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I haven't made a topic in a while here, but I feel this is really the only thing wrong with this team right now. Ignore the Hassan drama, ignore the Goran drama, ignore the "Wade is done/Bosh is a pussy" complaints, ignore the "we still need Beasley" crap, this is all it comes down to.

Take a look at the 3 point shooting from guys on this team. Tyler Johnson's at 46% and has been a godsend early on. CB is at 36% and has been our most consistent shooter. And it falls off a cliff from there. In 2012-2013, we had 5 guys at 41% or better, 6 at 39% or better, and our 7th best shooter, Norris Cole, was at 36%. Bosh was at 28% and only shooting 1 a game, purely a threat out there, not something we relied on or needed.

Its not like these guys are taking well defended shots. They are being left open, and bricking. Green's at 31%, Deng 31%, Goran 29%, Winslow 24%, McRoberts 14%. That is way, way, way too low.

Its extremely simple. We need to make more wide open 3's. That is it, point blank, period. Its not Hassan's fault, its not Spo's, its not Goran's (except in the case of his shooting). We just have to make more open 3's.

If 2 of those guys can get up to 35%, I promise we will win 50+ games this year. If 4 of them can do that, I believe we'll win 55+. If 4 can do that, and 2 can get over 40%, we'll win over 60. And if all 4 stay sub 31%, we'll probably finish at 45 wins or lower.

Coaching isn't going to fix that. Hassan isn't going to fix that. Putting the goddamn ball in the basket when you're wide open and 23 feet from the hoop is the only fix.

That's it.

We're next to last, if not last in FGA's as well... They should probably take more shots

Bishop45 wrote:We're next to last, if not last in FGA's as well... They should probably take more shots

Yeah but that's mostly a function of pace. We don't necessarily have to increase our pace, though increased pace does usually correlate to improved offense. But we absolutely must make more open shots.

I agree with your premise - outside shooting (mainly 3's) is crucial in todays league, and especially for us with our personal. The importance of 3's has grown greatly in the last few years, and some fans still don't give it enough attention. It's a key factor to having a good offense in todays league. It's basically a must unless you have an all time great defense and slashing game.

But You seem to ignore the fact that better shooters shot better then mediocre or bad shooters. That's why they're better shooters.

Deng is a below average shooter
Green is mediocre but extremely streaky
Goran is mediocre but needs the ball in hands a lot to be comfetrable chucking, he's not a catch and shot guy
Mcbob is below average and hardly shots anyway
Bosh is average at best (good for a big, but really mediocre as a NBA shooter)
Winslow is currently below average (upside doesn't get you points on the board)
Wade is Below average
TJ is a very good shooter
J-Rich isn't playing

So basically you have a team of mostly below average shooters, and you want them to shot like above average shooters. You can hope 1 or 2 exceed their career averages and have a great shooting year, but you can't build your team strategy around the hope that half of your rotation will have a lights out shooting year all of a sudden. Shooting is a skill, it's not luck or effort related.

RexBoyWonder wrote:I agree with your premise - outside shooting (mainly 3's) is crucial in todays league, and especially for us with our personal. The importance of 3's has grown greatly in the last few years, and some fans still don't give it enough attention. It's a key factor to having a good offense in todays league. It's basically a must unless you have an all time great defense and slashing game.

But You seem to ignore the fact that better shooters shot better then mediocre or bad shooters. That's why they're better shooters.

Deng is a below average shooter
Green is mediocre but extremely streaky
Goran is mediocre but needs the ball in hands a lot to be comfetrable chucking, he's not a catch and shot guy
Mcbob is below average and hardly shots anyway
Bosh is average at best (good for a big, but really mediocre as a NBA shooter)
Winslow is currently below average (upside doesn't get you points on the board)
Wade is Below average
TJ is a very good shooter
J-Rich isn't playing

So basically you have a team of mostly below average shooters, and you want them to shot like above average shooters. You can hope 1 or 2 exceed their career averages and have a great shooting year, but you can't build your team strategy around the hope that half of your rotation will have a lights out shooting year all of a sudden. Shooting is a skill, it's not luck or effort related.

I agree. That being said, I want others to accept that if these guys can't improve their shooting, there isn't some easy way for us to become better, and continuing to place the blame on others is silly, instead of accepting that our ceiling is defined by if we can at least be an average shooting team.

We're just not going to be great if these guys can't step up. I'm not saying our team strategy has to be built around it, but if you flat ignore the 3 point shot in today's NBA you are not going to be a good team. Its like suggesting you can be great in the NFL with an awful passing game in today's league, the game has changed.

As for what these guys ceilings are, well, besides Winslow, the others I named have all had better seasons in the past. Deng's been at 37% before on almost 3 attempts a game, Goran's hit 41% on 4 attempts a game, Green has hit 40% on 6 attempts a game, and Josh has hit 36% on 4 attempts a game. In nearly every one of those cases, they were on teams with less overall talent than this one, meaning likely less open attempts.

So there's no reason 4 of those guys can't hit 35%.

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:

RexBoyWonder wrote:I agree with your premise - outside shooting (mainly 3's) is crucial in todays league, and especially for us with our personal. The importance of 3's has grown greatly in the last few years, and some fans still don't give it enough attention. It's a key factor to having a good offense in todays league. It's basically a must unless you have an all time great defense and slashing game.

But You seem to ignore the fact that better shooters shot better then mediocre or bad shooters. That's why they're better shooters.

Deng is a below average shooter
Green is mediocre but extremely streaky
Goran is mediocre but needs the ball in hands a lot to be comfetrable chucking, he's not a catch and shot guy
Mcbob is below average and hardly shots anyway
Bosh is average at best (good for a big, but really mediocre as a NBA shooter)
Winslow is currently below average (upside doesn't get you points on the board)
Wade is Below average
TJ is a very good shooter
J-Rich isn't playing

So basically you have a team of mostly below average shooters, and you want them to shot like above average shooters. You can hope 1 or 2 exceed their career averages and have a great shooting year, but you can't build your team strategy around the hope that half of your rotation will have a lights out shooting year all of a sudden. Shooting is a skill, it's not luck or effort related.

I agree. That being said, I want others to accept that if these guys can't improve their shooting, there isn't some easy way for us to become better, and continuing to place the blame on others is silly, instead of accepting that our ceiling is defined by if we can at least be an average shooting team.

We're just not going to be great if these guys can't step up. I'm not saying our team strategy has to be built around it, but if you flat ignore the 3 point shot in today's NBA you are not going to be a good team. Its like suggesting you can be great in the NFL with an awful passing game in today's league, the game has changed.

As for what these guys ceilings are, well, besides Winslow, the others I named have all had better seasons in the past. Deng's been at 37% before on almost 3 attempts a game, Goran's hit 41% on 4 attempts a game, Green has hit 40% on 6 attempts a game, and Josh has hit 36% on 4 attempts a game. In nearly every one of those cases, they were on teams with less overall talent than this one, meaning likely less open attempts.

So there's no reason 4 of those guys can't hit 35%.

You cant just cherry pick the best shooting year of each individual and say "well if they all just match their absolute best in the same time we'll be fine". That's why statistics show averages.

And I do think there's way we can become better, that way requires trading for better shooters.

trade Deng for Ryan Anderson
Play TJ more minutes
Get Dragic to handle more, so he shoots in rhythm
Hope Winslow's shooting improves quickly
See if Greg Whittington can earn some minutes as a stretch 4
See if you can get a shooter for Mcbob (I personally like him as a player but shooting should be a top priority. Ideas on shooters we can land for him?)


All of these are options, we need to try at least some of them, something needs to be done.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE494P5gQaY[/youtube]

I agree we need to shoot better. But we also need to Fire Spo! Time now.

This is why a Deng trade is inevitable, especially since his skill set off the ball overlaps with Wade a lot. We can play Dragic and Wade together so long as Wade can cut into lanes at all times. That, however, requires the SF to be a shooter, not another guy who is great at cutting to the basket but not so great at shooting the three. Aside of that, Deng is also a good post-up player, another skill set that simply overlaps with Wade's.

I like Deng as a player, but he's simply surplus to requirements. It feels like ever since he's returned, our offensive struggles have become worse again because he doesn't really space the floor and takes space from others away.

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:I haven't made a topic in a while here, but I feel this is really the only thing wrong with this team right now. Ignore the Hassan drama, ignore the Goran drama, ignore the "Wade is done/Bosh is a pussy" complaints, ignore the "we still need Beasley" crap, this is all it comes down to.

Take a look at the 3 point shooting from guys on this team. Tyler Johnson's at 46% and has been a godsend early on. CB is at 36% and has been our most consistent shooter. And it falls off a cliff from there. In 2012-2013, we had 5 guys at 41% or better, 6 at 39% or better, and our 7th best shooter, Norris Cole, was at 36%. Bosh was at 28% and only shooting 1 a game, purely a threat out there, not something we relied on or needed.

Its not like these guys are taking well defended shots. They are being left open, and bricking. Green's at 31%, Deng 31%, Goran 29%, Winslow 24%, McRoberts 14%. That is way, way, way too low.

Its extremely simple. We need to make more wide open 3's. That is it, point blank, period. Its not Hassan's fault, its not Spo's, its not Goran's (except in the case of his shooting). We just have to make more open 3's.

If 2 of those guys can get up to 35%, I promise we will win 50+ games this year. If 4 of them can do that, I believe we'll win 55+. If 4 can do that, and 2 can get over 40%, we'll win over 60. And if all 4 stay sub 31%, we'll probably finish at 45 wins or lower.

Coaching isn't going to fix that. Hassan isn't going to fix that. Putting the goddamn ball in the basket when you're wide open and 23 feet from the hoop is the only fix.

That's it.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6gsY8aDhpc[/youtube]

DWadeno3 wrote:This is why a Deng trade is inevitable, especially since his skill set off the ball overlaps with Wade a lot. We can play Dragic and Wade together so long as Wade can cut into lanes at all times. That, however, requires the SF to be a shooter, not another guy who is great at cutting to the basket but not so great at shooting the three. Aside of that, Deng is also a good post-up player, another skill set that simply overlaps with Wade's.

I like Deng as a player, but he's simply surplus to requirements. It feels like ever since he's returned, our offensive struggles have become worse again because he doesn't really space the floor and takes space from others away.

Agree mostly, that said I think the bigger issue isn't Deng's return, but TJ's absence, as he has been our best and most consistent shooter this season.

But yeah, Deng does not bring the things we need at all. Even though they're shooting the same percentage now, Green is far more likely to kick that up a notch than Deng. And when it comes to the other things Deng brings, Winslow is almost as capable already and has plenty of room to grow.

And Rex I think you're misunderstanding me, I don't think we are really that far off in what we're saying. I know its unlikely all of these guys hit their career highs (although 35% is actually below all of their career highs anyways), but its not too much to ask that a couple of them improve somewhat. And for most of them, these percentages are below their career marks as is. GG is 36%, Deng 33%, Goran 36%, McBob 34%. So I hardly think asking these guys to shoot their career average is an unfair expectation.