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Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing

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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1941 » by KingDavid » Mon Jun 4, 2018 8:44 pm

Cmon_Son-_- wrote:
twix2500 wrote:I have seen McGee, Love and Durant get more low post plays than Hassan the entire season in this game.

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You severely overrate Whiteside's post game here's 4 of his best scoring games and watch how he scores the majority of his baskets. Its mostly from lobs,designed plays and effort plays(O-rebounds, pick n roll, cuts, etc...) In the 4 videos combines he probably scored with back to basket moves like 6-7 times total and maybe 2 of them came from isolations. There's a reason why he didnt have many of those plays its just not a strength.




Pull up videos from the previous season. This season is when we changed our offense.
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Re: RE: Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1942 » by heat4life » Mon Jun 4, 2018 9:49 pm

twix2500 wrote:
Cmon_Son-_- wrote:
twix2500 wrote:


Did I ever say he scores by posting up. You are backing my point. HE NEVERS gets the oppurtunity. For the millionth time, the Heat do not run post plays. If he gets the ball in the low post its random, not by design.

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Like i've said before we don't run plays to him because its not a strength of his it'll be hurting the offense even more if we're constantly trying to feed an average to sub par offensive player. We're better when Whiteside plays clean up man. Every time he's playing with some energy he gets rewarded with touches but he's too inconsistent with is effort so you never know what you're getting.
See that's where I disagree, Spo doesn't run post plays for no one. Not even LeBron. To say Spo doesn't run plays for him in the low post because it will not be successful, then what's the excuse for running plays for Waiters that's gets him 15 shots a game at 33%? If you gonna pay someone 25 mill per, you should be allowing him to work it out on the court not Waiters.

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I get that you would like to see Hassan more involved on the offense but your examples are to the extreme. Waiters averages almost 4 assists per game. He can penetrate and create for others. His finishing is suspect but he is someone who can create shots for himself and others. He is a low percentage guy but at least he can trigger the offense. Same with JJ, Dragic, TJ, Winslow, Richardson, Wade and Olynyk ( almost 3apg).

Hassan? Not so much. He's never averaged 1 assist per game until this season. Still an EXTREMELY LOW number if you are running the offense thru him. Now, you can say that he's never had the chance to playmake? I will disagree.

If you watch him play, he makes clumsy moves to the basket that often end up on fumbles. He is long as heck so he finished some of his shots but he NEVER looks for another action on the offense before he makes a move. How do you expect to run your offense thru someone like that? It's instant failure.

That is why teams have learned to stay up on Hassan because he is going to make a dribble move to the basket 99% of the time. Hassan can't back you down or does not use foot work to work the defender nor will he look to pass. Hassan will not even attempt a sky hook, face-up move or a mid-range shot. He says he was not allowed to. I call BS because he has done within the flow of the offense.He is just limited offensively.

His value is on grabbing offensive/defensive rebounds, blocking shots, making lane drivers uncomfortable and dunking on people when he grabs that ball off the air with his long arms. When he shows energy, he gets his 20pts 12 rebounds 4 blocks but when there is no energy, he is just average. His body language becomes toxic and mental lapses impact his one strength, defense.

I want Hassan to work for the team as much as you. If he shows consistent energy and does the things that he excels at, then I'll jump on the "get him the damn ball" bandwagon. I just don't see how that is going to happen with his current disposition.
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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1943 » by Cmon_Son-_- » Mon Jun 4, 2018 11:10 pm

KingDavid wrote:
Cmon_Son-_- wrote:
twix2500 wrote:I have seen McGee, Love and Durant get more low post plays than Hassan the entire season in this game.

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You severely overrate Whiteside's post game here's 4 of his best scoring games and watch how he scores the majority of his baskets. Its mostly from lobs,designed plays and effort plays(O-rebounds, pick n roll, cuts, etc...) In the 4 videos combines he probably scored with back to basket moves like 6-7 times total and maybe 2 of them came from isolations. There's a reason why he didnt have many of those plays its just not a strength.
Spoiler:



[youtube]QU-0lHphDnE[/youtube
]

Pull up videos from the previous season. This season is when we changed our offense.

Id say its still mostly the same that spurs game probably was his post game at its best.
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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1944 » by MettaWorldPanda » Mon Jun 4, 2018 11:40 pm

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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1945 » by IggieCC » Tue Jun 5, 2018 12:48 am

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1946 » by twix2500 » Tue Jun 5, 2018 1:29 am

heat4life wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
Cmon_Son-_- wrote:Like i've said before we don't run plays to him because its not a strength of his it'll be hurting the offense even more if we're constantly trying to feed an average to sub par offensive player. We're better when Whiteside plays clean up man. Every time he's playing with some energy he gets rewarded with touches but he's too inconsistent with is effort so you never know what you're getting.
See that's where I disagree, Spo doesn't run post plays for no one. Not even LeBron. To say Spo doesn't run plays for him in the low post because it will not be successful, then what's the excuse for running plays for Waiters that's gets him 15 shots a game at 33%? If you gonna pay someone 25 mill per, you should be allowing him to work it out on the court not Waiters.

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I get that you would like to see Hassan more involved on the offense but your examples are to the extreme. Waiters averages almost 4 assists per game. He can penetrate and create for others. His finishing is suspect but he is someone who can create shots for himself and others. He is a low percentage guy but at least he can trigger the offense. Same with JJ, Dragic, TJ, Winslow, Richardson, Wade and Olynyk ( almost 3apg).

Hassan? Not so much. He's never averaged 1 assist per game until this season. Still an EXTREMELY LOW number if you are running the offense thru him. Now, you can say that he's never had the chance to playmake? I will disagree.

If you watch him play, he makes clumsy moves to the basket that often end up on fumbles. He is long as heck so he finished some of his shots but he NEVER looks for another action on the offense before he makes a move. How do you expect to run your offense thru someone like that? It's instant failure.

That is why teams have learned to stay up on Hassan because he is going to make a dribble move to the basket 99% of the time. Hassan can't back you down or does not use foot work to work the defender nor will he look to pass. Hassan will not even attempt a sky hook, face-up move or a mid-range shot. He says he was not allowed to. I call BS because he has done within the flow of the offense.He is just limited offensively.

His value is on grabbing offensive/defensive rebounds, blocking shots, making lane drivers uncomfortable and dunking on people when he grabs that ball off the air with his long arms. When he shows energy, he gets his 20pts 12 rebounds 4 blocks but when there is no energy, he is just average. His body language becomes toxic and mental lapses impact his one strength, defense.

I want Hassan to work for the team as much as you. If he shows consistent energy and does the things that he excels at, then I'll jump on the "get him the damn ball" bandwagon. I just don't see how that is going to happen with his current disposition.
Woooo let's overhype Waiter 4 assist to allow 15 bad shots and 2 turnovers a game the biggest contributor to making the offense hot ass.

Well again the debate wasn't about Hassan. Let's see when Spo run some post plays for Bam.

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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1947 » by Chalm Down » Tue Jun 5, 2018 1:47 am

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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1948 » by Feel_the_Heat15 » Tue Jun 5, 2018 2:42 am

Why do we keep talking about post-plays? Post-ups are so outdated in today's NBA that 3 of the top 7 players in post-up attempts are Aldridge, Randolph, Howard and Marc Gasol. It's also a really uneffecient shot. Embiid is one of best centers in the NBA and he only makes 50% of his shot attempts on post-ups. Unless you're a skilled shooter, you're only real job as a center on offense should be getting offensive rebounds, dunking and catching lobs. Works for some of the best centers in the league and it worked for Hassan too till we decided he should be a bigger part of the offense.
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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1949 » by HeatFanLifer » Tue Jun 5, 2018 3:39 am

contract wrote:
caliban wrote:
MettaWorldPanda wrote:We signed Kelly Olynyk. He had a career year under Spo.


Com'on Panda. You know that was the point I made with a heavy dose of sarcasm.

This is what I get for not reading the whole thread. I got all wound up over nothing. :oops:



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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1950 » by Bishop45 » Tue Jun 5, 2018 4:46 am

"Let's not overhype Waiters 4:2 assist ratio but talk about how our blackhole of a C doesn't get any post plays, an inefficient play at which he's not well versed"

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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1951 » by insfo » Tue Jun 5, 2018 6:49 am

maybe I was imagining it, but isn’t Wade constantly at the elbows trying to post up? And wasn’t the big change we made to raise Lebron’s efficiency was getting him to play in the post - something he had resisted all his career until he landed here??
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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1952 » by Chalm Down » Tue Jun 5, 2018 9:10 am

KingDavid wrote:
Cmon_Son-_- wrote:
twix2500 wrote:I have seen McGee, Love and Durant get more low post plays than Hassan the entire season in this game.

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You severely overrate Whiteside's post game here's 4 of his best scoring games and watch how he scores the majority of his baskets. Its mostly from lobs,designed plays and effort plays(O-rebounds, pick n roll, cuts, etc...) In the 4 videos combines he probably scored with back to basket moves like 6-7 times total and maybe 2 of them came from isolations. There's a reason why he didnt have many of those plays its just not a strength.

Pull up videos from the previous season. This season is when we changed our offense.


He wasn't good at post-ups in 16-17 either...below average in points per possession compared to guys who posted up as often as him

https://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PossG&dir=1

Much more effective with pick-and-roll finishing, cuts, and putbacks

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PossG&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/cut/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PossG&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/putbacks/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PossG&dir=1
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Re: RE: Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1953 » by twix2500 » Tue Jun 5, 2018 11:08 am

Feel_the_Heat15 wrote:Why do we keep talking about post-plays? Post-ups are so outdated in today's NBA that 3 of the top 7 players in post-up attempts are Aldridge, Randolph, Howard and Marc Gasol. It's also a really uneffecient shot. Embiid is one of best centers in the NBA and he only makes 50% of his shot attempts on post-ups. Unless you're a skilled shooter, you're only real job as a center on offense should be getting offensive rebounds, dunking and catching lobs. Works for some of the best centers in the league and it worked for Hassan too till we decided he should be a bigger part of the offense.
When you post up just like driving to the basket, you draw contac, you draw fouls. Drawing fouls has a HUGE impact in the game. Which is what makes great players great. The purpose of spreading the floor is to open the paint. If you are not exploiting the space in the paint by either driving or post up, then the spreading the floor is pointless.

The NBA post up stats that Chalm presented, does not represent Whiteside getting 4 designed post up plays. Those 4 possessions are off of pick n rolls, where a player like dragic is driving to score and defenders crash the paint, he drops it off to whiteside who is also crowded in the paint with a man or two on his back.

And lord do not look up Waiters 2 point shots. 15 bad shots just to get 4 assist. Talking about black hole.

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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1954 » by twix2500 » Tue Jun 5, 2018 12:25 pm

This is how Whiteside gets his post possessions. These are not design to put him in post up position. It's Pick N Roll and dropping him the ball when it's well defended. This is 2016-17 season, they were not running 4 designed low post plays for him. ImageImageImage

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Re: RE: Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1955 » by twix2500 » Tue Jun 5, 2018 12:39 pm

twix2500 wrote:This is how Whiteside gets his post possessions. These are not design to put him in post up position. It's Pick N Roll and dropping him the ball when it's well defended. This is 2016-17 season, they were not running 4 designed low post plays for him.
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If it's not that, then he is getting the ball 15 feet out posts in triangle formation, then turns and takes the jump shot. Essentially they are not running low post up plays for him.

The idea of running a low post up play is to get him in a efficient scoring position. Efficient Post up position is created before a player gets the ball. Just like shooting a 3 pointer, every 3 point shot is not a good shot.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1956 » by heat4life » Tue Jun 5, 2018 12:55 pm

twix2500 wrote:
heat4life wrote:
twix2500 wrote:See that's where I disagree, Spo doesn't run post plays for no one. Not even LeBron. To say Spo doesn't run plays for him in the low post because it will not be successful, then what's the excuse for running plays for Waiters that's gets him 15 shots a game at 33%? If you gonna pay someone 25 mill per, you should be allowing him to work it out on the court not Waiters.

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I get that you would like to see Hassan more involved on the offense but your examples are to the extreme. Waiters averages almost 4 assists per game. He can penetrate and create for others. His finishing is suspect but he is someone who can create shots for himself and others. He is a low percentage guy but at least he can trigger the offense. Same with JJ, Dragic, TJ, Winslow, Richardson, Wade and Olynyk ( almost 3apg).

Hassan? Not so much. He's never averaged 1 assist per game until this season. Still an EXTREMELY LOW number if you are running the offense thru him. Now, you can say that he's never had the chance to playmake? I will disagree.

If you watch him play, he makes clumsy moves to the basket that often end up on fumbles. He is long as heck so he finished some of his shots but he NEVER looks for another action on the offense before he makes a move. How do you expect to run your offense thru someone like that? It's instant failure.

That is why teams have learned to stay up on Hassan because he is going to make a dribble move to the basket 99% of the time. Hassan can't back you down or does not use foot work to work the defender nor will he look to pass. Hassan will not even attempt a sky hook, face-up move or a mid-range shot. He says he was not allowed to. I call BS because he has done within the flow of the offense.He is just limited offensively.

His value is on grabbing offensive/defensive rebounds, blocking shots, making lane drivers uncomfortable and dunking on people when he grabs that ball off the air with his long arms. When he shows energy, he gets his 20pts 12 rebounds 4 blocks but when there is no energy, he is just average. His body language becomes toxic and mental lapses impact his one strength, defense.

I want Hassan to work for the team as much as you. If he shows consistent energy and does the things that he excels at, then I'll jump on the "get him the damn ball" bandwagon. I just don't see how that is going to happen with his current disposition.
Woooo let's overhype Waiter 4 assist to allow 15 bad shots and 2 turnovers a game the biggest contributor to making the offense hot ass.

Well again the debate wasn't about Hassan. Let's see when Spo run some post plays for Bam.

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Where am I over-hyping Waiters assists? I am not celebrating him as the ultimate playmaker nor am I writing posts calling for the coach to give him the ball more when he doesn't deserve it. Please don't make this about Waiters either. I am just pointing out the bad example you gave for your argument. Comparing Hassan with a guard triggering the offense is nonsense.

Maybe you can find a better example? Try the two centers on his same team. Bam and Olynyk don't get the ball either. So how in the world does Olynyk gets those big scoring number? Because he is a very good passer, screener-and-roll and a very opportunistic scorer. If Olynyk (or Hassan) were Shaq or Embiid, they would run the offense thru them.

IMO, Hassan just wants Embiid touches and the same spotlight but he is nowhere near the player Embiid is. Rudy Gobert is closer to what Hassan could be and doesn't get may plays called for him either because it is not his strength and he is a better passer and player -right now- than Hassan.

If Hassan stops sulking, plays with energy all game and takes a page from Olynyk and be the opportunistic scorer he's shown he can be, then you'll get the Hassan from last season's Game 1 (regular season). It's simple, that's what we want, that's what we need. If he does that consistently, I am sure the occasional mid-range J's and post-ups will come. At this point the frustration from fans is because everyone just want him to shut-up-and play!

By the way, unless Bam becomes Lamarcus Aldridge this summer, don't expect him to get the ball on the post either.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1957 » by twix2500 » Tue Jun 5, 2018 1:04 pm

heat4life wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
heat4life wrote:
I get that you would like to see Hassan more involved on the offense but your examples are to the extreme. Waiters averages almost 4 assists per game. He can penetrate and create for others. His finishing is suspect but he is someone who can create shots for himself and others. He is a low percentage guy but at least he can trigger the offense. Same with JJ, Dragic, TJ, Winslow, Richardson, Wade and Olynyk ( almost 3apg).

Hassan? Not so much. He's never averaged 1 assist per game until this season. Still an EXTREMELY LOW number if you are running the offense thru him. Now, you can say that he's never had the chance to playmake? I will disagree.

If you watch him play, he makes clumsy moves to the basket that often end up on fumbles. He is long as heck so he finished some of his shots but he NEVER looks for another action on the offense before he makes a move. How do you expect to run your offense thru someone like that? It's instant failure.

That is why teams have learned to stay up on Hassan because he is going to make a dribble move to the basket 99% of the time. Hassan can't back you down or does not use foot work to work the defender nor will he look to pass. Hassan will not even attempt a sky hook, face-up move or a mid-range shot. He says he was not allowed to. I call BS because he has done within the flow of the offense.He is just limited offensively.

His value is on grabbing offensive/defensive rebounds, blocking shots, making lane drivers uncomfortable and dunking on people when he grabs that ball off the air with his long arms. When he shows energy, he gets his 20pts 12 rebounds 4 blocks but when there is no energy, he is just average. His body language becomes toxic and mental lapses impact his one strength, defense.

I want Hassan to work for the team as much as you. If he shows consistent energy and does the things that he excels at, then I'll jump on the "get him the damn ball" bandwagon. I just don't see how that is going to happen with his current disposition.
Woooo let's overhype Waiter 4 assist to allow 15 bad shots and 2 turnovers a game the biggest contributor to making the offense hot ass.

Well again the debate wasn't about Hassan. Let's see when Spo run some post plays for Bam.

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Where am I over-hyping Waiters assists? I am not celebrating him as the ultimate playmaker nor am I writing posts calling for the coach to give him the ball more when he doesn't deserve it. Please don't make this about Waiters. I am just pointing out the bad example you gave for your argument. Comparing Hassan with a guard triggering the offense is nonsense.

Maybe you can find a better example? Try the two centers on his same team. Bam and Olynyk don't get the ball either. So how in the world does Olynyk gets those big scoring number? Because he is a very good passer, screener-and-roll and a very opportunistic scorer. If Olynyk (or Hassan) were Shaq or Embiid, they would run the offense thru them.

IMO, Hassan just wants Embiid touches and the same spotlight but he is nowhere near the player Embiid is. Rudy Gobert is closer to what Hassan could be and doesn't get may plays called for him either because it is not his strength and he is a better passer and player -right now- than Hassan.

If Hassan stops sulking, plays with energy all game and takes a page from Olynyk and be the opportunistic scorer he's shown he can be, then you'll get the Hassan from last season's Game 1 (regular season). It's simple, that's what we want, that's what we need. If he does that consistently, I am sure the occasional mid-range J's and post-ups will come. At this point the frustration from fans is because everyone just want him to shut-up-and play!


My debate was not about Hassan. The argument was about Bam. Someone said, spo would run post plays if Hassan was good at posting. My argument is Spo doesnt not believe in running low post plays. Never has, even if Shaq was here he would be reluctant. Spo runs pick and roll or pops plays. Olynyk fits that scheme that Spo runs. Bam practicing posting up on the low block is preparing himself for an oppurtunity that will never come. We are a pick n roll offense, plays called by spo that allows Waiters to shoot 15 times a game. Your argument is he wouldnt call the play if it wasnt successful. Well Waiters is the least successful player on the team. Just because he is a guard, is not an excuse to get him 15 shots. Waiters quality of play should be lowered to 4 shots a game lol. If it wasnt for that stretch of good games he had. He would likely not be on the team.

I would be absolutely floored to see Spo actually run a designed low post play for Bam. Now, there those in here that do not believe in running low post plays. I am not gonna argue that because, everyone has their own philosophy. But my point is Bam appears to be preparing himself for a scheme that is not being run here.
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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1958 » by contract » Tue Jun 5, 2018 1:19 pm

This offseason already sucks, and it isn't even the offseason yet. Shut this thread down and try again! :nonono:
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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1959 » by J-House » Tue Jun 5, 2018 1:47 pm

When it comes down to it, we don’t NEED Hassan for us to be a good team. I say trade him for the best package you can get.
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Re: Miami Heat 2018 Offseason Thread 1.0 - let's go fishing 

Post#1960 » by twix2500 » Tue Jun 5, 2018 1:55 pm

J-House wrote:When it comes down to it, we don’t NEED Hassan for us to be a good team. I say trade him for the best package you can get.


Who on this team do we need :lol:

This is low post play. The Heat do not run this. Just because a player randomly get the ball somewhere with his back to basket doesnt mean its a low post play.



Do you really think Bam is gonna get low post plays??

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