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MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021

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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#641 » by Flash4thewin » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:25 am

gom wrote:
Chalm Down wrote:
Wiltside wrote:I don't think I've ever seen gom this pessimistic either. Shambles.


This is what happens when you get kermit'ed in the first round


I'm actually happy to be out now. I can't imagine how we would have looked against the Nets. Losing by 30 to the Bucks was hard but there is always worse.


We got swept, we looked like trash and we didnt even play with pride. It doesnt get much worse than that. Its pretty hard to top how bad we looked.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#642 » by RexBoyWonder » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:38 am

SA37 wrote:
contract wrote:
Spoiler:
SA37 wrote:
Possibly.

I don’t think Miami is as bad as a 1st rd exit might lead some to believe just like Miami making the Finals didn’t make Miami a perennial title contender.

The reality is Riley is highly unlikely to blow the team up and, even if he were more inclined to do so, Miami’s draft pick situation is not optimal for it. The other side of that is Miami’s ability to improve the roster is limited by its limited draft assets.

Lowry could be Miami’s Chris Paul if he decided to sign with the Heat. Oladipo could make a full recovery and be 100% by January. Herro could make the strides he didn’t make this past summer. There are good players who might become available via trade or free agency, like Beal, DeRozan, Porzingis, Kemba Walker, M Turner, M Brogdon, KAT, B Simmon, D Lillard…etc.

Miami can upgrade its roster to be a realistic contender for the next 2-3 years, which is about as much as you can expect from any franchise. When you are that close to contending, you don’t blow it up to see if lotto balls go your way for draft picks you may not get to keep.

I agree that it makes no sense to give up on trying to contend, but absent a star forcing his way here, we're not realistic contenders. Absent a star forcing his way here, we're going to have to pull off an upset just to reach the conference finals.

We're currently in a position where we can expect some rotation players to decline at roughly the same rate as other younger rotation players improve. I don't see an obvious way to improve significantly. Hopefully Pat does.


Stars are in short supply, especially the franchise-changing variety. However, there are a few who may become available this summer: Kawhi, Lillard, Beal, Ben Simmons, DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry.

Plus you have All-star calibre guys who are also likely to be available: Kemba Walker, Kristaps Porzingis, Malcolm Brogdon, Myles Turner, Al Horford (granted, his best days may be behind him).

Of the guys mentioned above, I think Miami has a real shot at getting Lowry, DeRozan, and Beal (if he were to try to force his exit from Washington).

Being optimistic, but conservative, if Miami manages to get Lowry and re-signs Oladipo, you’re talking about a Miami team that would feature 4 players in the top-50 in the league, 2 of whom are arguably in the top-25.

Miami is going to have to model itself after Utah and Phoenix, not Brooklyn, the Clippers, or the Lakers.


This right here.

We all need to make that mental adjustment and realize that :

1) Superstars market is dead at the moment and us getting a true superstar in the next 2 years is very unlikely.

2) Due to point #1, We need to build around 4-5 "stars" or "borderline stars" and hope to create a great balance. Those teams rarely win big, but it's the best option we have at this point in time.

The Model is this year's Suns. They're aren't winning due to having multipole superstars - They have old Cp3, Booker, emerging Ayton and great role players. Great chemistry and playing hard and smart. We can go that route and do it just as well with Jimmy + Bam + __________ + ______________.

3) We're not trading Jimmy, because he's the closest thing we have to a superstar and we're not about that tank life. Weather the fanbase likes it or not.

Jimmy
Bam
Oladipo (might bounce back is surgery went well, should be cheap to retain)
Lowry (might surprise us with what he has left in the tank, just like CP3 did)
Herro (Might surprise us with another leap, still very young and the potential didn't disappear)
Porzingis (might be attainable due to health risk, if can stay unbroken he's a good fit and a borderline star)

Those kinds of of players combination are the ones we can realistically get and the hope would be that health/improvement go our way.

There are years when you don't have great in prime superstars. You can still be damn good, and with some luck maybe even go to the finals.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#643 » by RexBoyWonder » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:49 am

Flash4thewin wrote:
gom wrote:
Chalm Down wrote:
This is what happens when you get kermit'ed in the first round


I'm actually happy to be out now. I can't imagine how we would have looked against the Nets. Losing by 30 to the Bucks was hard but there is always worse.


We got swept, we looked like trash and we didnt even play with pride. It doesnt get much worse than that. Its pretty hard to top how bad we looked.



We looked very bad, but there were 2 major factors you need to remember :

1) Bubble year and no summer break really drained us. Celtics and Lakers didn't look much better.
2) We got a really bad matchup IMO. We would've looked a lot better if we just ended up the 4/5 spots and not faced the Bucks defense.
3) We just weren't good enough all year. We're missing a couple of key pieces. But those pieces might be attainable this offseason, we have some flexibility and a few options. We need to hit on those new additions.

We shouldn't overreact. We probably we're the second best team in NBA last year, and we're not as bad as we looked against the Bucks. Truth is in the middle - we're a pretty good team that can become a very good team IF we can add the right 2-3 pieces. We have the tools to make things happen.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#644 » by gom » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:52 am

Flash4thewin wrote:
gom wrote:
Chalm Down wrote:
This is what happens when you get kermit'ed in the first round


I'm actually happy to be out now. I can't imagine how we would have looked against the Nets. Losing by 30 to the Bucks was hard but there is always worse.


We got swept, we looked like trash and we didnt even play with pride. It doesnt get much worse than that. Its pretty hard to top how bad we looked.


It also dismisses our whole discourse about Culture and the hard work ethic people associate with Miami. Our performance on the wood was extremely demeaning for the FO, the players, and the fans. At the urging of the team, I bought into this team's philosophy. I defended our players' value in trades. I defended them for not being selected for all star games or all-nba or all-defensive team.

I am not a happy fan and have no desire to watch these same guys (with a tweak or two) putting that trash out there again.

sorry
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#645 » by gom » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:55 am

RexBoyWonder wrote:We looked very bad, but there were 2 major factors you need to remember :

1) Bubble year and no summer break really drained us. Celtics and Lakers didn't look much better.
2) We got a really bad matchup IMO. We would've looked a lot better if we just ended up the 4/5 spots and not faced the Bucks defense.
3) We just weren't good enough all year. We're missing a couple of key pieces. But those pieces might be attainable this offseason, we have some flexibility and a few options. We need to hit on those new additions.



So, we're a team of excuses now? What happened to Next Man Up. That's why the bench players are supposed to keep in condition. Right? We praise them for being ready.

Some of these messages about extending Oladipo... man. Just put a stake in it please.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#646 » by contract » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:03 am

SA37 wrote:Stars are in short supply, especially the franchise-changing variety. However, there are a few who may become available this summer: Kawhi, Lillard, Beal, Ben Simmons, DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry.

Plus you have All-star calibre guys who are also likely to be available: Kemba Walker, Kristaps Porzingis, Malcolm Brogdon, Myles Turner, Al Horford (granted, his best days may be behind him).

Of the guys mentioned above, I think Miami has a real shot at getting Lowry, DeRozan, and Beal (if he were to try to force his exit from Washington).

Being optimistic, but conservative, if Miami manages to get Lowry and re-signs Oladipo, you’re talking about a Miami team that would feature 4 players in the top-50 in the league, 2 of whom are arguably in the top-25.

Miami is going to have to model itself after Utah and Phoenix, not Brooklyn, the Clippers, or the Lakers.

I was with you until you got to that part. Lowry is no longer a top 50 player, and Oladipo sure as hell ain't. Also, Lowry will do nothing but decline going forward. Lowry can give us 1 or maybe 2 years tops, then we need that cap space back. And as for Dipo, it's been 4 years since that one blow up season he had. Maybe it's just been injuries, but that season looks like an outlier. I don't see him ever getting back to that level. If he can stay healthy and improve his efficiency he can be an asset on both ends of the court, but I have little faith that he will do either.

Whatever happens, Bam being our 2nd scorer is just not sustainable if we want to contend. I'm more worried about that than our sorry rebounding. Bam as #2 shifts too much weight onto Jimmy's shoulders, and he just isn't that type of scorer. We need another 20 point scorer. Someone who can be counted on from game to game. If we don't address that need we'll be swimming upstream again all of next season.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#647 » by twix2500 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:50 am

contract wrote:
SA37 wrote:Stars are in short supply, especially the franchise-changing variety. However, there are a few who may become available this summer: Kawhi, Lillard, Beal, Ben Simmons, DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry.

Plus you have All-star calibre guys who are also likely to be available: Kemba Walker, Kristaps Porzingis, Malcolm Brogdon, Myles Turner, Al Horford (granted, his best days may be behind him).

Of the guys mentioned above, I think Miami has a real shot at getting Lowry, DeRozan, and Beal (if he were to try to force his exit from Washington).

Being optimistic, but conservative, if Miami manages to get Lowry and re-signs Oladipo, you’re talking about a Miami team that would feature 4 players in the top-50 in the league, 2 of whom are arguably in the top-25.

Miami is going to have to model itself after Utah and Phoenix, not Brooklyn, the Clippers, or the Lakers.

I was with you until you got to that part. Lowry is no longer a top 50 player, and Oladipo sure as hell ain't. Also, Lowry will do nothing but decline going forward. Lowry can give us 1 or maybe 2 years tops, then we need that cap space back. And as for Dipo, it's been 4 years since that one blow up season he had. Maybe it's just been injuries, but that season looks like an outlier. I don't see him ever getting back to that level. If he can stay healthy and improve his efficiency he can be an asset on both ends of the court, but I have little faith that he will do either.

Whatever happens, Bam being our 2nd scorer is just not sustainable if we want to contend. I'm more worried about that than our sorry rebounding. Bam as #2 shifts too much weight onto Jimmy shoulders, and he just isn't that type of scorer. We need another 20 point scorer. Someone who can be counted on from game to game. If we don't address that need we'll be swimming upstream again all of next season.


I'm hard on Bam not because I don't think he can be a go too scorer its because he does have ability. He is not there yet, but he is not that far off. I'm not talking about an elite scorer which are 28 pts and above guy. But a 20 plus guy who you can give the ball to and he will carry the team on stretches as a scorer.

Look this is part of drafting and developing players. You got to deal with the failures. This is it, if you want to draft and have someone who you grow and develop. Its the samething I was saying about Embiid. Most players have to fail in the playoffs to grow. Players tend to figure it out in their late 20s, between 28 and 32.

Lillard is 30 yrs old and now people giving him his props. Chris webber went from 20 pts at age 25 to 24 pts at the age of 26 and 27 pts at 27 yrs old. Got to live with and hope his growth happens in time.

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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#648 » by contract » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:59 am

gom wrote:
Flash4thewin wrote:
gom wrote:
I'm actually happy to be out now. I can't imagine how we would have looked against the Nets. Losing by 30 to the Bucks was hard but there is always worse.


We got swept, we looked like trash and we didnt even play with pride. It doesnt get much worse than that. Its pretty hard to top how bad we looked.


It also dismisses our whole discourse about Culture and the hard work ethic people associate with Miami. Our performance on the wood was extremely demeaning for the FO, the players, and the fans. At the urging of the team, I bought into this team's philosophy. I defended our players' value in trades. I defended them for not being selected for all star games or all-nba or all-defensive team.

I am not a happy fan and have no desire to watch these same guys (with a tweak or two) putting that trash out there again.

sorry

Don't take it personally. You'll just make yourself miserable.

You're right that the lack of fight made a joke of our "culture", and frankly I think that Pat will turn the roster over because of it. I would be surprised if 2/3 of the team isn't gone before next season starts ... and maybe more before the trade deadline. No matter what he may be saying right now, that's not the type of thing that Pat puts up with historically.

And to be honest IMO there was an undertone of mutiny that came right from the top of our roster (Jimmy & Bam). Guys seemed to be unhappy with what Spo was doing and quit putting out as a result. That is not acceptable. Neither of these guys is Lebron. I don't care if the head coach is the stupidest man alive and knows nothing about the sport. He coaches, you play.

I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them is gone by the trade deadline next season.

But in either case ... :meditate:

Your mind and your blood pressure will thank you.
:meditate:
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#649 » by heat4life » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:11 pm

SA37 wrote:Stars are in short supply, especially the franchise-changing variety. However, there are a few who may become available this summer: Kawhi, Lillard, Beal, Ben Simmons, DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry.

Plus you have All-star calibre guys who are also likely to be available: Kemba Walker, Kristaps Porzingis, Malcolm Brogdon, Myles Turner, Al Horford (granted, his best days may be behind him).

Of the guys mentioned above, I think Miami has a real shot at getting Lowry, DeRozan, and Beal (if he were to try to force his exit from Washington).

Being optimistic, but conservative, if Miami manages to get Lowry and re-signs Oladipo, you’re talking about a Miami team that would feature 4 players in the top-50 in the league, 2 of whom are arguably in the top-25.

Miami is going to have to model itself after Utah and Phoenix, not Brooklyn, the Clippers, or the Lakers.


Did you just sneak-in Ben Simmons name in your franchise changing players list? :o :lol:
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#650 » by DayofMourning » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:55 pm

Heat going to try and put Oubre on their developmental program? I think we're going to be less than impressed with that decision. Like it or not, Riley may be going out like a lamb. Stage isn't set for him to make waves.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#651 » by Kobewade11 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:02 pm

DayofMourning wrote:Heat going to try and put Oubre on their developmental program? I think we're going to be less than impressed with that decision. Like it or not, Riley may be going out like a lamb. Stage isn't set for him to make waves.

Agents put our name into the mix with free agents like this every year. There's probably nothing substantial to that headline.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#652 » by twix2500 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:46 pm

DayofMourning wrote:Heat going to try and put Oubre on their developmental program? I think we're going to be less than impressed with that decision. Like it or not, Riley may be going out like a lamb. Stage isn't set for him to make waves.
Don't think they look at Oubre as a development player. He is what he is, an athletic defending wing. At this phase development will be reserved for summer league and gleague not real games. A role player not a core addition.

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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#653 » by RexBoyWonder » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:04 pm

twix2500 wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:Heat going to try and put Oubre on their developmental program? I think we're going to be less than impressed with that decision. Like it or not, Riley may be going out like a lamb. Stage isn't set for him to make waves.
Don't think they look at Oubre as a development player. He is what he is, an athletic defending wing. At this phase development will be reserved for summer league and gleague not real games. A role player not a core addition.

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I don't think a team built around Jimmy and Bam can afford to add any non-bigs that are below average shooters.

I love our guys but we're on the wrong side of history here.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#654 » by AirP. » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:37 pm

gom wrote:Some of these messages about extending Oladipo... man. Just put a stake in it please.


If this team wants to be a contender and don't have two top tier players carrying the team(and it doesn't) you have to take risks on talent and Oladipo might be one of those risks but it entirely depends on what Miami's medical staff tells the FO. The trade for Oladipo wasn't to rent him, it was also to have his medical records and being able to monitor his health how he rehabs and his overall fit with the Miami environment.

That all being said, unless he just wants to stay in Miami giving the Heat a discount or very short term contract, other talent depraved teams will ask for his medicals and possibly roll the dice on getting 3-4 good years out of him taking him out of Miami's ability to resign him (when considering the risk). I think if their doctors think he's a good risk, the Knicks will make him a decent to solid contract offer, Oladipo's the type of player Thibodeau would love and early in his career Chicago did go after Oladipo when he was with Orlando.

If Miami doesn't retain Oladipo and Miami doesn't get much better, it's quite possible Riley's going to get a lot of hate next offseason when fans realize that they didn't give up "nothing" for Oladipo and watch their only 1st round pick in 3 years get swapped from middle of the first round(where a good player could drop to) to near the end of the first round when Houston swaps their Brooklyn pick with Miami's

Just ignoring Oladipo could limit the ceiling of the Heat's roster.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#655 » by MettaWorldPanda » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:41 pm

Flash4thewin wrote:
MettaWorldPanda wrote:Raps trade C Aron Baynes and S&T PG Kyle Lowry for PG Goran Dragic, SF Andre Iguodala, and PF Precious Achuiwa. Achuiwa is the cost of doing business for the Raps helping facilitate S&T. We get a center in Baynes who can play with Bam. Trade allows us to fill other needs with MLE and Bi annual.


The Raps will laugh at that. If we get Lowry it will be with Cap space. The Raps have made their terms clear, they want Herro for any Lowry trade. They are clearly ok with letting him walk, so that means we need to renounce everyone except Duncan and Nunn, but that also means we need to match whatever they get in free agency.

Raps tried to get us to over pay at the deadline. Those terms are no longer valid. If the Raps want to do right by a franchise stalwart and get him the most money possible then it's via S&T. They are essentially getting a first round pick here in Achuiwa and two expiring contracts for a player that wants to leave and a player in Baynes they are looking to move on from. Raps have interest in getting a more scoring big man and have been rumored to be in on Al Horford and would not shock me if they start poking interest at Porzingis. The contracts of Dragic and Iguodala will help them facilitate another move if a third team or 4th team is not involved to begin with.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#656 » by MettaWorldPanda » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:46 pm

AirP. wrote:
gom wrote:Some of these messages about extending Oladipo... man. Just put a stake in it please.


If this team wants to be a contender and don't have two top tier players carrying the team(and it doesn't) you have to take risks on talent and Oladipo might be one of those risks but it entirely depends on what Miami's medical staff tells the FO. The trade for Oladipo wasn't to rent him, it was also to have his medical records and being able to monitor his health how he rehabs and his overall fit with the Miami environment.

That all being said, unless he just wants to stay in Miami giving the Heat a discount or very short term contract, other talent depraved teams will ask for his medicals and possibly roll the dice on getting 3-4 good years out of him taking him out of Miami's ability to resign him (when considering the risk). I think if their doctors think he's a good risk, the Knicks will make him a decent to solid contract offer, Oladipo's the type of player Thibodeau would love and early in his career Chicago did go after Oladipo when he was with Orlando.

If Miami doesn't retain Oladipo and Miami doesn't get much better, it's quite possible Riley's going to get a lot of hate next offseason when fans realize that they didn't give up "nothing" for Oladipo and watch their only 1st round pick in 3 years get swapped from middle of the first round(where a good player could drop to) to near the end of the first round when Houston swaps their Brooklyn pick with Miami's

Just ignoring Oladipo could limit the ceiling of the Heat's roster.

Yeah. This is why it's wise just to move forward in making moves as a capped out team because we can offer Oladipo a cheap contract over the cap with bird rights but make sure we put some heavy injury language in it. Dipo is worth stashing in the so called Haslem roster spot that some claim Spo never uses. I would rather have the roster spot saved for someone like Dipo who's high risk and reward. This team is beyond Haslem throwing chairs and rah rah speeches. We need to find a way for him to do that without eating a roster spot. I think we have mad up any money that was owed to him the last 5 years by letting him collect 2-3 million just sitting on the bench to yell at people. Haslem is 41 years old. It's becoming a meme/joke already.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#657 » by Beenie » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:57 pm

If Reggie Jackson could be had at a number less than what Nunn will command, I'd favor Jax to provide the PG depth.

TBC, I still prioritize a higher quality PG/perimeter playmaker than either guy.
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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#658 » by twix2500 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:13 pm

RexBoyWonder wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:Heat going to try and put Oubre on their developmental program? I think we're going to be less than impressed with that decision. Like it or not, Riley may be going out like a lamb. Stage isn't set for him to make waves.
Don't think they look at Oubre as a development player. He is what he is, an athletic defending wing. At this phase development will be reserved for summer league and gleague not real games. A role player not a core addition.

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I don't think a team built around Jimmy and Bam can afford to add any non-bigs that are below average shooters.

I love our guys but we're on the wrong side of history here.


Everyone not gonna be shooters. Just not realistic. Majority of them will be. Just like Dedmon is not a shooter, he is there for defense and rebounding. Oubre is to press on defense and defend athletic wings and run on offense. Shooting wings will be Lowry, Robinson and Herro responsibility.

You will hear about a stretch 4. Just because its the first rumor doesn't mean he the first guy they are looking at. IMO he will be a little too expensive. But they seem to be putting out signs to agents. I think Richardson is an easier get.

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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#659 » by twix2500 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:16 pm

Beenie wrote:If Reggie Jackson could be had at a number less than what Nunn will command, I'd favor Jax to provide the PG depth.

TBC, I still prioritize a higher quality PG/perimeter playmaker than either guy.
I was wondering could trading Nunn for Reggie and Ibaka work.

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Re: MIAMI HEAT Offseason Thread 2021 

Post#660 » by Beenie » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:53 pm

twix2500 wrote:
Beenie wrote:If Reggie Jackson could be had at a number less than what Nunn will command, I'd favor Jax to provide the PG depth.

TBC, I still prioritize a higher quality PG/perimeter playmaker than either guy.
I was wondering could trading Nunn for Reggie and Ibaka work.

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Clips seem to like Reggie so they would really have to love Nunn.

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