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Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage

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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#61 » by HeatFanLifer » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:04 am

dean456 wrote:To be honest Olynyk and Leonard aren't doing any better than Crowder was at keeping their bigs out of the paint. At least Crowder fights for position down low. Way too often Leonard waits until the ball hits the rims to start putting a body on the opposing teams bigs. They easily get prime position down low almost every possession.


All those Coors lights are taking their toll. Dude is getting paid 8 figures and he can’t even keep his head in the game.
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#62 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:45 pm

Wiltside wrote:If Spo starts doing nonsensical chit like playing Crowder at the 5, I'm gonna smash my TV.

We have perfectly viable options...Bam, Meyers, KO...chit, even Silva in small spurts when he has 'it' (or yank him after a couple minutes if it's clear he's gone full JoEL mode). Absolutely no reason to do things like DJJ or Jae at the 5. None.

Gonna be interesting to see who is in and out of form during this whole thing. Can't rely on the 'tried and true' rotations, Spo is gonna have to get creative...and being creative on the fly has never been his strong suit (OK I'll pay playing Bosh at the 5).

Would probably prefer to run with:

Butler / Dragic
Herro / Nunn
Robinson / Crowder / Igoudala
Adebayo / Jones Jr
Leonard / Olynyk

Actually, looking at that, someone is going to be unhappy. We can't go 11 deep and expect to have continuity. Spo has to be ruthless enough to bench guys if they don't have it that night. Mainly Herro or Nunn as they're more likely to be 'hot and cold' than the others.

Our center rotation absolutely sucks and is clearly the weakest link of this team by far

#Gobert2021
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#63 » by DayofMourning » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:05 pm

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:
Wiltside wrote:If Spo starts doing nonsensical chit like playing Crowder at the 5, I'm gonna smash my TV.

We have perfectly viable options...Bam, Meyers, KO...chit, even Silva in small spurts when he has 'it' (or yank him after a couple minutes if it's clear he's gone full JoEL mode). Absolutely no reason to do things like DJJ or Jae at the 5. None.

Gonna be interesting to see who is in and out of form during this whole thing. Can't rely on the 'tried and true' rotations, Spo is gonna have to get creative...and being creative on the fly has never been his strong suit (OK I'll pay playing Bosh at the 5).

Would probably prefer to run with:

Butler / Dragic
Herro / Nunn
Robinson / Crowder / Igoudala
Adebayo / Jones Jr
Leonard / Olynyk

Actually, looking at that, someone is going to be unhappy. We can't go 11 deep and expect to have continuity. Spo has to be ruthless enough to bench guys if they don't have it that night. Mainly Herro or Nunn as they're more likely to be 'hot and cold' than the others.

Our center rotation absolutely sucks and is clearly the weakest link of this team by far

#Gobert2021


I didn't watch the game, and based on the comments, I'm glad I didn't.

We really need someone to anchor down low for us. A threat to really alter some shots, box out, and rebound. We are really a good team despite the gaping hole at center. If we could fix that, then we'd be so much better.

What are our options, THIS offseason?

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/

From looking at that list, I think the following players make sense:

Anthony Davis (obviously)
Serge Ibaka
Derrick Favors
Mason Plumlee
Alex Len
Dwight Howard
Tyson Chandler
Nerlens Noel

We've got plenty of space for a big one year deal, if we can't lure Davis, and want to theoretically "front load" a potential longer contract moving forward.

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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#64 » by greg4012 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:37 pm

HeatFanLifer wrote:
MadD23 wrote:I am not a fan of Spo's coaching during games. But at this point it's a total exaggeration to be criticizing a coach during scrimmages that are design to experiment and try different things. The real games begin on Saturday.


It was the final game of the preseason before
a short 8 game regular season. The time for experimenting is over. Time to get things locked in.


This is not a 8-game regular season. It's 8 final games to conclude a 73-game regular season. We are pretty much locked in to a 4-5 matchup. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more experimenting and tweaking during these last 8 games. The focus is on getting in optimal form for the playoffs.
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#65 » by greg4012 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:43 pm

DayofMourning wrote:
BenoUdrihFTL wrote:
Wiltside wrote:If Spo starts doing nonsensical chit like playing Crowder at the 5, I'm gonna smash my TV.

We have perfectly viable options...Bam, Meyers, KO...chit, even Silva in small spurts when he has 'it' (or yank him after a couple minutes if it's clear he's gone full JoEL mode). Absolutely no reason to do things like DJJ or Jae at the 5. None.

Gonna be interesting to see who is in and out of form during this whole thing. Can't rely on the 'tried and true' rotations, Spo is gonna have to get creative...and being creative on the fly has never been his strong suit (OK I'll pay playing Bosh at the 5).

Would probably prefer to run with:

Butler / Dragic
Herro / Nunn
Robinson / Crowder / Igoudala
Adebayo / Jones Jr
Leonard / Olynyk

Actually, looking at that, someone is going to be unhappy. We can't go 11 deep and expect to have continuity. Spo has to be ruthless enough to bench guys if they don't have it that night. Mainly Herro or Nunn as they're more likely to be 'hot and cold' than the others.

Our center rotation absolutely sucks and is clearly the weakest link of this team by far

#Gobert2021


I didn't watch the game, and based on the comments, I'm glad I didn't.

We really need someone to anchor down low for us. A threat to really alter some shots, box out, and rebound. We are really a good team despite the gaping hole at center. If we could fix that, then we'd be so much better.

What are our options, THIS offseason?

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/

From looking at that list, I think the following players make sense:

Anthony Davis (obviously)
Serge Ibaka
Derrick Favors
Mason Plumlee
Alex Len
Dwight Howard
Tyson Chandler
Nerlens Noel

We've got plenty of space for a big one year deal, if we can't lure Davis, and want to theoretically "front load" a potential longer contract moving forward.

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The answer to your question (aside from the ideal scenario/pipe dream of Anthony Davis) is Christian Wood. He's inconsistent on the defensive side, but has rim protection chops and I'm confident we would do more to make him a smart defender. Plus he's a legit high upside offensive complement to Bam
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#66 » by DayofMourning » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:17 pm

greg4012 wrote:The answer to your question (aside from the ideal scenario/pipe dream of Anthony Davis) is Christian Wood. He's inconsistent on the defensive side, but has rim protection chops and I'm confident we would do more to make him a smart defender. Plus he's a legit high upside offensive complement to Bam


I've been intrigued by Wood in the past. He seems to be able to produce at a pretty high level. However, being on five teams in five years raises legitimate concerns. I'm not sure what he's done, or hasn't done to bounce around so much. His per 36 are routinely good.

What is he going to get paid this coming season? What's your estimate?
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#67 » by greg4012 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:56 pm

DayofMourning wrote:
I've been intrigued by Wood in the past. He seems to be able to produce at a pretty high level. However, being on five teams in five years raises legitimate concerns. I'm not sure what he's done, or hasn't done to bounce around so much. His per 36 are routinely good.

What is he going to get paid this coming season? What's your estimate?


Def concerns to be vetted out. It comes down to if the organization can reasonably believe that his issues are overblown and that he is someone ready to buy into a program and be developed. Investment in him can go one of two ways IMO: (1) troublemaker gets comfortable after securing the bag and goes back to his old antics (see Whiteside) or (2) he's encouraged by an organization finally committing to him and believing in him and his immense talent is maximized.

I have NO IDEA on these issues or how this will go. I'm confident the Heat org can do a better job of vetting this than I can. So, TBD.

But, damn he is talented and IMO his specific skillset can be even more valuable due to how perfectly he can fit next to Bam (see the Synergy with Brook Lopez next to Giannis).

High efficiency offense that is not tied to high usage and thus can scale up with an increased role without having to draw up plays for him. Legitimate shooting ability as a floor spacer. Great finisher around the rim. Great in the pick and roll.

Best suited as an in-the-paint defender with flashes of real rim protection ability but also can survive on switches on the perimeter in a pinch. His knock on defense seems to largely be getting lost in scheme at times. But, I feel some of that might be attributed to never having any continuity. He's got the tools to be a plus defender and allow Bam to be in the versatile defensive role he thrives in.

Once Drummond was traded Wood averaged 23 and 10 on 65% TS in 10 games starting for detroit.

Opponent FG% of 56.9% around the rim with Wood nearby (average for a center--improvement compared to the guys we've paired Bam with).

Opponents scoring .92 points per possession when Wood is defender the screener in pick and rolls (85th percentile)

Detroit was +11 points per 100 possessions better with Wood on the court (+8 on offense and +3 on defense)

Offensive RAPM: +1.64 (elite)
Defensive RAPM: +0.45 (good)
Offensive RAPTOR: +1.9 (excellent)
Defensive RAPTOR: +2.6 (excellent)
Offensive PIPM: +2.17 (excellent)
Defensive PIPM: +0.81 (good)

From what I've read, his market might trend towards around $15M per year. Might be a tough pill to swallow because of his concerns, but solely from a fit and potential perspective I see it as a potential foundational addition next to Bam. Definitely in a different ball park from all the other potential big man additions mentioned aside from AD.

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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#68 » by DayofMourning » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:27 pm

Fifteen million per is not going to happen with us. Once again, we could offer a one year above market contract, and then offer a multi year for much less, but that's increasingly difficult to do and avoid potential tampering issues. I believe it was the Wolves and Joe Smith who set the precedent for that type of thing, and the punishment for trying it...

Riley will talk to Davis, there are some Kentucky ties, and we have reportedly been interested (who wouldn't be?) in the past when he was being made available.

If that doesn't get done, then maybe a big one year contract to a guy like Ibaka fills a need.

Much less sexy is a guy like Tyson Chandler. He'd fit the bill though.

Another won't happen, but would be interesting scenario is Nerlens. Fits the defensive anchor requirement well, but hasn't gotten paid yet (his agent's fault) and will want some money in the bank. More than we can afford.

Lastly, is the prospect of a draft pick coming in and filling that role. He wouldn't contribute much next year though, if at all.
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#69 » by greg4012 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:33 pm

DayofMourning wrote:Fifteen million per is not going to happen with us. Once again, we could offer a one year above market contract, and then offer a multi year for much less, but that's increasingly difficult to do and avoid potential tampering issues. I believe it was the Wolves and Joe Smith who set the precedent for that type of thing, and the punishment for trying it...

Riley will talk to Davis, there are some Kentucky ties, and we have reportedly been interested (who wouldn't be?) in the past when he was being made available.

If that doesn't get done, then maybe a big one year contract to a guy like Ibaka fills a need.

Much less sexy is a guy like Tyson Chandler. He'd fit the bill though.

Another won't happen, but would be interesting scenario is Nerlens. Fits the defensive anchor requirement well, but hasn't gotten paid yet (his agent's fault) and will want some money in the bank. More than we can afford.

Lastly, is the prospect of a draft pick coming in and filling that role. He wouldn't contribute much next year though, if at all.


I don't understand how a 38-year old Tyson Chandler who has played 200 minutes in the past year and has never made a 3 fits any sort of bill. Spacing is imperative in fit next to Bam. This need for a big man next to him is WAY overblown if it compromises our entire offensive scheme by setting up an ineffective road block in the paint.

I'm not opposed to committing some longer term cap this offseason for the right price. OVercommitting to the 2021 dream at the cost of real quality longterm improvement is a mistake. We can spend less than max this offseason and still work out a max slot for 2021. That's A LOT of improvement
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#70 » by DayofMourning » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:17 pm

greg4012 wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:Fifteen million per is not going to happen with us. Once again, we could offer a one year above market contract, and then offer a multi year for much less, but that's increasingly difficult to do and avoid potential tampering issues. I believe it was the Wolves and Joe Smith who set the precedent for that type of thing, and the punishment for trying it...

Riley will talk to Davis, there are some Kentucky ties, and we have reportedly been interested (who wouldn't be?) in the past when he was being made available.

If that doesn't get done, then maybe a big one year contract to a guy like Ibaka fills a need.

Much less sexy is a guy like Tyson Chandler. He'd fit the bill though.

Another won't happen, but would be interesting scenario is Nerlens. Fits the defensive anchor requirement well, but hasn't gotten paid yet (his agent's fault) and will want some money in the bank. More than we can afford.

Lastly, is the prospect of a draft pick coming in and filling that role. He wouldn't contribute much next year though, if at all.


I don't understand how a 38-year old Tyson Chandler who has played 200 minutes in the past year and has never made a 3 fits any sort of bill. Spacing is imperative in fit next to Bam. This need for a big man next to him is WAY overblown if it compromises our entire offensive scheme by setting up an ineffective road block in the paint.

I'm not opposed to committing some longer term cap this offseason for the right price. OVercommitting to the 2021 dream at the cost of real quality longterm improvement is a mistake. We can spend less than max this offseason and still work out a max slot for 2021. That's A LOT of improvement


I'm not as infatuated with the three as some. If you have no rebounding, or interior defense, to the point of basically conceding points in the paint 2 out of 3 times, then you need to improve. Every single player on this team doesn't need to be a three point threat. That's nonsensical.

As for Chandler, he can be brought in at a low contract, give us some minutes to defend and board when we have no one else on the roster who can do it well besides Bam (who is overworked). Tyson has been a plus offensively in his career as well. It's not like he's dragging a team down. He's excellent at rim running and is an easy lob target.

As for 2021, you might not be opposed to handing out 15 million to Christian Woods, but is Riley and Co. going to?
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#71 » by greg4012 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:34 pm

DayofMourning wrote:
greg4012 wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:Fifteen million per is not going to happen with us. Once again, we could offer a one year above market contract, and then offer a multi year for much less, but that's increasingly difficult to do and avoid potential tampering issues. I believe it was the Wolves and Joe Smith who set the precedent for that type of thing, and the punishment for trying it...

Riley will talk to Davis, there are some Kentucky ties, and we have reportedly been interested (who wouldn't be?) in the past when he was being made available.

If that doesn't get done, then maybe a big one year contract to a guy like Ibaka fills a need.

Much less sexy is a guy like Tyson Chandler. He'd fit the bill though.

Another won't happen, but would be interesting scenario is Nerlens. Fits the defensive anchor requirement well, but hasn't gotten paid yet (his agent's fault) and will want some money in the bank. More than we can afford.

Lastly, is the prospect of a draft pick coming in and filling that role. He wouldn't contribute much next year though, if at all.


I don't understand how a 38-year old Tyson Chandler who has played 200 minutes in the past year and has never made a 3 fits any sort of bill. Spacing is imperative in fit next to Bam. This need for a big man next to him is WAY overblown if it compromises our entire offensive scheme by setting up an ineffective road block in the paint.

I'm not opposed to committing some longer term cap this offseason for the right price. OVercommitting to the 2021 dream at the cost of real quality longterm improvement is a mistake. We can spend less than max this offseason and still work out a max slot for 2021. That's A LOT of improvement


I'm not as infatuated with the three as some. If you have no rebounding, or interior defense, to the point of basically conceding points in the paint 2 out of 3 times, then you need to improve. Every single player on this team doesn't need to be a three point threat. That's nonsensical.

As for Chandler, he can be brought in at a low contract, give us some minutes to defend and board when we have no one else on the roster who can do it well besides Bam (who is overworked). Tyson has been a plus offensively in his career as well. It's not like he's dragging a team down. He's excellent at rim running and is an easy lob target.

As for 2021, you might not be opposed to handing out 15 million to Christian Woods, but is Riley and Co. going to?


You're fixated on one thing without assessing how it'll affect the whole. A paint clogging center will undeniably make our offense worse on a possession by possesion basis. Even moreso if the paint clogger doesn't contribute anything of plus value on the offensive end.

Every single player doesn't need to be a 3-point threat. But to succeed in the modern NBA it's pretty much law that having more than 2 players on the court at once that aren't a 3-point threat is grave disadvantage and makes for abysmal spacing that chokes the offense. That's not even accounting for what efficiency metrics say about 3PA compared to 2PA
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#72 » by dean456 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:16 pm

Davis is the dream but I doubt he's going anywhere. Ibaka would easily be the best option for us. He'd be a huge upgrade over Leonard to our starting lineup. I imagine Toronto also offering him a one year deal because they too are trying to save their cap room for 2021, maybe we can lure him away with a starting role and more significant minutes due to our weak Center depth.

If we can get away with offering Crowder and Dragic around $10mil starting salaries we could then offer Ibaka something like a $22.6mil one year deal then also retain someone like DJJr over the cap.

2020
Nunn/Dragic
Butler/Herro
Robinson/DJJr/Iggy
Bam/Crowder/Okpala
Ibaka/Silva/2020 pick
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#73 » by dean456 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:35 pm

greg4012 wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:
greg4012 wrote:
I don't understand how a 38-year old Tyson Chandler who has played 200 minutes in the past year and has never made a 3 fits any sort of bill. Spacing is imperative in fit next to Bam. This need for a big man next to him is WAY overblown if it compromises our entire offensive scheme by setting up an ineffective road block in the paint.

I'm not opposed to committing some longer term cap this offseason for the right price. OVercommitting to the 2021 dream at the cost of real quality longterm improvement is a mistake. We can spend less than max this offseason and still work out a max slot for 2021. That's A LOT of improvement


I'm not as infatuated with the three as some. If you have no rebounding, or interior defense, to the point of basically conceding points in the paint 2 out of 3 times, then you need to improve. Every single player on this team doesn't need to be a three point threat. That's nonsensical.

As for Chandler, he can be brought in at a low contract, give us some minutes to defend and board when we have no one else on the roster who can do it well besides Bam (who is overworked). Tyson has been a plus offensively in his career as well. It's not like he's dragging a team down. He's excellent at rim running and is an easy lob target.

As for 2021, you might not be opposed to handing out 15 million to Christian Woods, but is Riley and Co. going to?


You're fixated on one thing without assessing how it'll affect the whole. A paint clogging center will undeniably make our offense worse on a possession by possesion basis. Even moreso if the paint clogger doesn't contribute anything of plus value on the offensive end.

Every single player doesn't need to be a 3-point threat. But to succeed in the modern NBA it's pretty much law that having more than 2 players on the court at once that aren't a 3-point threat is grave disadvantage and makes for abysmal spacing that chokes the offense. That's not even accounting for what efficiency metrics say about 3PA compared to 2PA


Yeah we definitely need someone who can shoot the ball playing next to Bam. Until Bam starts producing long range jump shots at a decent clip we cant add someone who will clog the paint. If they can shoot then that pulls the opposing center closer to the corner which allows Jimmy and Bam easier buckets.

The Bam/Robinson dribble hand off is so successful for us because when Bam sets the screen and Robinson shakes free of his defender the opposing C/PF has to make a decision either step up to stop Robinson from shooting or sag off to prevent Bam from getting an easy lob or pass for a dunk. If Chandler is sitting in the dunker spot because he cant shoot that will mean there will always be a defender in the paint waiting to help on Bam's roll which will allow Bam's defender to close out on Robinson and be able to recover.

Chandler causes more problems than he solves.
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Re: Tues 7/28 2 PM EST Mem vs MIA Bubble Scrimage 

Post#74 » by al bondiga » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:45 pm

Right now it is obvious that we have to choose... either a center with good qualifications and basketball skills or a center that is average and has great chemistry with the players, a third choice would be somebody young and big that we can develop

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