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Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo.

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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#21 » by SA37 » Sat Feb 6, 2021 12:38 pm

It's Kendrick Nunn's world and we're all just living in it...
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#22 » by abark » Sat Feb 6, 2021 1:50 pm

Grumpy Heat Fan wrote:
abark wrote:But if you are comparing Herro and Nunn as far as long term value, I hope you are considering that Nunn is 4 and a half years older. They were both rookies last year, but Nunn is practically in his prime age-wise (not implying he can't get better). Herro couldn't legally drink until just over 2 weeks ago.


Herro is what he is. He is an inefficient scorer with a career 43% FG, and that will NEVER change. I promise you. He isn't great at defense, and does not have active hands. He isn't great at being a facilitator either. What I see in Herro is a career rotation bench player, who might get starter play on a bad team.


Great players are great as soon as they step on the court. They don't need 5 years to develop.

If they are being given lots of minutes, and they haven't shown you what they got by 2 years in, then you've already seen what they are.


Players can improve, but think back and try to remember any player who legit made a huge leap and became something they never showed before?


Herro is a bench player. That's what he is.

Herro was more efficient than Nunn was last year.

I don't like using FG% bc I think it is an outdated stat but it's the only way I could compare Nunn's difference in efficiency last year before and after injury.

But Herro is a shooter. I get his 3 point shot has not been falling this year but he was at 39% last year at high volume. Gauging the efficiency of a player like that using FG% is archaic. Steph Curry has a 47% career FG% and is the most efficient scorer ever (not comparing Herro to Curry to be very clear. That is just an example of why not to use FG%).

Herro was at 55% TS his rookie year which was only 1 percent below league average. That is good for a 19/20 year old rookie. He's shooting the same this year, but again his 3 point shot was completely off to start the year.

Nunn is at 56%TS this year.

So why exactly is Herro doomed to be an inefficient scorer if his TS% (which is the best measure of scoring efficiency) is only 1 percent less than the guy you are portraying to be significantly more efficient.

A guy who is again, 4 and a half years older


I really do like Nunn, but I feel like you are comparing guys that you think are at the same stage of their development when they are very much not. Young players get better. If a 19/20 yr old Herro was 1 percent below league average efficiency, there is absolutely no reason to think he will be even close to inefficient in his prime. That is just your opinion.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#23 » by abark » Sat Feb 6, 2021 2:37 pm

Grumpy Heat Fan wrote:
abark wrote:Great players are great as soon as they step on the court. They don't need 5 years to develop.

If they are being given lots of minutes, and they haven't shown you what they got by 2 years in, then you've already seen what they are.


Players can improve, but think back and try to remember any player who legit made a huge leap and became something they never showed before?

Umm... I never said Herro would be a star but this should be very easy to list

You're claim is so ridiculous though. Herro is scoring the same amount of points and is significantly more efficient than both Oladipo and Beal were in their 2nd year. Both didn't reach 20 ppg until their 5th year. But players "have shown you what they got by year 2"?

Some more guys that improved DRAMATICALLY after year 2...

Jaylen Brown
Brandon Ingram
Goran Dragic
Domantas Sabonis
Julius Randle
Malcolm Brogdon
Fred Vanvleet
Gordan Hayward
Jerami Grant
Kahwi Leonard
CJ McCollum
Christian Wood
Kemba Walker
Rajon Rondo
Kyle Lowry
Jayson Tatum
Paul George
James Harden
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Steph Curry
Giannis Antetokounmpo


I'm tired, but I'm sure I can very easily think of plenty more

And I wanted to include Bam bc he did improve by every metric from year 2 to year 3, but Whiteside's presence makes him unfair to add. But I stand by the fact that he did significantly improve. Just look at the numbers from the games he started in year 2 (11.8/9.1/3.1 in 28.2 mpg. 28 games).

But that makes 3 players that have made all star teams on our own roster that break your rule. (Edit: I forgot about Iguadala who jumped from 12 to 18 ppg from yr 2 to 3, and made an ASG. So that makes 4)

We have also only seen 15 games of Herro's 2nd year. You seem very quick to put him in a box of what he will or won't be
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#24 » by AirP. » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:59 pm

abark wrote:Umm... I never said Herro would be a star but this should be very easy to list

You're claim is so ridiculous though. Herro is scoring the same amount of points and is significantly more efficient than both Oladipo and Beal were in their 2nd year. Both didn't reach 20 ppg until their 5th year. But players "have shown you what they got by year 2"?

Some more guys that improved DRAMATICALLY after year 2...

Spoiler:
Jaylen Brown
Brandon Ingram
Goran Dragic
Domantas Sabonis
Julius Randle
Malcolm Brogdon
Fred Vanvleet
Gordan Hayward
Jerami Grant
Kahwi Leonard
CJ McCollum
Christian Wood
Kemba Walker
Rajon Rondo
Kyle Lowry
Jayson Tatum
Paul George
James Harden
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Steph Curry
Giannis Antetokounmpo


And I wanted to include Bam bc he did improve by every metric from year 2 to year 3, but Whiteside's presence makes him unfair to add. But I stand by the fact that he did significantly improve. Just look at the numbers from the games he started in year 2 (11.8/9.1/3.1 in 28.2 mpg. 28 games).

But that makes 3 players that have made all star teams on our own roster that break your rule. (Edit: I forgot about Iguadala who jumped from 12 to 18 ppg from yr 2 to 3, and made an ASG. So that makes 4)

We have also only seen 15 games of Herro's 2nd year. You seem very quick to put him in a box of what he will or won't be

I do understand what you're saying and it's true and also these players did get better at their games but there are circumstances with most of those players. Herro has been given every opportunity by Miami to succeed, given a key scoring role early on because the team desperately needed scorers while players on your list had to wait for a bigger role.

Just looking at that list...
- Giannis, Gobert and even Ingram were projects.
- P.George had Granger in front of him
- Lowry had Conley and A.Brooks in front of him on 2 different teams.
- Butler, Chicago had a ton of key injuries that led to him getting offensive opportunities and then working on those opportunities in the offseason to become what he is now.
- Steph had M.Ellis in front of him.
- Rondo was the PG for Pierce, KG and R.Allen.
- Harden was 3rd banana behind KD and Westbrook.
- CJ was drafted on a team with it's backcourt set with Lillard and Matthews(before his injury).
- Tatum and Brown were both on a team that probably had too many scorers which Danny Ainge wouldn't move.
- Randall broke his leg his first game so that slowed up his improvement for years.
- Sabonis was used as a stretch 4 in OKC, you can basically throw away his first few years because of that wrong development and being traded to multiple teams.
- C.Wood's per36s says he's a baller but since nobody wanted to stay with him there has to be more to the story, he's been a PER36 25 ppg scorer for now 3 seasons and he's only 25. Even his ORTG-DRTG is very near Bam level.
- J.Grant, he's been behind better players for most of his career, he had to go to a team that would allow him to be a much higher option on offense.

Although I don't think Nunn will be a better player then Tyler, I don't think they're really all that far apart for what they can do for a team. Herro is looked upon as untouchable while the team has a short window with Butler while Nunn is treated like a 2nd round pick. It's really odd to see that big of a difference between 2 players when they seem to produce about the same, the only real difference is their age.

Herro has potential, but is it top 30 potential? I personally don't think so, especially with him probably being a liability on the defensive end for his position.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#25 » by Hallstar » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:53 pm

AirP. wrote:
abark wrote:Umm... I never said Herro would be a star but this should be very easy to list

You're claim is so ridiculous though. Herro is scoring the same amount of points and is significantly more efficient than both Oladipo and Beal were in their 2nd year. Both didn't reach 20 ppg until their 5th year. But players "have shown you what they got by year 2"?

Some more guys that improved DRAMATICALLY after year 2...

Spoiler:
Jaylen Brown
Brandon Ingram
Goran Dragic
Domantas Sabonis
Julius Randle
Malcolm Brogdon
Fred Vanvleet
Gordan Hayward
Jerami Grant
Kahwi Leonard
CJ McCollum
Christian Wood
Kemba Walker
Rajon Rondo
Kyle Lowry
Jayson Tatum
Paul George
James Harden
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Steph Curry
Giannis Antetokounmpo


And I wanted to include Bam bc he did improve by every metric from year 2 to year 3, but Whiteside's presence makes him unfair to add. But I stand by the fact that he did significantly improve. Just look at the numbers from the games he started in year 2 (11.8/9.1/3.1 in 28.2 mpg. 28 games).

But that makes 3 players that have made all star teams on our own roster that break your rule. (Edit: I forgot about Iguadala who jumped from 12 to 18 ppg from yr 2 to 3, and made an ASG. So that makes 4)

We have also only seen 15 games of Herro's 2nd year. You seem very quick to put him in a box of what he will or won't be

I do understand what you're saying and it's true and also these players did get better at their games but there are circumstances with most of those players. Herro has been given every opportunity by Miami to succeed, given a key scoring role early on because the team desperately needed scorers while players on your list had to wait for a bigger role.

Just looking at that list...
- Giannis, Gobert and even Ingram were projects.
- P.George had Granger in front of him
- Lowry had Conley and A.Brooks in front of him on 2 different teams.
- Butler, Chicago had a ton of key injuries that led to him getting offensive opportunities and then working on those opportunities in the offseason to become what he is now.
- Steph had M.Ellis in front of him.
- Rondo was the PG for Pierce, KG and R.Allen.
- Harden was 3rd banana behind KD and Westbrook.
- CJ was drafted on a team with it's backcourt set with Lillard and Matthews(before his injury).
- Tatum and Brown were both on a team that probably had too many scorers which Danny Ainge wouldn't move.
- Randall broke his leg his first game so that slowed up his improvement for years.
- Sabonis was used as a stretch 4 in OKC, you can basically throw away his first few years because of that wrong development and being traded to multiple teams.
- C.Wood's per36s says he's a baller but since nobody wanted to stay with him there has to be more to the story, he's been a PER36 25 ppg scorer for now 3 seasons and he's only 25. Even his ORTG-DRTG is very near Bam level.
- J.Grant, he's been behind better players for most of his career, he had to go to a team that would allow him to be a much higher option on offense.

Although I don't think Nunn will be a better player then Tyler, I don't think they're really all that far apart for what they can do for a team. Herro is looked upon as untouchable while the team has a short window with Butler while Nunn is treated like a 2nd round pick. It's really odd to see that big of a difference between 2 players when they seem to produce about the same, the only real difference is their age.

Herro has potential, but is it top 30 potential? I personally don't think so, especially with him probably being a liability on the defensive end for his position.

Herro came in to the season being asked to restrain his natural game and be a point guard. To act like dude has a green light when he's behind Jimmy and Bam is crazy. On a truly bad team he's already comfortably over 20ppg and we'd be wondering why we can't have nice things.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#26 » by AirP. » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:19 pm

Hallstar wrote:
Spoiler:
AirP. wrote:I do understand what you're saying and it's true and also these players did get better at their games but there are circumstances with most of those players. Herro has been given every opportunity by Miami to succeed, given a key scoring role early on because the team desperately needed scorers while players on your list had to wait for a bigger role.

Just looking at that list...
- Giannis, Gobert and even Ingram were projects.
- P.George had Granger in front of him
- Lowry had Conley and A.Brooks in front of him on 2 different teams.
- Butler, Chicago had a ton of key injuries that led to him getting offensive opportunities and then working on those opportunities in the offseason to become what he is now.
- Steph had M.Ellis in front of him.
- Rondo was the PG for Pierce, KG and R.Allen.
- Harden was 3rd banana behind KD and Westbrook.
- CJ was drafted on a team with it's backcourt set with Lillard and Matthews(before his injury).
- Tatum and Brown were both on a team that probably had too many scorers which Danny Ainge wouldn't move.
- Randall broke his leg his first game so that slowed up his improvement for years.
- Sabonis was used as a stretch 4 in OKC, you can basically throw away his first few years because of that wrong development and being traded to multiple teams.
- C.Wood's per36s says he's a baller but since nobody wanted to stay with him there has to be more to the story, he's been a PER36 25 ppg scorer for now 3 seasons and he's only 25. Even his ORTG-DRTG is very near Bam level.
- J.Grant, he's been behind better players for most of his career, he had to go to a team that would allow him to be a much higher option on offense.

Although I don't think Nunn will be a better player then Tyler, I don't think they're really all that far apart for what they can do for a team. Herro is looked upon as untouchable while the team has a short window with Butler while Nunn is treated like a 2nd round pick. It's really odd to see that big of a difference between 2 players when they seem to produce about the same, the only real difference is their age.

Herro has potential, but is it top 30 potential? I personally don't think so, especially with him probably being a liability on the defensive end for his position.

Herro came in to the season being asked to restrain his natural game and be a point guard. To act like dude has a green light when he's behind Jimmy and Bam is crazy. On a truly bad team he's already comfortably over 20ppg and we'd be wondering why we can't have nice things.

I'm not completely sure he was told to restrain his offense and try to facilitate more. In the starting lineup Miami already had 2 facilitators(who don't shoot from the outside) and need as much outside scoring as possible, when Herro "creates" there's only 2 other starters that have the potential of being outside shooters(since Butler and Bam are the other 2). The mindset Herro needs? Look at last year's starting PG... Nunn, he looked for his and allowed Butler and Bam facilitate and the team did well, a better version of that or 2 way version of that would be incredible for Miami(which is why I'm so big on acquiring Oladipo, not a top tier player but would completely help turn around this season). Miami's starters are having to rely on Olynyk firing up any 3pt shot he can but they want Herro to pass? It really makes no sense especially when they were trying to find a spot for him in the starting lineup with 2 non shooters already there.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#27 » by abark » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:53 pm

AirP. wrote:
Hallstar wrote:
Spoiler:
AirP. wrote:I do understand what you're saying and it's true and also these players did get better at their games but there are circumstances with most of those players. Herro has been given every opportunity by Miami to succeed, given a key scoring role early on because the team desperately needed scorers while players on your list had to wait for a bigger role.

Just looking at that list...
- Giannis, Gobert and even Ingram were projects.
- P.George had Granger in front of him
- Lowry had Conley and A.Brooks in front of him on 2 different teams.
- Butler, Chicago had a ton of key injuries that led to him getting offensive opportunities and then working on those opportunities in the offseason to become what he is now.
- Steph had M.Ellis in front of him.
- Rondo was the PG for Pierce, KG and R.Allen.
- Harden was 3rd banana behind KD and Westbrook.
- CJ was drafted on a team with it's backcourt set with Lillard and Matthews(before his injury).
- Tatum and Brown were both on a team that probably had too many scorers which Danny Ainge wouldn't move.
- Randall broke his leg his first game so that slowed up his improvement for years.
- Sabonis was used as a stretch 4 in OKC, you can basically throw away his first few years because of that wrong development and being traded to multiple teams.
- C.Wood's per36s says he's a baller but since nobody wanted to stay with him there has to be more to the story, he's been a PER36 25 ppg scorer for now 3 seasons and he's only 25. Even his ORTG-DRTG is very near Bam level.
- J.Grant, he's been behind better players for most of his career, he had to go to a team that would allow him to be a much higher option on offense.

Although I don't think Nunn will be a better player then Tyler, I don't think they're really all that far apart for what they can do for a team. Herro is looked upon as untouchable while the team has a short window with Butler while Nunn is treated like a 2nd round pick. It's really odd to see that big of a difference between 2 players when they seem to produce about the same, the only real difference is their age.

Herro has potential, but is it top 30 potential? I personally don't think so, especially with him probably being a liability on the defensive end for his position.

Herro came in to the season being asked to restrain his natural game and be a point guard. To act like dude has a green light when he's behind Jimmy and Bam is crazy. On a truly bad team he's already comfortably over 20ppg and we'd be wondering why we can't have nice things.

I'm not completely sure he was told to restrain his offense and try to facilitate more. In the starting lineup Miami already had 2 facilitators(who don't shoot from the outside) and need as much outside scoring as possible, when Herro "creates" there's only 2 other starters that have the potential of being outside shooters(since Butler and Bam are the other 2). The mindset Herro needs? Look at last year's starting PG... Nunn, he looked for his and allowed Butler and Bam facilitate and the team did well, a better version of that or 2 way version of that would be incredible for Miami (which is why I'm so big on acquiring Oladipo, not a top tier player but would completely help turn around this season). Miami's starters are having to rely on Olynyk firing up any 3pt shot he can but they want Herro to pass? It really makes no sense especially when they were trying to find a spot for him in the starting lineup with 2 non shooters already there.

The same Oladipo that has had a 50%TS (his % this yr too) and negative BPM ever since his injury. Hasn't been close to the same the defender either despite the steals.

I wanted him to be a possible answer, but he is just not the same guy anymore.


And I don’t get why these other guys get excuses but Herro doesn't. Herro went to a team w 2 all stars, so he's never had any keys handed to him whether u think he deserves it or not. He's been played at 2 spots, 6th man and PG. He's never gotten a chance to be the starting SG (due to roster construction), which is his real position.

...I guess I can play the excuse game too.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#28 » by AirP. » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:04 pm

abark wrote:
Spoiler:
AirP. wrote:
Hallstar wrote:Herro came in to the season being asked to restrain his natural game and be a point guard. To act like dude has a green light when he's behind Jimmy and Bam is crazy. On a truly bad team he's already comfortably over 20ppg and we'd be wondering why we can't have nice things.

I'm not completely sure he was told to restrain his offense and try to facilitate more. In the starting lineup Miami already had 2 facilitators(who don't shoot from the outside) and need as much outside scoring as possible, when Herro "creates" there's only 2 other starters that have the potential of being outside shooters(since Butler and Bam are the other 2). The mindset Herro needs? Look at last year's starting PG... Nunn, he looked for his and allowed Butler and Bam facilitate and the team did well, a better version of that or 2 way version of that would be incredible for Miami (which is why I'm so big on acquiring Oladipo, not a top tier player but would completely help turn around this season). Miami's starters are having to rely on Olynyk firing up any 3pt shot he can but they want Herro to pass? It really makes no sense especially when they were trying to find a spot for him in the starting lineup with 2 non shooters already there.

The same Oladipo that has had a 50%TS (his % this yr too) and negative BPM ever since his injury. Hasn't been close to the same the defender either despite the steals.

I wanted him to be a possible answer, but he is just not the same guy anymore.

Yes that guy who is getting further and further away from his injury and with that I believe getting more healthy which may be a mental thing also. Look at Paul George and Gordon Hayward and how they were "fine" for a while and then got back to where they once were. I hope his offense comes back, I expect he'll be a good defender.

Is there some risk, absolutely, it's why players like him may be available.

If Beal is in anyone's crosshairs it's going to take Bam to get him with how many teams will be going after him.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#29 » by abark » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:28 pm

AirP. wrote:
abark wrote:Umm... I never said Herro would be a star but this should be very easy to list

You're claim is so ridiculous though. Herro is scoring the same amount of points and is significantly more efficient than both Oladipo and Beal were in their 2nd year. Both didn't reach 20 ppg until their 5th year. But players "have shown you what they got by year 2"?

Some more guys that improved DRAMATICALLY after year 2...

Spoiler:
Jaylen Brown
Brandon Ingram
Goran Dragic
Domantas Sabonis
Julius Randle
Malcolm Brogdon
Fred Vanvleet
Gordan Hayward
Jerami Grant
Kahwi Leonard
CJ McCollum
Christian Wood
Kemba Walker
Rajon Rondo
Kyle Lowry
Jayson Tatum
Paul George
James Harden
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Steph Curry
Giannis Antetokounmpo


And I wanted to include Bam bc he did improve by every metric from year 2 to year 3, but Whiteside's presence makes him unfair to add. But I stand by the fact that he did significantly improve. Just look at the numbers from the games he started in year 2 (11.8/9.1/3.1 in 28.2 mpg. 28 games).

But that makes 3 players that have made all star teams on our own roster that break your rule. (Edit: I forgot about Iguadala who jumped from 12 to 18 ppg from yr 2 to 3, and made an ASG. So that makes 4)

We have also only seen 15 games of Herro's 2nd year. You seem very quick to put him in a box of what he will or won't be

I do understand what you're saying and it's true and also these players did get better at their games but there are circumstances with most of those players. Herro has been given every opportunity by Miami to succeed, given a key scoring role early on because the team desperately needed scorers while players on your list had to wait for a bigger role.

Just looking at that list...
- Giannis, Gobert and even Ingram were projects.
(And they improved well beyond yr 2. Yeah, every player is a different level of development. Can't exactly tell how much room they had to grow without hindsight tho)
- P.George had Granger in front of him
(He was a full time 30 mpg starter yr 2 and averaged 12 points)
- Lowry had Conley and A.Brooks in front of him on 2 different teams.
(Full time 34mpg starter in yr 5. Averaged 13.5/6.7)
- Butler, Chicago had a ton of key injuries that led to him getting offensive opportunities and then working on those opportunities in the offseason to become what he is now.
(He had a role player skill set and worked hard to become what he is now. Played all 82 games yr 2. Full time 39 mpg starter in yr 3 and averaged 13 points)
- Steph had M.Ellis in front of him.
(He was next to him. Curry started at PG from day 1)
- Rondo was the PG for Pierce, KG and R.Allen.
(OK...and he improved playing w them. 11/5 in yr 2 and 14/10 in yr 4)
- Harden was 3rd banana behind KD and Westbrook.
(Yeah he was 3rd banana in both yr 2 and 3. But jumped from 12 to 17 ppg. Insane efficiency improvement. 59.8%TS to 66%TS.)
- CJ was drafted on a team with it's backcourt set with Lillard and Matthews(before his injury).
(Still plenty of room to be more than the 15 min player he was yr 2. Matthews missed 22 games yr 2. CJ got 3 starts.)
- Tatum and Brown were both on a team that probably had too many scorers which Danny Ainge wouldn't move.
(Both just got better. They had capable scorers in Kemba and Hayward, but were now far outshining them. Brown has jumped from 20 to 26 ppg in yr 4 to 5 with no major changes. Tatum still improving across the board in yr 4)
- Randall broke his leg his first game so that slowed up his improvement for years.
(Yeah he lost his rookie season, but it was a broken leg. Not a career altering injury. He's having a breakout season 6 years later. He started every game in yr 3 and averaged 13 ppg on a trash team that needed more. Lost the starting role the next yr)
- Sabonis was used as a stretch 4 in OKC, you can basically throw away his first few years because of that wrong development and being traded to multiple teams.
(That's how he was used in OKC for 1 yr. His yr 2 to yr 3 per36 stats jumped over 3 points, over 2 boards, and over 1 assist in the same role. In yr 5 his assists per36 are double what they were in yr 2)
- C.Wood's per36s says he's a baller but since nobody wanted to stay with him there has to be more to the story, he's been a PER36 25 ppg scorer for now 3 seasons and he's only 25. Even his ORTG-DRTG is very near Bam level.
(Yeah, he's a very weird case)
- J.Grant, he's been behind better players for most of his career, he had to go to a team that would allow him to be a much higher option on offense.
(Played on the tanking 76ers his first 2 yrs. Averaged 9.7/4.7 on a team where he had every chance imaginable in yr 2. Then yr 3 he played in OKC where WB was only player to average even 16 ppg. Could have really used the Grant of today if he was capable of being that guy. Instead he was a 19 min, 5 ppg player)

Although I don't think Nunn will be a better player then Tyler, I don't think they're really all that far apart for what they can do for a team. Herro is looked upon as untouchable while the team has a short window with Butler while Nunn is treated like a 2nd round pick. It's really odd to see that big of a difference between 2 players when they seem to produce about the same, the only real difference is their age.

Herro has potential, but is it top 30 potential? I personally don't think so, especially with him probably being a liability on the defensive end for his position.

(Check what I wrote above in bold in the quote)

Never said Herro has top 30 potential. But let's give him the same benefit of the doubt that he can improve that other 2nd year 20/21 yr old players get.

You are severely underrating how relevant that age difference is.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#30 » by abark » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:41 pm

AirP. wrote:
abark wrote:
Spoiler:
AirP. wrote:I'm not completely sure he was told to restrain his offense and try to facilitate more. In the starting lineup Miami already had 2 facilitators(who don't shoot from the outside) and need as much outside scoring as possible, when Herro "creates" there's only 2 other starters that have the potential of being outside shooters(since Butler and Bam are the other 2). The mindset Herro needs? Look at last year's starting PG... Nunn, he looked for his and allowed Butler and Bam facilitate and the team did well, a better version of that or 2 way version of that would be incredible for Miami (which is why I'm so big on acquiring Oladipo, not a top tier player but would completely help turn around this season). Miami's starters are having to rely on Olynyk firing up any 3pt shot he can but they want Herro to pass? It really makes no sense especially when they were trying to find a spot for him in the starting lineup with 2 non shooters already there.

The same Oladipo that has had a 50%TS (his % this yr too) and negative BPM ever since his injury. Hasn't been close to the same the defender either despite the steals.

I wanted him to be a possible answer, but he is just not the same guy anymore.

Yes that guy who is getting further and further away from his injury and with that I believe getting more healthy which may be a mental thing also. Look at Paul George and Gordon Hayward and how they were "fine" for a while and then got back to where they once were. I hope his offense comes back, I expect he'll be a good defender.

Is there some risk, absolutely, it's why players like him may be available.

If Beal is in anyone's crosshairs it's going to take Bam to get him with how many teams will be going after him.

If we can get him without giving up anything substantial I'm down. But he does not currently look like he's improving as he gets further from that injury.

18.4 points on 38.6% FG and 30% 3 in his 11 games in Houston. 47.5% TS.

At what point do u become scared we might be giving a large long term extension to a 29 year old that might just be what we've seen this year and will only regress. I see the potential upside, but the downside scares me if he can't start showing life.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#31 » by AirP. » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:46 pm

abark wrote:Never said Herro has top 30 potential. But let's give him the same benefit of the doubt that he can improve that other 2nd year 20/21 yr old players get.

What? He's getting EVERY opportunity he could hope for, he was promoted to a starter for a team that just came off a finals run and lost that position.

Herro for Miami fans is like what Wiggins was for years for Minnesota fans... a superstar in waiting, he'll get a little older and better... POTENTIAL, he's already better then Butler, look at his points per game. Then there's Nunn who is older is doing nearly as well yet not valued in the same galaxy as Herro is by the fans.

I'm not worried about Herro's scoring, he's a scorer and a good one, I'm worried about his defense and a lot of that is about his size and speed which won't really change much at all as he ages. His decision making isn't great either, luckily when he's shooting he's got an array of moves to help him out of bad situations, the same can't be said of his passing.

Players usually tighten up their skills as they get older, bad decision making in real time is really hard to fix.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#32 » by abark » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:23 am

AirP. wrote:
abark wrote:Never said Herro has top 30 potential. But let's give him the same benefit of the doubt that he can improve that other 2nd year 20/21 yr old players get.

What? He's getting EVERY opportunity he could hope for, he was promoted to a starter for a team that just came off a finals run and lost that position.

Herro for Miami fans is like what Wiggins was for years for Minnesota fans... a superstar in waiting, he'll get a little older and better... POTENTIAL, he's already better then Butler, look at his points per game. Then there's Nunn who is older is doing nearly as well yet not valued in the same galaxy as Herro is by the fans.

I'm not worried about Herro's scoring, he's a scorer and a good one, I'm worried about his defense and a lot of that is about his size and speed which won't really change much at all as he ages. His decision making isn't great either, luckily when he's shooting he's got an array of moves to help him out of bad situations, the same can't be said of his passing.

Players usually tighten up their skills as they get older, bad decision making in real time is really hard to fix.

Well I'm not "Heat fans." If you are saying Nunn is just as good or better than Herro right now, I'm not arguing. If ur saying Nunn is underrated and Herro is overrated by Heat fans, same thing.

My two stances here are

1. 2nd year 20/21 year old players do improve. (I think I've proven my point there)

2. Nunn is 4.5 years older than Herro, and that should be factored into their long term value. Nunn is one year younger than Giannis.

That's it. Everything else you're saying seems to stem from issues you have with other fans. Take that up (along with your Wiggins rant) w them.

But Herro "lost his starting spot" bc he's not a pg. Unless they are willing to bench DRob, Herro doesn't fit in the starting lineup. Trying to play Herro that way stunts his game. It doesn't maximize the talent on our team.

I do agree that Herro is going to have to become good enough on offense to counter his defensive deficiencies if he is going to be what "Heat fans" are hoping he'll become. But plenty of guards that are as weak on that end have become very good players. Kyrie Irving, Booker, Jamal Murray, Beal, Lillard, Ingram, McCollum, and Trae Young are all currently significant negatives on that end. Am I saying Herro will be as good as them, absolutely not. But he is not so inept there that he has no chance of having his offensive game counter the fact that yeah, he will always be a net negative defender.

But let's see how good Herro is in 4.5 years, when he's the same age as Nunn. When Nunn was the same age Herro was as a rookie he was putting up 11/3.5/1.9 (40%FG, 51.3TS) at Illinois. When he was Herro's current age he was averaging 15.5, 5, 1.7 (42.8%FG, 55.5TS) in 35 mpg there.

It then took him 4 years, including working on his game in the g-league, to finally make the league (where he did play well when he finally did).

But young player don't improve... :roll:
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#33 » by rate_ » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:15 am

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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#34 » by AirP. » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:04 am

abark wrote:But young player don't improve... :roll:

You act like if they're young then they'll guaranteed to improve, it's not like that for a lot of players. You can go through the lottery throughout the years and see that most didn't get much better although they were young. Look at Andrew Wiggins, at age 21 put up near 24 ppg, since then not much. Towns made ROY, 3rd year all-nba now... just a great offensive center leading his team to not much year after year. Good lord what year is is not in Ben Simmons career and he's really not gotten much better as a player the entire time?

If you can get a proven difference maker I think you should go all in with that vs hope a young guy turns into one.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#35 » by Grumpy Heat Fan » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:08 am

"As for me personally, I don't truly care how much I make these days, my main focus is on playing for a winner." - Dirk Nowitzki, July 2016
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#36 » by abark » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:31 am

AirP. wrote:
abark wrote:But young player don't improve... :roll:

You act like if they're young then they'll guaranteed to improve, it's not like that for a lot of players. You can go through the lottery throughout the years and see that most didn't get much better although they were young. Look at Andrew Wiggins, at age 21 put up near 24 ppg, since then not much. Towns made ROY, 3rd year all-nba now... just a great offensive center leading his team to not much year after year. Good lord what year is is not in Ben Simmons career and he's really not gotten much better as a player the entire time?

If you can get a proven difference maker I think you should go all in with that vs hope a young guy turns into one.

Yes, it is not a guarentee that every young player will improve. That is true. Tyreke Evan's best year was his rookie season.

But the overwhelming tendency is that young players do improve, with some exceptions.

Do you want to make a list of young players who had their best season in their first 2 years, or never improved beyond there. I'll continue w mine of players that improved beyond year 2. I promise mine will be INFINITELY longer, to the point it will straight up be embarrassing.

And I predict your list would mostly consist of highly touted prospects (that were never actually that good, or were just bad) that immediately got the keys to the franchise handed to them on bad teams (Wiggins, DSJ, MCW), only for their teams to realize they were never nearly as good as they thought to begin with. And that they didn't deserve the role they had initially been handed. That, and players that suffered injuries.

And I've never advocated for not trading Herro, or any of our young players, if we could get a proven difference maker (If u are talking about Oladipo, I don't believe he is a difference maker anymore). So not sure why u brought that up.

I honestly feel like some of the issues u are bringing up to me is stuff you've heard from other fans that I've never said.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#37 » by abark » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:57 am

Grumpy Heat Fan wrote:

Just wondering. Why didn't u post videos when Herro scored 27 in two of the last 3 games? I really don't have a stake either way in this Herro vs Nunn debate bc they are both on my team.

But honest question. Are you a Nunn fan or a Heat fan? I have literally never seen u make a non-Nunn related comment.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#38 » by AirP. » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:21 pm

Spoiler:
abark wrote:
AirP. wrote:
abark wrote:But young player don't improve... :roll:

You act like if they're young then they'll guaranteed to improve, it's not like that for a lot of players. You can go through the lottery throughout the years and see that most didn't get much better although they were young. Look at Andrew Wiggins, at age 21 put up near 24 ppg, since then not much. Towns made ROY, 3rd year all-nba now... just a great offensive center leading his team to not much year after year. Good lord what year is is not in Ben Simmons career and he's really not gotten much better as a player the entire time?

If you can get a proven difference maker I think you should go all in with that vs hope a young guy turns into one.

Yes, it is not a guarantee that every young player will improve. That is true. Tyreke Evan's best year was his rookie season.

But the overwhelming tendency is that young players do improve, with some exceptions.

Do you want to make a list of young players who had their best season in their first 2 years, or never improved beyond there. I'll continue w mine of players that improved beyond year 2. I promise mine will be INFINITELY longer, to the point it will straight up be embarrassing.

And I predict your list would mostly consist of highly touted prospects (that were never actually that good, or were just bad) that immediately got the keys to the franchise handed to them on bad teams (Wiggins, DSJ, MCW), only for their teams to realize they were never nearly as good as they thought to begin with. And that they didn't deserve the role they had initially been handed. That, and players that suffered injuries.

And I've never advocated for not trading Herro, or any of our young players, if we could get a proven difference maker (If u are talking about Oladipo, I don't believe he is a difference maker anymore). So not sure why u brought that up.

I honestly feel like some of the issues u are bringing up to me is stuff you've heard from other fans that I've never said.

OK, my original argument was questioning(no particular person) why there was such a huge gap in value between Herro who some see as nearly untradeable and Nunn who is treated as having the value of a 2nd round pick. Nunn may give a team(where ever he is) nearly what Herro does for the next 5 years if given the same opportunities.

We can disagree about Oladipo, I think he's still 6-12 months away from possibly being his old self mentally after his injury and adding him now would give Miami the amount of time needed to determine if that's the case and with that info decide if it's worth the risk to sign him long term. It's a bet on the long term for a 2nd tier star while getting a solid 2 way player for this year with possible upside if he gets where he needs to be mentally before the end of the season. I personally think it's a much riskier position to not trade for him and then decide without having him if you're going to sink long term money into him(because you can't get a better player).

Threads go off in different directions when more info is brought into them. Unless I just backtrack and reread things, I don't always remember what all has been said by a certain person unless it's in the replies.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#39 » by abark » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:24 am

AirP. wrote:
Spoiler:
abark wrote:
AirP. wrote:You act like if they're young then they'll guaranteed to improve, it's not like that for a lot of players. You can go through the lottery throughout the years and see that most didn't get much better although they were young. Look at Andrew Wiggins, at age 21 put up near 24 ppg, since then not much. Towns made ROY, 3rd year all-nba now... just a great offensive center leading his team to not much year after year. Good lord what year is is not in Ben Simmons career and he's really not gotten much better as a player the entire time?

If you can get a proven difference maker I think you should go all in with that vs hope a young guy turns into one.

Yes, it is not a guarantee that every young player will improve. That is true. Tyreke Evan's best year was his rookie season.

But the overwhelming tendency is that young players do improve, with some exceptions.

Do you want to make a list of young players who had their best season in their first 2 years, or never improved beyond there. I'll continue w mine of players that improved beyond year 2. I promise mine will be INFINITELY longer, to the point it will straight up be embarrassing.

And I predict your list would mostly consist of highly touted prospects (that were never actually that good, or were just bad) that immediately got the keys to the franchise handed to them on bad teams (Wiggins, DSJ, MCW), only for their teams to realize they were never nearly as good as they thought to begin with. And that they didn't deserve the role they had initially been handed. That, and players that suffered injuries.

And I've never advocated for not trading Herro, or any of our young players, if we could get a proven difference maker (If u are talking about Oladipo, I don't believe he is a difference maker anymore). So not sure why u brought that up.

I honestly feel like some of the issues u are bringing up to me is stuff you've heard from other fans that I've never said.

OK, my original argument was questioning(no particular person) why there was such a huge gap in value between Herro who some see as nearly untradeable and Nunn who is treated as having the value of a 2nd round pick. Nunn may give a team(where ever he is) nearly what Herro does for the next 5 years if given the same opportunities.

We can disagree about Oladipo, I think he's still 6-12 months away from possibly being his old self mentally after his injury and adding him now would give Miami the amount of time needed to determine if that's the case and with that info decide if it's worth the risk to sign him long term. It's a bet on the long term for a 2nd tier star while getting a solid 2 way player for this year with possible upside if he gets where he needs to be mentally before the end of the season. I personally think it's a much riskier position to not trade for him and then decide without having him if you're going to sink long term money into him(because you can't get a better player).

Threads go off in different directions when more info is brought into them. Unless I just backtrack and reread things, I don't always remember what all has been said by a certain person unless it's in the replies.

Oladipo ruptured his quad tendon in Jan 2019 (18-19 season). That injury occurred over two years ago. Why are you confident he will be back to the same in 6-12 months?

Right now he is a very inefficient net negative player. If we are talking a trade for Beal or someone that currently actually is an impact player it's one thing. I'd gladly trade more than just Herro. We already made a big mistake in not selling the farm for Harden. But Harden and Beal are impact players to say the least. Oladipo isn't even a plus player, and would be a very depressing consolation prize when we could have added Duncan, Precious (probably), and picks to Herro and had Harden.

But I view trading young players and giving this version of Oladipo a large long term contract at 29 to be the one of the easiest ways to create a luxury tax treadmill team. If he starts showing even minor signs of improvement, I could change my tune. I'm not closed minded on the issue, and was a big Dipo fan.

But the team is not going to trade Herro just to have a chance of evaluating whether we give Oladipo a long term deal. If we make that trade, you might as well put pen to paper. Fans would be outraged (and we'd be destroyed in the media) if we started the next year without either player.
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Re: Kendrick Nunn will be a better player than Tyler Herro. Fire Spo. 

Post#40 » by AirP. » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:39 pm

abark wrote:
AirP. wrote:We can disagree about Oladipo, I think he's still 6-12 months away from possibly being his old self mentally after his injury and adding him now would give Miami the amount of time needed to determine if that's the case and with that info decide if it's worth the risk to sign him long term. It's a bet on the long term for a 2nd tier star while getting a solid 2 way player for this year with possible upside if he gets where he needs to be mentally before the end of the season. I personally think it's a much riskier position to not trade for him and then decide without having him if you're going to sink long term money into him(because you can't get a better player).

Oladipo ruptured his quad tendon in Jan 2019 (18-19 season). That injury occurred over two years ago. Why are you confident he will be back to the same in 6-12 months?
It's different for everone but I feel it takes 2-3 years to get over the physical and mental part of a major injury. It's not just in-game issues but how one practices also. I've watched him this season and he's just a little "off" with a good amount of misses. To me, he has some rust in his game and also I don't think he's really going full speed in Houston, he doesn't want to stay there so why risky another injury before free agency, he has possibly 1 big payday left. What he was doing in Indiana is more of an indication of where he was at the start of the season, not what he's doing in Houston.
Right now he is a very inefficient net negative player. If we are talking a trade for Beal or someone that currently actually is an impact player it's one thing. I'd gladly trade more than just Herro. We already made a big mistake in not selling the farm for Harden. But Harden and Beal are impact players to say the least. Oladipo isn't even a plus player, and would be a very depressing consolation prize when we could have added Duncan, Precious (probably), and picks to Herro and had Harden.

I agree he's a net negative player right now but if it's going to come down to either giving him money this offseason or not upgrading I'd like for Miami to have him in house for months to get a good idea of where he really is at then just looking at his medicals.
But I view trading young players and giving this version of Oladipo a large long-term contract at 29 to be the one of the easiest ways to create a luxury tax treadmill team. If he starts showing even minor signs of improvement, I could change my tune. I'm not closed minded on the issue, and was a big Dipo fan.

No longer term contract right now, you play him on his current contract for 1/2 a season and make a call based on what you know and see to decide if you retain him this summer.

But the team is not going to trade Herro just to have a chance of evaluating whether we give Oladipo a long term deal. If we make that trade, you might as well put pen to paper. Fans would be outraged (and we'd be destroyed in the media) if we started the next year without either player.

I get this, I probably don't trade Herro to possibly rent Oladipo unless there are more assets coming(which I doubt).

The bigger issue is that a third big player is needed to go with Butler and Bam for the next 3-4 years and Miami has just let talent go elsewhere hoping to get a top tier player for cap room. I think Herro could be a good/great scorer but I really don't know if his defense will ever be good enough for a championship-level team, especially with Butler declining for the rest of his career. To me both Herro and Nunn look to be great options at scoring 6th men much like Lou Williams has been.

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