggest MJ fan. But I've never seen any player like LeBron ever and I've seen MJ in Kobe. LeBron though? The guy legit can be goat regardless of his finals record. He's that good, no, he's that great.

SweetTouch · Post #10 » by **SweetTouch** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:42 am

Don't mind queen of fairies

You do realiZe why his name is that right

He was exposed awhile ago

Wilfried · Post #11 » by **Wilfried** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:21 am

It still showes basketball is a TEAM sport.

I don't like James, but he's the best there is at the moment.

HEATVols865 · Post #12 » by **HEATVols865** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:48 am

SweetTouch wrote:Don't mind queen of fairies

You do realiZe why his name is that right

He was exposed awhile ago

Funny enough, I was exposed when we signed the Big 3.
Go look at my posts beginning of the season and I called that we would not win it.
I called the Spurs in 5 or 6 maybe even a sweep and was right...

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wadeskywalker · Post #13 » by **wadeskywalker** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:54 am

QueenOfFairies wrote:
SweetTouch wrote:Don't mind queen of fairies

You do realiZe why his name is that right

He was exposed awhile ago

Funny enough, I was exposed when we signed the Big 3.
Go look at my posts beginning of the season and I called that we would not win it.
I called the Spurs in 5 or 6 maybe even a sweep and was right...

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i guess they'll have to change your name to Nostradamus now...

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Riled Up · Post #14 » by **Riled Up** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:15 pm

It's a team game, if LeBron had a teammate in these finals as good as Pippen, Rodman or Horace Grant the Heat would have another title. Scottie Pippen averaged 17 pts and 8 rebounds those years.

For that matter, who on this team even played as well as Toni Kukoc? In the '98 playoffs Kukoc AVERAGED 13 pts and 4 rebounds. That's right, that was the Bulls' guy off the bench.

I for one am shocked at how bad Wade was in the Finals. He was a liability on the floor, just shocking at how quickly he became worse than the Spurs reserves. I wonder if he'll take a contract similar to Duncan, Parker or Ginobili in order to help his team win?

zhangjiawei · Post #15 » by **zhangjiawei** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:17 pm

Check your stats.

final 1996, MJ 33 years old
6 games, 27.3 points+5.3 rebs+4.2 assists

final 1997, MJ 34 years old, also played with the flu in Game 5.
6 games, 32.3 points+7 rebs + 6 assists.
38 and 39 in Game 5 and 6.

final 1998, MJ 35 years old.
6 games, 33.5 points + 4 rebs + 2.3 assists.
45 points in last game, with winning shot.

Lebron this year: 5 games
28.2 points + 7.8 rebs + 4 assists. 29 years old.

Yep.

Tony15 · Post #16 » by **Tony15** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:35 pm

Man you people will NEVER be satisfied. Just appreciate what you have...he might not be Jordan, but he's the MJ of THIS era.

king_james_vers · Post #17 » by **king_james_vers** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:52 pm

In my opinion, one of the most absurd and ridiculous notions in all of sports (not just basketball) is the belief that losing a championship is somehow a huge blemish on a player's legacy. Somehow, someway, people convince themselves that somehow losing in the first round of the playoffs is okay, but losing in the finals is heinous and unforgivable. I mean, seriously, think about how ridiculous that is. You're telling me that LeBron being 2-0 in the finals and being eliminated early (or not making the playoffs at all) is somehow better than making the finals 5 times and losing during 3 trips there?

Basketball is a team game. LeBron played out of his mind this series. There is absolutely no way this finals loss should somehow taint his legacy.

If Phil Jackson was coaching this team, do you think we would've been dismantled these last three games? I doubt it. Maybe we still lose the series, but I doubt we're pummeled into submission. However, when MJ vs. Jordan comes up, how often do MJ fans acknowledge that Jordan had the best coach in the history of the game?

Further, did Jordan ever win a Finals series with this lopsided of a matchup? The Spurs are one of the deepest teams in recent memory. This years' Heat -- or at least the ones that showed up in the Finals -- were basically the Cleveland Heat. Wade was completely useless. Bosh was underutilized. The majority of the bench were basically corpses.

The Finals goes to show that you need a supporting cast to win. LeBron basically did everything he could, and the team was still destroyed.

homecourtloss · Post #18 » by **homecourtloss** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:16 pm

CobraCommander wrote:Love lebron but winning matters-

It does, but as my first post shows, it's somewhat ludicrous that one player gets so much credit for winning when he wasn't really offensively efficient, missed a ton of shots, got a huge number of FTs at a time when he wasn't driving as much and still winds up with TS% numbers in the low 50s, while another player puts up really amazing numbers, makes the passes necessary to teammates who can't make shots, etc., shuts down a PG whose difficult to contain, and yet is simply saddled with "he lost in the finals."

ropjhk · Post #19 » by **ropjhk** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:19 pm

Can't take anything away from Jordan because in the end he rose to the occasion and won when it mattered. Jordan is the GOAT. But these stats highlight that Lebron truly did have a great series. Lebron wasn't perfect, and there is still room for improvement in his performances, but he's only human and it's not reasonable to expect more from him.

Illmatic12 · Post #20 » by **Illmatic12** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:21 pm

Riled Up wrote:It's a team game, if LeBron had a teammate in these finals as good as Pippen, Rodman or Horace Grant the Heat would have another title. Scottie Pippen averaged 17 pts and 8 rebounds those years.

For that matter, who on this team even played as well as Toni Kukoc? In the '98 playoffs Kukoc AVERAGED 13 pts and 4 rebounds. That's right, that was the Bulls' guy off the bench.

I for one am shocked at how bad Wade was in the Finals. He was a liability on the floor, just shocking at how quickly he became worse than the Spurs reserves. I wonder if he'll take a contract similar to Duncan, Parker or Ginobili in order to help his team win?

James had a teammate better than any of those players in 2011