Shaq vs Nash 2005 MVP Debate Revisited

[Big NBA Fan]

As we all know, Shaq's best regular season - by far - in Miami was his first year, the 2004-2005 season in which he finished Runner-Up to Nash in the MVP vote.

As we remember, it was a very close race that season and it turned out to be Shaq's last truly great year in the NBA as he began declining in 2005-2006.

Does anyone else here agree with me, that nine years after that result, that Shaq absolutely deserved that MVP that season...I know Wade outplayed him in the playoffs, but Shaq was limited with the deep-thigh bruise and they were fortunate to have the best back-up C in the NBA in Zo.

My reasons:

- Shaq had much more impressive individual numbers than Nash; Nash only averaged 15 PPG.

Shaq averaged a phenomenal 23/10/3/2 on 60% shooting while only missing 5 games and being in the best shape of his life.

- The Lakers, his former team, went from making the Finals in 2004 to MISSING THE PLAYOFFS altogether the following year despite keeping Kobe in free-agency and getting two terrific players in Odom and Butler in return for Shaq.

- The Mavericks got better WITHOUT Nash despite replacing him with a rookie PG in Devin Harris.

- Nash had the best supporting cast in the NBA that year in Prime Marion, Amare, and Joe Johnson while Shaq only had one star as a team-mate in 2nd year Wade.

Nash had, by far, the more talented supporting cast. I remember when the Nash vs Shaq debate was going on at the time, the media made it seem like Amare/Marion/JJ would be nothing without Nash even though they have since proven themselves without Nash.

Meanwhile, Eddie Jones and Damon Jones have been retired for several years now and Haslem has never been an All-Star.

The media also chose to ignore the fact that Amare missed over 20 games in 2004 and he averaged 27 PPG in 2005...take ANY player that good off a team and they will suffer.

I just feel Nash received too much credit looking back on that vote 9 years later.

Do Heat fans agree that Shaq deserved that MVP over Nash?

Nash finishing with more MVP's than the likes of Shaq, Zo, Wade, Hakeem, etc. just doesn't feel right.

I know there are still people who are mad at Shaq (understandably so) over the way he quit on the Heat and trashed them on his way out, but putting those negative feelings aside, am I the only one who finds Nash over Shaq in 2005 to be a terrible decision?

I disagreed with that result then and I still disagree with it today.

However, in 2006, Nash definitely deserved the MVP. No arguments from me on that one.

What do you think?

[Big NBA Fan]

I would like to add that Nash was NEVER an MVP candidate in Dallas while Shaq was the MVP Runner-up in 1995 to David Robinson in just his 3rd year in the NBA.

D'Antoni's system is very PG friendly...put Prime Jason Kidd on that 2005 Suns team and they probably win the whole thing that year.

I think the media gave Nash too much credit and not enough credit to D'Antoni and his amazing supporting cast.

By the way, I am no fan of Shaq on a personal level. He's a horrible analyst and he was a lousy team-mate everywhere he was.

But, just sticking to basketball, I thought that result was a disgrace.

[LikeABosh]

- The Lakers, his former team, went from making the Finals in 2004 to MISSING THE PLAYOFFS altogether the following year despite keeping Kobe in free-agency and getting two terrific players in Odom and Butler in return for Shaq.

- The Mavericks got better WITHOUT Nash despite replacing him with a rookie PG in Devin Harris.

- Nash had the best supporting cast in the NBA that year in Prime Marion, Amare, and Joe Johnson while Shaq only had one star as a team-mate in 2nd year Wade.

This is all true, but none of it matters. The MVP is decided on how much you produce individually and how much that individual production affects your team. Nash was an incredibly efficient player and he led one of the most efficient offenses in history. He fed his teammates and it led to 62 wins. It's really simple why he won. Was he the best player that year? No, but he fit the balance of team success and individual success that determines who the MVP is. Shaq also had that balance...that's why the votes were fairly close.

[Dupas]

Nash over Shaq wasnt that blatant. There were some MVPS that could have gone either way but afaik the only one that bugs me is the d rose mvp..

[RJM]

It truly could have gone either way. The reason I feel Shaq should have won was because Miami gutted their team and got better for it. Phoenix merely signed someone that was tailor-made for the offense they were already running and exploded as a result. However, Phoenix managed to blow through their conference throughout the regular season, while the HEAT struggled against the Western Conference for much of the first half of the season before turning it around against Sacramento, LA, Houston, and then San Antonio.

[LikeABosh]

Nash over Shaq wasnt that blatant. There were some MVPS that could have gone either way but afaik the only one that bugs me is the d rose mvp..

Do you think Lebron should have won it?

[PaulieWal]

I see the Nash MVPs a lot like the Rose MVP. He wasn't the best player that year but was one of the Top 6-7 players in the league. His team had incredible RS success and he played a big role in it (Nash a lot more than Rose). People say that MDA has a PG friendly offense and he does but Nash was still damn good after MDA left Phoenix and they were in the WCF in 2010 against the eventual champs Lakers.

[Big NBA Fan]

Nash sucked after MDA left Phoenix; remember the disastrous Terry Porter era? He lasted just four months before being fired mainly because of the complaining from Nash/Amare and some of the other players about his system, which was completely different from D'Antoni's.

The 2010 team was coached by Alvin Gentry, who was D'Antoni's lead assistant and replaced Porter by quickly returning the Suns to their old run-and-gun system immediately after Porter was fired.

Nash was perfect for D'Antoni's system.

As I said, he was never once considered a serious MVP candidate in Dallas and they got better without him.

As for Derrick Rose winning in 2011, I think, in hindsight, it should have been Dwight.

I agreed with Rose at the time, but I was probably wrong looking back on it now.

But I have never agreed with Nash winning over Shaq.

But, as I said, Nash definitely deserved the 2006 MVP.

[dolphinatik]

if Wade didnt get hurt and we make it further in the playoffs then maybe but its fine Nash won it

[Big NBA Fan]

The Heat definitely would have been in the Finals in 2005 if Shaq/Wade never got hurt.

They both dominated the Pistons in the 2006 ECF and the Heat won in 6 games.

Plus, Shaq was declining in 2006...

2005 Heat making the Finals would have made the media look even more stupid for giving the MVP to Nash.

[RSCD3_]

Nash over Shaq wasnt that blatant. There were some MVPS that could have gone either way but afaik the only one that bugs me is the d rose mvp..

Do you think Lebron should have won it?

Howard had a better case for MVP in 2011 IMO but his team support wasn't as big.




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[Enso]

OP Stop living in the past, maaaaaaaan



honestly though I remember the hype around that phoenix time being so high. That's all the league was talking about.

[DWadeno3]

- The Lakers, his former team, went from making the Finals in 2004 to MISSING THE PLAYOFFS altogether the following year despite keeping Kobe in free-agency and getting two terrific players in Odom and Butler in return for Shaq.

- The Mavericks got better WITHOUT Nash despite replacing him with a rookie PG in Devin Harris.

- Nash had the best supporting cast in the NBA that year in Prime Marion, Amare, and Joe Johnson while Shaq only had one star as a team-mate in 2nd year Wade.

This is all true, but none of it matters. The MVP is decided on how much you produce individually and how much that individual production affects your team. Nash was an incredibly efficient player and he led one of the most efficient offenses in history. He fed his teammates and it led to 62 wins. It's really simple why he won. Was he the best player that year? No, but he fit the balance of team success and individual success that determines who the MVP is. Shaq also had that balance...that's why the votes were fairly close.

Plus, the former team debate is stupid. He claimed the Lakers got significantly worse and claims it was just because of the Shaq trade. In reality, they also lost Gary Payton and Karl Malone among other players and started guys like Chucky Atkins and Chris Mihm instead.

At the same time, the Mavs added the likes of Keith van Horn, Jerry Stackhouse, Erick Dampier and Jason Terry, who was their starting point guard and not Devin Harris that year by the way, while losing Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker.

He's pretending as if the teams didn't change significantly aside from Shaq and Nash and that's just not true.

As for the debate, Shaq could've gotten it as well, but it's not a clear snub.

[Riled Up]

Shaq absolutely deserved the MVP over Nash for all of the reasons you stated.

One fact you left out though was that Mark Stein took over that year as a lead analyst on ESPN. He had previously been a beat writer for the Mavericks and was a complete homer who openly campaigned for Nash on ESPN every night that year.

People forget that every team we faced in the playoffs that year and during the Championship run the following year made stopping Shaq their primary focus and defending Wade their second focus. Even in the NBA Finals when Wade was having the best series of his career, the Mavericks primary focus (and first option to double team) was Shaq. Wade owned the Finals but Shaq was the driving force behid our victories over the BUlls and Pstons. TNT did a terrific job showing how the Pistons were leaving Wade alone to take away Shaq.

It's a shame the way Shaq left the Heat.

[Big NBA Fan]

Shaq absolutely deserved the MVP over Nash for all of the reasons you stated.

One fact you left out though was that Mark Stein took over that year as a lead analyst on ESPN. He had previously been a beat writer for the Mavericks and was a complete homer who openly campaigned for Nash on ESPN every night that year.

People forget that every team we faced in the playoffs that year and during the Championship run the following year made stopping Shaq their primary focus and defending Wade their second focus. Even in the NBA Finals when Wade was having the best series of his career, the Mavericks primary focus (and first option to double team) was Shaq. Wade owned the Finals but Shaq was the driving force behid our victories over the BUlls and Pstons. TNT did a terrific job showing how the Pistons were leaving Wade alone to take away Shaq.

It's a shame the way Shaq left the Heat.

Nice to see that you agree! And I also agree with you that it's a shame that Shaq forced his way out of Miami. I just hope he admits it one day instead of trying to make it seem like he wanted to stay and that Riley kicked him off the team when everybody knows Shaq forced his way out.

Shaq was amazing against the Pistons in the 2006 ECF. He averaged 23/11 and was awesome in the close-out Game 6 when he put up 28/16 and 5 blocks when Wade was struggling with the flu.

If they were both healthy in 2005, they would have beaten the Pistons the previous year as well.

The fact that Nash has so many supporters in the media is not surprising; he is one of the most media-friendly players in the league.

[DBurks2818]

The Heat board of 2005 would agree with you, Big NBA Fan. I do as well (and did at the time), for all the reasons you stated. While I agree with others here that the vote count should have still been close (because Nash was still clearly the most valuable part of the Suns' success), the facts should've put Shaq ahead in the poll and not Nash.

Unfortunately, as Riled Up stated, the media loved the Suns that year because they were such a unique and fun-to-watch team, and I believe this blinded them during the voting process. Remember that the league had just gone through a very plodding style of basketball and a lot of low-scoring games that led to certain rule changes in the early part of the decade. The Suns were a very welcome sight. The Heat, however, were expected to do well and thus not as sexy of a team.

Hopefully, one day there will be robots objectively determining MVP based on advanced stats.

[SlowPaced]

Nash fully deserved his MVP. He completely changed the aura of the team, he was a full-fledged leader. Can't believe you claim to have followed the season closely and diss Nash's importance with bleak arguments like "Mavs got better without him". They had Amar'e, Marion, Johnson and Barbosa on their roster the season before. Frank Johnson was their coach for just 21 games, the rest of the season it was Mike D'Antoni and they finished the season at 29-53. They added Nash and they went 62-20. To discredit that is ludicrous.

[Big NBA Fan]

Don't you think their best scorer - Amare - missing 25 games had something to do with their dismal record prior to getting Nash?

Also, they added Q-Rich, who was pefect for D'Antoni's system due to his ability to shoot 3 pointers and he was coming off a break-out year with the Clippers.

All they needed in 2005 was a good PG - which Nash is - and the rest of their key players healthy...plus, D'Antoni turned out to be the perfect coach for that team.

Nash has received too much credit, in my opinion.

Look at Kendall Marshall last season; he was out of the league until the Lakers picked him up and he averaged almost 10 assists per game under MDA.

Put Jason Kidd, Rondo, Wall, etc. on that 2005 Suns team and they would have been great.

No Center in 2005 could have done for the Heat what Shaq did for them that season. He was a monster until his late-season thigh injury.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that one...I will never, ever agree with Nash being a 2-time MVP. It just doesn't sound right.

[LikeABosh]

Look at Kendall Marshall last season; he was out of the league until the Lakers picked him up and he averaged almost 10 assists per game under MDA.

You really need to read up on Kendall's history if you think that's how it played out. Mike Dantoni's system has nothing to do with Kendall's excellent assist numbers. In his first 3 starts as a rookie he averaged over 12 assists per game. That's without Dantoni. Go look at his career at UNC and you'll see he set the new school record for assists. Also without Dantoni. It's something Kendall is really good at and it's exactly the reason why he was drafted 13th overall a few years ago. And out of the league? What the hell are you talking about? He was traded to Washington and they had to cut him. The Lakers picked him up not even a month later. That's not out of the league. That's free agency

Put Jason Kidd, Rondo, Wall, etc. on that 2005 Suns team and they would have been great.

I'll give you Kidd because he happens to be an all-time great PG, but Rondo and Wall? What the ****? Those two guys in no way would excel in Dantoni's system. Rondo would break the 7 second rule every possession, he'd screw up the floor spacing, and he would just find a way to bring the team's efficiency ratings down to a bottom 10 team (which he has been doing for the last few years in Boston)

I'm not gonna say move on and accept Nash was the MVP because I like retrospective discussions, but this is starting to feel less like a discussion and more like a hatchet job on Nash.

[Big NBA Fan]

Nash benefited greatly from being in the right place at the right time surrounded by incredible talent.

Rondo was averaging FOURTEEN assists per game in 2011 in Boston at the beginning of the season with a line-up consisting of washed-up Shaq, past-his-prime Garnett, and an un-athletic Paul Pierce.

Ray Allen was the only guy on that starting line-up who could run with Rondo consistently.

Put Rondo with Marion/Amare/Joe Johnson in that up-tempo offense and it's scary what kind of numbers he would put up.

John Wall led the NBA in total assists last year, and with all due respect to Beal/Ariza/Gortat, they are NOWHERE near as good as Amare/Marion/Johnson.

Look at how Nash complained so much under Terry Porter and the fact that he was NEVER an MVP candidate under Don Nelson in Dallas.

D'Antoni has not received enough credit. Nash finishing his career with more MVP's than Shaq/Wade/Ewing/Barkley/Hakeem?! Sorry, I just don't agree with that.