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Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK

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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1401 » by Feel_the_Heat15 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:59 am

eddieheatfan wrote:
twix2500 wrote:Who do you have as the top 8 teams in the east?

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miami should be a 6th seed at best or an 8th seed at worst.i'd be surprised if they dont make the playoffs again.this team has way to go to be a top seeder type of team or a contender


3rd seed at best. 6th seed had 42 wins last season...
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1402 » by HeatFanLifer » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:23 am

MHeat0279 wrote:By the way those of you who did not know, Sling Tv and Dish dropped Fox Sports Florida, they did not reach an agreement, so i guess if you want to watch the Heat and have those companies you should jump to another provider.


So fed up with cable service in general. I think I’m gonna get the NBA League Pass. Heat games aren’t on here in Chalm Zone land and it sounds like there is no better option.
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1403 » by MartyConlonJr » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:27 am

twix2500 wrote:Who do you have as the top 8 teams in the east?

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Milwaukee
Toronto
Philly
Miami
Boston
Indiana
Brooklyn
Either Atlanta, Orlando or Detroit. Ill go Atlanta
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1404 » by HeatFanLifer » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:34 am

Feel_the_Heat15 wrote:I'm guessing that Heat v. Orlando will be one of our first 5 games.


Nope, Iggie can’t screw us in an ORL thread until next year.

caliban wrote:Anyone know the 4 teams in the east they face 3 times instead if 4?


Mil, Tor, Det, Bkn
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1405 » by MartyConlonJr » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:28 am

kobewade11 wrote:I pitched Okafor last summer when he was available for cheap as a young reclamation project, the board wasn't interested.


His advanced stats last year were still pretty bad. Raw numbers ok when given mins. I don't remember being particularly for or against him in Miami except depth was never a problem for us last year, parlaying or developing players to end up with semi-elite or elite players was where we needed to be. Jahlil hadn't given any indications that he could be servicable, let alone next tier.

I think my perspective last year was maybe being around Winslow and being in shape may have made him comfortable and improved enough to contribute, but it wasn't going to move the dial.

Although if you found a quote from me being more negative than that it wouldn't hugely surprise me.
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1406 » by twix2500 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:38 pm

MartyConlonJr wrote:
kobewade11 wrote:I pitched Okafor last summer when he was available for cheap as a young reclamation project, the board wasn't interested.


His advanced stats last year were still pretty bad. Raw numbers ok when given mins. I don't remember being particularly for or against him in Miami except depth was never a problem for us last year, parlaying or developing players to end up with semi-elite or elite players was where we needed to be. Jahlil hadn't given any indications that he could be servicable, let alone next tier.

I think my perspective last year was maybe being around Winslow and being in shape may have made him comfortable and improved enough to contribute, but it wasn't going to move the dial.

Although if you found a quote from me being more negative than that it wouldn't hugely surprise me.
During his nine game stretch that he started his advance numbers were not bad. Okafor reminds me a lot of Waiters. Both have very good physical talent with very good skills. But it's about getting or staying in shape, be responsible on defense and learn how to apply their offensive talents in a functional way. Also apply that one talent that they neglect, Dion being passing and Okafor being rebounding.

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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1407 » by AirP. » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:52 pm

twix2500 wrote:
MartyConlonJr wrote:
kobewade11 wrote:I pitched Okafor last summer when he was available for cheap as a young reclamation project, the board wasn't interested.


His advanced stats last year were still pretty bad. Raw numbers ok when given mins. I don't remember being particularly for or against him in Miami except depth was never a problem for us last year, parlaying or developing players to end up with semi-elite or elite players was where we needed to be. Jahlil hadn't given any indications that he could be servicable, let alone next tier.

I think my perspective last year was maybe being around Winslow and being in shape may have made him comfortable and improved enough to contribute, but it wasn't going to move the dial.

Although if you found a quote from me being more negative than that it wouldn't hugely surprise me.
During his nine game stretch that he started his advance numbers were not bad. Okafor reminds me a lot of Waiters. Both have very good physical talent with very good skills. But it's about getting or staying in shape, be responsible on defense and learn how to apply their offensive talents in a functional way. Also apply that one talent that they neglect, Dion being passing and Okafor being rebounding.

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Although some of those games were legit and against solid starters, a number of the games had lesser defensive big men starting which gave Okafor an advantage he'll usually not see moving forward(at least not as bad as he played against in those games).

Jahlil Okafor is offensively gifted and always been able to score. Yes he is getting more efficient but you should expect that from a young big in the NBA, the experience and added strength help in that regard but his defense is still subpar but now that he's "struggling" to make it in the NBA he's giving more effort on the defensive end but if he gets a "decent" contract that might change. He's a guy who wants to score and that's about it, he's the Andrew Wiggins of bigs.
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1408 » by twix2500 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:16 pm

AirP. wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
MartyConlonJr wrote:
His advanced stats last year were still pretty bad. Raw numbers ok when given mins. I don't remember being particularly for or against him in Miami except depth was never a problem for us last year, parlaying or developing players to end up with semi-elite or elite players was where we needed to be. Jahlil hadn't given any indications that he could be servicable, let alone next tier.

I think my perspective last year was maybe being around Winslow and being in shape may have made him comfortable and improved enough to contribute, but it wasn't going to move the dial.

Although if you found a quote from me being more negative than that it wouldn't hugely surprise me.
During his nine game stretch that he started his advance numbers were not bad. Okafor reminds me a lot of Waiters. Both have very good physical talent with very good skills. But it's about getting or staying in shape, be responsible on defense and learn how to apply their offensive talents in a functional way. Also apply that one talent that they neglect, Dion being passing and Okafor being rebounding.

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Although some of those games were legit and against solid starters, a number of the games had lesser defensive big men starting which gave Okafor an advantage he'll usually not see moving forward(at least not as bad as he played against in those games).

Jahlil Okafor is offensively gifted and always been able to score. Yes he is getting more efficient but you should expect that from a young big in the NBA, the experience and added strength help in that regard but his defense is still subpar but now that he's "struggling" to make it in the NBA he's giving more effort on the defensive end but if he gets a "decent" contract that might change. He's a guy who wants to score and that's about it, he's the Andrew Wiggins of bigs.
So basically you calling him a bluff to change. I would too if he never worked hard to get his body right. If he does so for 2 yrs, I have some optimism that he is now dedicated. I don't expect him to be a good defender, but at least a better than Olynyk do to better shot blocking and rebounding.

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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1409 » by AirP. » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:46 pm

twix2500 wrote:
AirP. wrote:Although some of those games were legit and against solid starters, a number of the games had lesser defensive big men starting which gave Okafor an advantage he'll usually not see moving forward(at least not as bad as he played against in those games).

Jahlil Okafor is offensively gifted and always been able to score. Yes he is getting more efficient but you should expect that from a young big in the NBA, the experience and added strength help in that regard but his defense is still subpar but now that he's "struggling" to make it in the NBA he's giving more effort on the defensive end but if he gets a "decent" contract that might change. He's a guy who wants to score and that's about it, he's the Andrew Wiggins of bigs.
So basically you calling him a bluff to change. I would too if he never worked hard to get his body right. If he does so for 2 yrs, I have some optimism that he is now dedicated. I don't expect him to be a good defender, but at least a better than Olynyk do to better shot blocking and rebounding.

I'm just saying he could be doing extra to try to get a contract and then once that happens go back to his old ways. Getting into great shape when you're out of the league trying to get into the league doesn't mean all that much to me, it reeks of desperation not just trying to get better because he wants to get better(which are the types of players I'd want). I'd personally look at Okafor's current situation as the same as some fringe player on the last year of his contract wanting a big pay day, I'm not saying I'm right about that but that's what it feels like to me.

Maybe Okafor being on the outside looking in has changed his viewpoint on needing to work to be in the NBA and/or maybe he's becoming more mature, both are possible but it's absolutely possible knowing if he works for a year or 2 he can make millions in the NBA vs having to go overseas to try to make some money.

The problem for a team that adds Okafor is keeping him happy offensively, giving him his touches, wasn't Whiteside like this and it seems almost everyone was happy with him being traded even though his advanced stats for the team looked great. Whiteside's ORTG was 112 and 111 the last 2 years and his DRTG was 99 both years, basically playing at least as a +12 per 100 possessions the last 2 years, that's pretty significant.
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1410 » by MHeat0279 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:03 pm

HeatFanLifer wrote:
MHeat0279 wrote:By the way those of you who did not know, Sling Tv and Dish dropped Fox Sports Florida, they did not reach an agreement, so i guess if you want to watch the Heat and have those companies you should jump to another provider.


So fed up with cable service in general. I think I’m gonna get the NBA League Pass. Heat games aren’t on here in Chalm Zone land and it sounds like there is no better option.


Youtube tv, hulu and some others still carry fox regional network
just trying out youtube tv, pretty happy with it up to this point
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1411 » by twix2500 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:09 pm

AirP. wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
AirP. wrote:Although some of those games were legit and against solid starters, a number of the games had lesser defensive big men starting which gave Okafor an advantage he'll usually not see moving forward(at least not as bad as he played against in those games).

Jahlil Okafor is offensively gifted and always been able to score. Yes he is getting more efficient but you should expect that from a young big in the NBA, the experience and added strength help in that regard but his defense is still subpar but now that he's "struggling" to make it in the NBA he's giving more effort on the defensive end but if he gets a "decent" contract that might change. He's a guy who wants to score and that's about it, he's the Andrew Wiggins of bigs.
So basically you calling him a bluff to change. I would too if he never worked hard to get his body right. If he does so for 2 yrs, I have some optimism that he is now dedicated. I don't expect him to be a good defender, but at least a better than Olynyk do to better shot blocking and rebounding.

I'm just saying he could be doing extra to try to get a contract and then once that happens go back to his old ways. Getting into great shape when you're out of the league trying to get into the league doesn't mean all that much to me, it reeks of desperation not just trying to get better because he wants to get better(which are the types of players I'd want). I'd personally look at Okafor's current situation as the same as some fringe player on the last year of his contract wanting a big pay day, I'm not saying I'm right about that but that's what it feels like to me.

Maybe Okafor being on the outside looking in has changed his viewpoint on needing to work to be in the NBA and/or maybe he's becoming more mature, both are possible but it's absolutely possible knowing if he works for a year or 2 he can make millions in the NBA vs having to go overseas to try to make some money.

The problem for a team that adds Okafor is keeping him happy offensively, giving him his touches, wasn't Whiteside like this and it seems almost everyone was happy with him being traded even though his advanced stats for the team looked great. Whiteside's ORTG was 112 and 111 the last 2 years and his DRTG was 99 both years, basically playing at least as a +12 per 100 possessions the last 2 years, that's pretty significant.


I wouldnt compare Whiteside to Okafor. Whiteside problem was his attitude, everyone was fine with Whiteside here even with his outbursts throughout the season until it happened in the playoffs vs Philly. That was it for most of Miami fans. Then people started nitpicking his game, but it was really they didnt like him personally any longer. One thing you cant say for Whiteside, is that he didnt workhard. He was always in great shape. His temper tantrums wasnt good for being a leader or lead guy. He pouted during games made him a person you can not count on when things get tough. Got kicked out numerous games, before and after his big contract. He should of been just a complementary player, a PJ Brown for Zo or a Oakley for Ewing type. He was a great fit next to Bosh. The messaging between, Whiteside, Riley and Spo was all kinds of screwed up.

I get the impression Okafor is a good guy to be around. I think you are right, he has that Wiggins or Towns type of personality (even thou I still think its more in the line of Dion). For one thou if he continue to show good productivity, I would look at him. But do not make the mistake of giving him a big contract. Wiggins would be fine with a Dion like contract.
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1412 » by MartyConlonJr » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:17 pm

twix2500 wrote:He was a great fit next to Bosh. The messaging between, Whiteside, Riley and Spo was all kinds of screwed up.


My memory of Bosh-Whiteside was that they were practically unplayable together. Am I wrong?

A quick look at bkref for 15-16 shows they played 728 mins together and were a -0.3 points per 100 possessions. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2016/lineups/
In 14-15 they didn't play enough mins to register on this page:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2015/lineups/
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1413 » by DayofMourning » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:52 pm

MartyConlonJr wrote:
twix2500 wrote:He was a great fit next to Bosh. The messaging between, Whiteside, Riley and Spo was all kinds of screwed up.


My memory of Bosh-Whiteside was that they were practically unplayable together. Am I wrong?

A quick look at bkref for 15-16 shows they played 728 mins together and were a -0.3 points per 100 possessions. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2016/lineups/
In 14-15 they didn't play enough mins to register on this page:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2015/lineups/


I don't think they ever got the appropriate floor time together. Regardless, Hassan became a lot less than what he needed to be for us, so further PT with the unfortunate Bosh likely wouldn't have led to any improvement.

Makes me wonder what Hassan's ideal partner in +/- was while on the Heat...
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1414 » by MartyConlonJr » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:00 pm

DayofMourning wrote:
MartyConlonJr wrote:
twix2500 wrote:He was a great fit next to Bosh. The messaging between, Whiteside, Riley and Spo was all kinds of screwed up.


My memory of Bosh-Whiteside was that they were practically unplayable together. Am I wrong?

A quick look at bkref for 15-16 shows they played 728 mins together and were a -0.3 points per 100 possessions. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2016/lineups/
In 14-15 they didn't play enough mins to register on this page:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2015/lineups/


I don't think they ever got the appropriate floor time together. Regardless, Hassan became a lot less than what he needed to be for us, so further PT with the unfortunate Bosh likely wouldn't have led to any improvement.

Makes me wonder what Hassan's ideal partner in +/- was while on the Heat...


In 15-16, J-Rich (+5.8), Dragic (+3.8), Deng (+2.6) and Winslow (+1.7). In 14-15, none of his two man combinations were a +. D Wade (-0.5) and Chalmers (-0.7) were his best.

It looks like playmakers, small ball 4's and guys that can throw lobs.
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1415 » by MartyConlonJr » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:07 pm

Oh and in 16-17 he was a positive with Dion (+5.1), J-Rich (+4.0), JJ (+3.8), TJ (+3.7) and Babbitt (+3.7) in that order.
In 17-18 he was only a positive with Dragic (+0.8)
In 18-19 it was Winslow (+6.1), J-Rich (+0.6), and JJ (+0.2)
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1416 » by twix2500 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:10 pm

MartyConlonJr wrote:
twix2500 wrote:He was a great fit next to Bosh. The messaging between, Whiteside, Riley and Spo was all kinds of screwed up.


My memory of Bosh-Whiteside was that they were practically unplayable together. Am I wrong?

A quick look at bkref for 15-16 shows they played 728 mins together and were a -0.3 points per 100 possessions. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2016/lineups/
In 14-15 they didn't play enough mins to register on this page:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2015/lineups/


No, the problem was the Heat had non shooters around Wade, Dragic and Bosh. And Bosh was having to resort as the shooter. That is why they went and got Joe Johnson. Teams were cheating off of Deng to double down low when he was at small forward. Dragic was at that time an unwilling shooter. Teams were packing the paint because there was no 3 point threat. Using plus and minus as an individual stat will mislead you. It is one of the often incorrect use of a stat. The best way to use plus/minus stat is as a 5 man lineup.
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1417 » by DayofMourning » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:15 pm

MartyConlonJr wrote:Oh and in 16-17 he was a positive with Dion (+5.1), J-Rich (+4.0), JJ (+3.8), TJ (+3.7) and Babbitt (+3.7) in that order.
In 17-18 he was only a positive with Dragic (+0.8)
In 18-19 it was Winslow (+6.1), J-Rich (+0.6), and JJ (+0.2)


Thanks for the effort in finding those stats.

Had to move Hassan if we were moving Rich. He's the only one keeping him a net positive. :lol:
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1418 » by Feel_the_Heat15 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:31 pm

2018-2019 Usage %:
Wade 27.9
Hassan 22.6
Richardson 20.9

3 high usage players that played lots of minutes gone. Butler's highest usage % for a season was 26.5. If I had to guess, usage will go something like this.

Butler: 28.5%
Dragic: 25%(off the bench)
Winslow: 24%
Waiters: 21%

If Waiters plays well, Herro probably isn't in the rotation. Don't really think it's possible to maximize this team's talent while giving 4 guards(excluding Butler) rotational minutes.
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1419 » by kobewade11 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:01 pm

If Waiters plays well he’s getting traded. Herro will be in the rotation.
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Re: Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK 

Post#1420 » by Beenie » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:38 pm

Heat Twitter buzzing over Jimmy now following Beal.

John Wall apparently just started following a bunch of Heat players.

Chad Johnson also is supposedly having dinner with Beal tonight.

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