ImageImageImage

Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy

Moderators: heat4life, IggieCC, BFRESH44, MettaWorldPanda, Wiltside

twix2500
RealGM
Posts: 16,372
And1: 11,676
Joined: Dec 25, 2003
   

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1281 » by twix2500 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:42 pm

greg4012 wrote:
twix2500 wrote:I wouldn't go after Gobert unless you have a dominant ball handling high level passing point guard. Players like Marion, Martin, Chandler and Jordan value fall off without dominate ball handling passing points. That is why bam's ball handling was and is important to be developed because the Heat do not have that point guard to feed him.

I am still intrigued by the 3 orlando magic bigs. Vucevic, Bamba and Isaac. Not confident they could be had by the Heat. Magic has become similar to the Pistons, a team that is very confusing on their goals or direction. I am specifically intrigue by Isaac next to Bam.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I can’t stop thinking about how freaky Isaac next to Bam could be.

Defensively it’s the foundation of an elite defense with all the flexibility to not be outschemed.

Offensively it’s a perfect pairing with Bam. Isaac can bring what Myers Leonard brings (spacing, 3-ball, screening, size) and also bring what DJJ brings (cutting and transition explosiveness/length) while also having some untapped offensive upside to develop (Probably a better ballhandler than DJJ right now).

Its the perfect pairing of modern versatile bigs that can keep length on the court without any concerns for defensive switching or offensive spacing or mobility.

I’ve always liked Isaac as a prospect/talent. He’s developing in Orlando despite them not having a clear vision or plan for him. With the heat he would definitely make a jump in play.
I would probably give up a bigger penny than most for Isaac.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
greg4012
Starter
Posts: 2,321
And1: 2,440
Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1282 » by greg4012 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:28 pm

twix2500 wrote:I would probably give up a bigger penny than most for Isaac.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I'm with you. The reality is that is what it'll likely take to be able to pry him away from Orlando. He's scheduled to be a RFA in 2021, so we'd have to offer something that Orlando would be unwilling to match. Def risky. But as much as I see upside with Isaac, I see even more upside in the pairing of Isaac and Bam. It's a synergistic explosion IMO.
User avatar
BenoUdrihFTL
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,960
And1: 8,006
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Location: Wish.com customer support
 

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1283 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:39 pm

twix2500 wrote:
BenoUdrihFTL wrote:
twix2500 wrote:I wouldn't go after Gobert unless you have a dominant ball handling high level passing point guard. Players like Marion, Martin, Chandler and Jordan value fall off without dominate ball handling passing points. That is why bam's ball handling was and is important to be developed because the Heat do not have that point guard to feed him.

I am still intrigued by the 3 orlando magic bigs. Vucevic, Bamba and Isaac. Not confident they could be had by the Heat. Magic has become similar to the Pistons, a team that is very confusing on their goals or direction. I am specifically intrigue by Isaac next to Bam.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

UTA has had no such PG this season yet they're still the 8th ranked offense (+2.6 rORTG) and Gobert is still putting up insane individual #s:

Spoiler:
Gobert: 130 ORtg, .700 TS%, 6.0 OWS, 1.8 OBPM (compare these #s to Bam for a point of reference)

UTA's PG situation has been a disaster after ditching Rubio for a severely under-performing 32yo Mike Conley who's already missed 23/64 games, forcing the Jazz to lean heavily on non-PGs Ingles and Mitchell to run their offense

'20 Jazz top 5 AST% (at least 20 mpg):
Ingles 24.0
Conley 22.8
Mitchell 21.2
O'Neal 11.5
Clarkson 10.5

'20 Heat top 5 AST% (at least 20 mpg):
Dragic 28.6
Butler 28.1
Bam 23.6
Nunn 18.7
Herro 11.1

And our guys are doing this without the rim-running auto-bucket monster in question. How many times have we been frustrated seeing Jimmy successfully break down the perimeter D only to stall out in the paint and resort to kicking it back out for reset, because he either can't finish himself amongst the trees or he can't find anyone to get it to inside? Now imagine the 9'7" standing reach, 7'9" wingspan, athletic and mobile Rudy Gobert diving to the rim offball from Jimmy


The Jazz do have a dominate ball handler, he is their star player Donavon Mitchell. They went after a second ball handler in Mike Conley so they could get more out of Gobert offensively than just 15 pts and allow Mitchell focus more as a scorer as well. I am not saying Gobert is not a good player. I get why you would want him, but players like Rodman, Big Ben, Chandler, Jordan, Martin, Marion I had all the exact same arguments and the same defense as what you are giving me on Gobert. Jimmy is handling a lot of the distrubuting and ball handling, but he should not be. He needs another ball handler to make him more effective scorer. If Gobert was playing with Steve Nash or Chris Paul, he would average close to 20 pts a game and be a an elite duo like Blake and Paul. I get it you want all the bets talent as possible, but you do have to be careful and not lock yourself in big contracts that really do not match and not many glue peices in the league to make the unique situation work. We seen how elite talents like James and Wade struggle until they found the right role players and remodeling Bosh game. Gorbert and Butler or not on the level of James and Wade and their games do not complement well and then you add Bam into that mix and are we expecting Bam to change his game like Bosh did. Gobert, Gam and Butler would like be a similar tough mix like Butler, Wade and Rondo. One of the three will have to be versatile enough to adjust.

Ok but you specifically said Gobert needs "a dominant ball handling high level passing point guard"

Donovan is indeed a ball-dominant (and inefficient shoot-first) player but he's not a PG. If he was, he wouldn't be slotted at SG at 6'1" since day 1 and the Jazz wouldn't have taken on Conley's absurd contract to play point. They didn't add Conley to inflate Gobert's ppg, they needed what they thought was a positional upgrade in Conley to replace Rubio in the SL because Mitchell isn't remotely close to being the high-level passer you described

Also, Ingles is UTA's intended secondary ball-handler/facilitator whenever they've had a PG but he's ended up being the lead guy this season due to UTA's tumultuous PG situation

Already posted AST%s (showing MIA > UTA) so here's assist/turnover ratios (and APG) for perimeter ball-handlers:

Jazz
Ingles 2.67 (5.2)
Conley 2.34 (4.3)
Mitchel 1.58 (4.2)

Heat
Jimmy 2.81 (6.1)
Nunn 2.08 (3.4)
Dragic 2.05 (5.1)

Again, our guys were doing it without the automatic bucket dimension that Gobert brings as a 70% true shooting rim-runner. We also have a playmaking big in Bam who's recorded more assists this season than anyone on the Jazz roster

Simply put, we have superior ball-handler/facilitator personnel than UTA, both in terms of volume and efficiency and even depth. We wouldn't be asking Gobert to score 20 ppg nor would we need it, that's not the point, the point of an elite rim-runner is to force defenses to account for his gravity inside thereby opening things up everywhere else. The assertion that Gobert is an offensive liability is unsubstantiated by both his individual #s and his team's performance (despite the mess at PG)
1.61803398874989484820458683436563811772030917980576286
2135448622705260462818902449707207
204189391137484754088
0753868917521
26633862
22353
693
User avatar
HerroBalls
Veteran
Posts: 2,876
And1: 6,025
Joined: Jul 02, 2015
       

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1284 » by HerroBalls » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:42 pm

South Florida numbers are spiking like crazy and I come to see my friends are talking about Rudy Gilbert (I typed Gobert and my phone autocorrected so it will forever be Gilbert)?! Gilbert?! Mr. Hide your Microphones?!

If we’re gonna go after someone, gimme KAT to go with Bam.

Edit I see KAT signed a long deal, but MINNY is bound to blow it up soon
Read on Twitter

Wiltside wrote:Can confirm Tyler Herro is, indeed, a bucket.

Chalm Downs wrote:Me too cute
User avatar
BenoUdrihFTL
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,960
And1: 8,006
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Location: Wish.com customer support
 

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1285 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:43 pm

And the premise of this discussion is that there isn't a perfectly ideal scenario if we strike out on Giannis. But of the remaining options in BPA territory, 2021 UFA Gobert is the guy that conceivably wouldn't require significant team assets outside of cap space that we need to capitalize on anyways. Conversely, he would be an investment in enhancing our current assets to maximize their value on this team
1.61803398874989484820458683436563811772030917980576286
2135448622705260462818902449707207
204189391137484754088
0753868917521
26633862
22353
693
User avatar
DayofMourning
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 19,941
And1: 50,213
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
       

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1286 » by DayofMourning » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:22 pm

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:And the premise of this discussion is that there isn't a perfectly ideal scenario if we strike out on Giannis. But of the remaining options in BPA territory, 2021 UFA Gobert is the guy that conceivably wouldn't require significant team assets outside of cap space that we need to capitalize on anyways. Conversely, he would be an investment in enhancing our current assets to maximize their value on this team


There's certainly no expectations that offseason. You take the best you can get to improve your team and go from there. If its Gobert, I ain't crying. Dude makes teams better. By a lot.

As for Isaac, what is it going to cost to pry him away from the Magic? He's a RFA that offseason, and based on his production, he's nowhere near a big contract.
Image

Your 2020 Dunk Contest Champion-Derrick Jones Jr!
User avatar
DayofMourning
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 19,941
And1: 50,213
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
       

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1287 » by DayofMourning » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:15 am

With Orlando and Sacramento being fairly dysfunctional, could we nab both Isaac and Fox as RFAs? Who knows what is going on with Orlando and the lack of real success with their draft picks recently. Most guys who go there seem to stagnate a bit. Sacramento didn't want to go big on Buddy. Maybe they won't on Fox either.
Image

Your 2020 Dunk Contest Champion-Derrick Jones Jr!
User avatar
puppa bear
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,152
And1: 2,525
Joined: Jan 06, 2006
Location: Perth, Australia
   

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1288 » by puppa bear » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:35 am

DayofMourning wrote:With Orlando and Sacramento being fairly dysfunctional, could we nab both Isaac and Fox as RFAs? Who knows what is going on with Orlando and the lack of real success with their draft picks recently. Most guys who go there seem to stagnate a bit. Sacramento didn't want to go big on Buddy. Maybe they won't on Fox either.

Do we have enough cap space to throw two 25% max deals down on the table? If we can sign them, then Bam, we’d have a good young core controlled for a long time
User avatar
DayofMourning
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 19,941
And1: 50,213
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
       

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1289 » by DayofMourning » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:54 am

puppa bear wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:With Orlando and Sacramento being fairly dysfunctional, could we nab both Isaac and Fox as RFAs? Who knows what is going on with Orlando and the lack of real success with their draft picks recently. Most guys who go there seem to stagnate a bit. Sacramento didn't want to go big on Buddy. Maybe they won't on Fox either.

Do we have enough cap space to throw two 25% max deals down on the table? If we can sign them, then Bam, we’d have a good young core controlled for a long time


I doubt it. I haven't looked at our numbers in a while. I'd expect Isaac would get a lesser contract, while Fox would be a max guy. How much less for Isaac? Hard to say. He's got a heckuva tool box. He's also a very impressive defender. He and Bam would be something else as a combo. I think he's attainable, and Fox not so much. Guys are getting antsy about that first big contract, and for legit reasons. That's a ton of money to pass up. I think they were talking about them getting the contract extension after this season. Would be hard to see any of those guys passing up max money. It'd be kinda insane to do so.

I'm rusty on free agency, when could we offer a contract to either of those guys? Not this offseason, but next, correct?
Image

Your 2020 Dunk Contest Champion-Derrick Jones Jr!
User avatar
BenoUdrihFTL
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,960
And1: 8,006
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Location: Wish.com customer support
 

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1290 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:11 pm

I'd love Isaac, I just expect it to take significant assets to acquire him via trade. He's essentially ORL's primary young building block of the future so they won't be willing to just let him walk. I can't even think of the last time a team didn't choose to retain their highly regarded RFA on a rookie scale contract
1.61803398874989484820458683436563811772030917980576286
2135448622705260462818902449707207
204189391137484754088
0753868917521
26633862
22353
693
ThaFranchize84
Junior
Posts: 266
And1: 67
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
     

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1291 » by ThaFranchize84 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:07 am

I know everyone is talking about Issac but what about Gordon for Nunn and Olynk? I think Miami can really take Gordon to the next level. His contract does run into 2021 but is is descending at around $16 million. That could potentially still leave us with enough cap space to add a max F/A. A Bam and Gordon front court could be super athletic and could complement each other pretty well. If we could add someone like Oladipo or Holiday in 2021 that could a really balanced young and vet roster that is a contender. I think Miami can turn Gordon into what Blake Griffin was last year prior to getting injured.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
greg4012
Starter
Posts: 2,321
And1: 2,440
Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1292 » by greg4012 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:26 am

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:I'd love Isaac, I just expect it to take significant assets to acquire him via trade. He's essentially ORL's primary young building block of the future so they won't be willing to just let him walk. I can't even think of the last time a team didn't choose to retain their highly regarded RFA on a rookie scale contract


The way to acquire Isaac is to aim to sign him as a RFA next summer. Offer close to (or at) max and make them match if they want to keep him.

It could be perceived as an overpay for what he's produced so far. Which is why it might work. But, IMO, what the Heat would do with him would make that contract worth it for the entire length of the deal.

Obviously, the struggle is that if Orlando chooses to match, we can't do anything about it. But, IMO it's one of the more interesting options aside from speaking on the Giannis pipedream
User avatar
HerroBalls
Veteran
Posts: 2,876
And1: 6,025
Joined: Jul 02, 2015
       

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1293 » by HerroBalls » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:32 am

Damn yall talking about

Fox
Herro
Jimmy
Isaac
Bam

Bang Bros might really need to buy the naming rights to the AAA




Read on Twitter

Wiltside wrote:Can confirm Tyler Herro is, indeed, a bucket.

Chalm Downs wrote:Me too cute
User avatar
dean456
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,346
And1: 2,115
Joined: Jul 04, 2017
 

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1294 » by dean456 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:49 am

If we have our money wrapped up with a restricted free agent offer aren't we stuck from making other moves until the Magic match the salary or not? Meaning we would miss out on Giannis or any other UFA in 2021 if we offered Isaac money?
twix2500
RealGM
Posts: 16,372
And1: 11,676
Joined: Dec 25, 2003
   

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1295 » by twix2500 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:57 pm

al bondiga
Junior
Posts: 423
And1: 569
Joined: Oct 18, 2018

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1296 » by al bondiga » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:01 pm

Would getting oladipo and Giannis mean getting rid of Butler??? If it is that way, I'd rather have Butler playing with Giannis then Oladipo playing with G
User avatar
DayofMourning
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 19,941
And1: 50,213
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
       

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1297 » by DayofMourning » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:35 pm

If by Yanis and Oladipo they mean Yanis and De'Aaron Fox, then I'm down.
Image

Your 2020 Dunk Contest Champion-Derrick Jones Jr!
twix2500
RealGM
Posts: 16,372
And1: 11,676
Joined: Dec 25, 2003
   

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1298 » by twix2500 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:19 pm

al bondiga wrote:Would getting oladipo and Giannis mean getting rid of Butler??? If it is that way, I'd rather have Butler playing with Giannis then Oladipo playing with G


No, Butler is a building block along with Bam. However If it took Bam to get Giannis or a top five player, then the Heat would move him. As of right now, its Bam and Butler as one of the big 3 centerpeices. Everyone else are pawns if needed.

The more I think about it, if the Heat would pull Oladipo it would not be as a max player.
User avatar
DayofMourning
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 19,941
And1: 50,213
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
       

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1299 » by DayofMourning » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:51 pm

So Bam has to wait for 2021, and not want to sign an extension sooner. With all this craziness going on, it's really a guessing game as to what the fantastic class of 2017 will want to do. Get security ASAP, or wait and let the team have more signing power in free agency for team building.

Our cap table, again, for reference:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/miami-heat/cap/2021/
Image

Your 2020 Dunk Contest Champion-Derrick Jones Jr!
User avatar
DayofMourning
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 19,941
And1: 50,213
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
       

Re: Miami Heat Regular Season Thread Vol. Iggy 

Post#1300 » by DayofMourning » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:05 pm

Looks like we'll have approximately 65 million in salaries if we renounce everyone outside of Butler, Herro, Okpala, Adebayo, Nunn, Robinson and our draft pick this year.

Max cap for 2021 as listed on spotrac is 125 million, meaning we have approximately 60 million to work with that offseason. Giannis would get something like 40 million of that.

Would Oladipo be willing to take 20 million a year to start? He's had an up and down career. Maybe Indy doesn't feel like paying to keep him. Maybe he stays injured. His situation is pretty fragile. Maybe he takes less money and is the best we can get.

I mean, who else stands out from this list:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2021/

Oubre...?
Image

Your 2020 Dunk Contest Champion-Derrick Jones Jr!

Return to Miami Heat