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Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST

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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#381 » by ducler » Thu Jan 6, 2022 8:09 am

eddieheatfan wrote:
ducler wrote:
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wut? dame is playing?? isnt he injured or something....

Sorry, mistake... Must be the fatigue :(
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#382 » by Shootit » Thu Jan 6, 2022 12:17 pm

That was an interesting game. Glad they pulled off the win after that BS ejection with Lowry in the 1st.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#383 » by somerandomdude » Thu Jan 6, 2022 1:35 pm

Fragile. Handle with care.

AirP. wrote:
QUESTION: Why was Kyle Lowry assessed a second technical foul and ejected at the end of the first half?

RICHARDSON: Kyle Lowry received his second technical foul for continuous complaining and throwing the ball at a game official in an unsportsmanlike manner. As per rule, a player receiving a second unsportsmanlike technical foul is automatically ejected.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#384 » by somerandomdude » Thu Jan 6, 2022 1:43 pm

Probably an unpopular take but the Herro ejection worked out in the end.

He wasn't having a good game and he got Nurkic tossed.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#385 » by AirP. » Thu Jan 6, 2022 1:43 pm

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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#386 » by AirP. » Thu Jan 6, 2022 1:49 pm

somerandomdude wrote:Fragile. Handle with care.

AirP. wrote:
QUESTION: Why was Kyle Lowry assessed a second technical foul and ejected at the end of the first half?

RICHARDSON: Kyle Lowry received his second technical foul for continuous complaining and throwing the ball at a game official in an unsportsmanlike manner. As per rule, a player receiving a second unsportsmanlike technical foul is automatically ejected.

It's a rule. Had Lowry not been on the refs all game long maybe the ref wouldn't have thought Lowry was trying to get away with one there(which I think he tried). Not saying it was thrown hard, just saying he tried to catch the ref off guard to get away with a legal hit on a ref, basically a smartass move like... oh, I didn't know you weren't ready for that.

Here's a few of others in the last few years.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#387 » by somerandomdude » Thu Jan 6, 2022 1:53 pm

AirP. wrote:
somerandomdude wrote:Fragile. Handle with care.

AirP. wrote:

It's a rule.

Spoiler:
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From the examples you've shown me, it seems like the refs are stretching the definition of "unsportsmanlike conduct" and "throwing the ball with force." It just reaffirms that the refs are fragile.

If I'm a player, I'm not even gonna bother throwing the ball to the refs anymore. Just put it on the floor and have them come pick it up. Not worth the risk.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#388 » by greg4012 » Thu Jan 6, 2022 2:58 pm

AirP. wrote:Not only did Yurtseven not call out the screen, he actually pushed off on Nurkic which led to Nurkic's shoulder moving forward for an even harder screen on Herro.
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And blocked the shot
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#389 » by AirP. » Thu Jan 6, 2022 3:18 pm

greg4012 wrote:
AirP. wrote:Not only did Yurtseven not call out the screen, he actually pushed off on Nurkic which led to Nurkic's shoulder moving forward for an even harder screen on Herro.
Spoiler:
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And blocked the shot

Sure he's talented, there's no doubt about that to me but he doesn't understand the team aspect things, he's often out of position/missing assignments and his communications with his teammates which ends up hurting the team or making other players look bad. What we are seeing with Yurtseven and Dedmon is that a legit sized center who stays closer to the basket on this roster can really do. What Miami can't do is allow the bad slide just because of the outcome is positive, that's how you stunt the growth of a player.

Spolestra is special, he usually gets the most out of his players and just in the short time I've followed this team, I've seen a lot of "good" players leave Miami and just not be nearly as good elsewhere. Richardson, Winslow, Whiteside, J.Johnson, T.Johnson, M.Leonard, and D.Waiters. Currently I think players like Butler, Bam, Robinson, Herro, Strus, Dedmon, C.Martin, Yurtseven, Vincent, and Guy are playing much better in Miami then they would elsewhere and it's why I have a lot of faith in Oladipo in Miami. FO and head coach stability is huge for a franchise and Miami is one of the few franchises that understands this.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#390 » by greg4012 » Thu Jan 6, 2022 3:47 pm

AirP. wrote:
greg4012 wrote:
AirP. wrote:Not only did Yurtseven not call out the screen, he actually pushed off on Nurkic which led to Nurkic's shoulder moving forward for an even harder screen on Herro.
Spoiler:
Read on Twitter


And blocked the shot

Sure he's talented, there's no doubt about that to me but he doesn't understand the team aspect things, he's often out of position/missing assignments and his communications with his teammates which ends up hurting the team or making other players look bad. What we are seeing with Yurtseven and Dedmon is that a legit sized center who stays closer to the basket on this roster can really do. What Miami can't do is allow the bad slide just because of the outcome is positive, that's how you stunt the growth of a player.

Spolestra is special, he usually gets the most out of his players and just in the short time I've followed this team, I've seen a lot of "good" players leave Miami and just not be nearly as good elsewhere. Richardson, Winslow, Whiteside, J.Johnson, T.Johnson, M.Leonard, and D.Waiters. Currently I think players like Butler, Bam, Robinson, Herro, Strus, Dedmon, C.Martin, Yurtseven, Vincent, and Guy are playing much better in Miami then they would elsewhere and it's why I have a lot of faith in Oladipo in Miami. FO and head coach stability is huge for a franchise and Miami is one of the few franchises that understands this.


I'm just seeing a weird scapegoat dynamic emerging with Heat fans relating to Yurt. It seems to mostly occur with fans that are invested in supporting specific players moreso than the team. I legit saw multiple people on other forum devaluing Yurt's rebounding because he's just "stealing them from his teammates". As if a crashing guard has some sort of claim to rebounds in the center's domain.

Yes he's a rookie that has a lot to improve upon still. The raw product and skillset is there and it is valuable. Let's have a little patience and perspective.

I'm not putting this all on you as you're more knowledgeable than many of those commenting on other platforms lamenting Yurt's poor perimeter defense and things of the sort. People don't understand that he's not out there to replicate Bam's defense. There are schematic differences as to how we play depending on the big man on the floor.

The fact that most of what Yurt needs to improve upon is understanding schemes and context around him is nothing but encouraging to me. He seems ready to work and learn. This is the opportunity for him to go through the learning experience/growing pains and become a potentially valuable power rotation player that can help us keep the size, space claiming, screening, and rebounding on the floor for 48 minutes. If he unlocks that 3 ball we could see a future where he pairs with Bam. To me, it's exciting to invest in that prospect.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#391 » by AirP. » Thu Jan 6, 2022 4:17 pm

greg4012 wrote:
Spoiler:
AirP. wrote:
greg4012 wrote:
And blocked the shot

Sure he's talented, there's no doubt about that to me but he doesn't understand the team aspect things, he's often out of position/missing assignments and his communications with his teammates which ends up hurting the team or making other players look bad. What we are seeing with Yurtseven and Dedmon is that a legit sized center who stays closer to the basket on this roster can really do. What Miami can't do is allow the bad slide just because of the outcome is positive, that's how you stunt the growth of a player.

Spolestra is special, he usually gets the most out of his players and just in the short time I've followed this team, I've seen a lot of "good" players leave Miami and just not be nearly as good elsewhere. Richardson, Winslow, Whiteside, J.Johnson, T.Johnson, M.Leonard, and D.Waiters. Currently I think players like Butler, Bam, Robinson, Herro, Strus, Dedmon, C.Martin, Yurtseven, Vincent, and Guy are playing much better in Miami then they would elsewhere and it's why I have a lot of faith in Oladipo in Miami. FO and head coach stability is huge for a franchise and Miami is one of the few franchises that understands this.


I'm just seeing a weird scapegoat dynamic emerging with Heat fans relating to Yurt. It seems to mostly occur with fans that are invested in supporting specific players moreso than the team. I legit saw multiple people on other forum devaluing Yurt's rebounding because he's just "stealing them from his teammates". As if a crashing guard has some sort of claim to rebounds in the center's domain.

Yes he's a rookie that has a lot to improve upon still. The raw product and skillset is there and it is valuable. Let's have a little patience and perspective.

I'm not putting this all on you as you're more knowledgeable than many of those commenting on other platforms lamenting Yurt's poor perimeter defense and things of the sort. People don't understand that he's not out there to replicate Bam's defense. There are schematic differences as to how we play depending on the big man on the floor.

The fact that most of what Yurt needs to improve upon is understanding schemes and context around him is nothing but encouraging to me. He seems ready to work and learn. This is the opportunity for him to go through the learning experience/growing pains and become a potentially valuable power rotation player that can help us keep the size, space claiming, screening, and rebounding on the floor for 48 minutes. If he unlocks that 3 ball we could see a future where he pairs with Bam. To me, it's exciting to invest in that prospect.

I don't see Yurtseven and Bam playing together anytime soon. The reason why Bam is loved is because of his ability to play center and switch onto basically anyone allowing the whole team on the court to switch at anytime. If Miami puts a big next to Bam that switchable defense dramatically changes, it's why Miami drafted Precious last year, not to play with Bam but to allow that type of defense to happen when Bam is on the bench but Dedmon's success off the bench I believe made them rethink staying small all game. Now, on the offensive end if a big plays alongside Bam, what's their roles on offense? Bam doesn't have 3pt range, Yurtseven isn't a good 3pt shooter so you get a packed in defense, the driving lanes to the basket start disappearing, the parameter defenders can play tighter knowing that if they get beat they may have a big near the basket who may be able to contest the shot.

I myself wouldn't build this team around Bam at center and small ball 4s but it's pretty apparent that's the direction this organization has taken and was fine giving him a max contract to continue down that road. Bam has the skill to be a great 2 way player, he just doesn't have the offensive mindset and that's not something that is easily changed, you can push a guy to be a scorer for a few games, but they're just going to go back to their old self once no longer pushed or the pushing is tuned out.

Basically, just don't be surprised if Yurtseven only backups Bam for the next x amount of years, it'll have to be a change of philosophy to make them play together which could tank Bam's value to the team.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#392 » by greg4012 » Thu Jan 6, 2022 5:06 pm

AirP. wrote:
greg4012 wrote:
Spoiler:
AirP. wrote:Sure he's talented, there's no doubt about that to me but he doesn't understand the team aspect things, he's often out of position/missing assignments and his communications with his teammates which ends up hurting the team or making other players look bad. What we are seeing with Yurtseven and Dedmon is that a legit sized center who stays closer to the basket on this roster can really do. What Miami can't do is allow the bad slide just because of the outcome is positive, that's how you stunt the growth of a player.

Spolestra is special, he usually gets the most out of his players and just in the short time I've followed this team, I've seen a lot of "good" players leave Miami and just not be nearly as good elsewhere. Richardson, Winslow, Whiteside, J.Johnson, T.Johnson, M.Leonard, and D.Waiters. Currently I think players like Butler, Bam, Robinson, Herro, Strus, Dedmon, C.Martin, Yurtseven, Vincent, and Guy are playing much better in Miami then they would elsewhere and it's why I have a lot of faith in Oladipo in Miami. FO and head coach stability is huge for a franchise and Miami is one of the few franchises that understands this.


I'm just seeing a weird scapegoat dynamic emerging with Heat fans relating to Yurt. It seems to mostly occur with fans that are invested in supporting specific players moreso than the team. I legit saw multiple people on other forum devaluing Yurt's rebounding because he's just "stealing them from his teammates". As if a crashing guard has some sort of claim to rebounds in the center's domain.

Yes he's a rookie that has a lot to improve upon still. The raw product and skillset is there and it is valuable. Let's have a little patience and perspective.

I'm not putting this all on you as you're more knowledgeable than many of those commenting on other platforms lamenting Yurt's poor perimeter defense and things of the sort. People don't understand that he's not out there to replicate Bam's defense. There are schematic differences as to how we play depending on the big man on the floor.

The fact that most of what Yurt needs to improve upon is understanding schemes and context around him is nothing but encouraging to me. He seems ready to work and learn. This is the opportunity for him to go through the learning experience/growing pains and become a potentially valuable power rotation player that can help us keep the size, space claiming, screening, and rebounding on the floor for 48 minutes. If he unlocks that 3 ball we could see a future where he pairs with Bam. To me, it's exciting to invest in that prospect.

I don't see Yurtseven and Bam playing together anytime soon. The reason why Bam is loved is because of his ability to play center and switch onto basically anyone allowing the whole team on the court to switch at anytime. If Miami puts a big next to Bam that switchable defense dramatically changes, it's why Miami drafted Precious last year, not to play with Bam but to allow that type of defense to happen when Bam is on the bench but Dedmon's success off the bench I believe made them rethink staying small all game. Now, on the offensive end if a big plays alongside Bam, what's their roles on offense? Bam doesn't have 3pt range, Yurtseven isn't a good 3pt shooter so you get a packed in defense, the driving lanes to the basket start disappearing, the parameter defenders can play tighter knowing that if they get beat they may have a big near the basket who may be able to contest the shot.

I myself wouldn't build this team around Bam at center and small ball 4s but it's pretty apparent that's the direction this organization has taken and was fine giving him a max contract to continue down that road. Bam has the skill to be a great 2 way player, he just doesn't have the offensive mindset and that's not something that is easily changed, you can push a guy to be a scorer for a few games, but they're just going to go back to their old self once no longer pushed or the pushing is tuned out.

Basically, just don't be surprised if Yurtseven only backups Bam for the next x amount of years, it'll have to be a change of philosophy to make them play together which could tank Bam's value to the team.


I don't see it happening this season (if so, just experimentally). But I see it as a very viable OPTION to have in the near term future if Yurt continues to develop. I'm definitely not expecting the Heat to build around it as I know they love the Bam at center switch everything mode (it aligns pretty well with playoff ball).

But, from the get go I saw Yurt's skillset and harkened back to the benefit of starting games or having spurts with Bam and Meyers together in the frontcourt. If you show that you have the option and turn to it for stretches throughout the game, it dissuades teams from building entire game plans to exploit lack of size and overswitching. Just a dose of functional size per game is often enough to complement and accentuate the benefit of Bam ball.

I think Yurt can become a capable open perimeter shooter (a la Meyers) and has some more in his offensive arsenal. Meyers contributions were stretching the floor, setting great screens, knowing team defense (to mitigate his slow feet), and just being big AF out there. If Yurt can unlock open perimeter shooting, then I think he already contributes more than Meyers on offense (strong screener, more interior game, better rebounder). IMO Yurt has upside to be a better man defender and rim protector. His big deficiency on defense currently is understanding and operating within the team defense. I want Miami to invest in him getting up to speed there.

If we have a backup center that can work well in his spot minutes and also potentially allow us to size up for stretches of games with Bam then we can really maximize Bam ball IMO.

DISCLAIMER: throughout the 2020 season I was one of the few pushing back against those overrating Meyers as a player and his impact, but there's still a function for a complementary big to operate for stretches next to Bam to counter what teams want to exploit. Unless Myles Turner or Brook Lopez walk through the door, I think this Yurt experiment is as good as most options.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#393 » by AirP. » Thu Jan 6, 2022 5:42 pm

greg4012 wrote:I don't see it happening this season (if so, just experimentally). But I see it as a very viable OPTION to have in the near term future if Yurt continues to develop. I'm definitely not expecting the Heat to build around it as I know they love the Bam at center switch everything mode (it aligns pretty well with playoff ball).

Option yes, but I doubt the team goes that way. Look at it how that changes the team, Bam's rebounding numbers drop, some of the easy baskets around the rim disappear for Bam, Bam ends up being an even worse value on a max contract. To consider playing Bam with a center means to also consider trading him. He'd be a horrible value on a max contract.

But, from the get go I saw Yurt's skillset and harkened back to the benefit of starting games or having spurts with Bam and Meyers together in the frontcourt. If you show that you have the option and turn to it for stretches throughout the game, it dissuades teams from building entire game plans to exploit lack of size and overswitching. Just a dose of functional size per game is often enough to complement and accentuate the benefit of Bam ball.

I think Yurt can become a capable open perimeter shooter (a la Meyers) and has some more in his offensive arsenal. Meyers contributions were stretching the floor, setting great screens, knowing team defense (to mitigate his slow feet), and just being big AF out there. If Yurt can unlock open perimeter shooting, then I think he already contributes more than Meyers on offense (strong screener, more interior game, better rebounder). IMO Yurt has upside to be a better man defender and rim protector. His big deficiency on defense currently is understanding and operating within the team defense. I want Miami to invest in him getting up to speed there.


You really need to visualize what Yurtseven and Bam end up being on the offensive end, teams will beg Yurtseven to shoot 3s, not only will he probably not shoot at an efficient rate, it'll keep his big body away from the rebounds. Just expect Bam to not to be on the court with other bigs. If Miami even starts to consider this, they should also consider moving Bam in a package for a more impactful player next to a real center.

BTW, what you're talking about is what Indiana has been doing with Turner and Sabonis and it's not worked out all that good even though both players are very good and they have some other talented players on the team.

Seeing how well a below average starting centers (both Dedmon and Yurtseven) have done with Miami, maybe the organization can change their future plans on building this team. Maybe center is the position Miami can go cheap with and look to bring in another high level player on the wing? I still hope for Morey to decide it's more worth moving Embiid at full value then Simmons at a discount(just to get talent in return).
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#394 » by greg4012 » Thu Jan 6, 2022 6:04 pm

AirP. wrote:
greg4012 wrote:I don't see it happening this season (if so, just experimentally). But I see it as a very viable OPTION to have in the near term future if Yurt continues to develop. I'm definitely not expecting the Heat to build around it as I know they love the Bam at center switch everything mode (it aligns pretty well with playoff ball).

Option yes, but I doubt the team goes that way. Look at it how that changes the team, Bam's rebounding numbers drop, some of the easy baskets around the rim disappear for Bam, Bam ends up being an even worse value on a max contract. To consider playing Bam with a center means to also consider trading him. He'd be a horrible value on a max contract.

But, from the get go I saw Yurt's skillset and harkened back to the benefit of starting games or having spurts with Bam and Meyers together in the frontcourt. If you show that you have the option and turn to it for stretches throughout the game, it dissuades teams from building entire game plans to exploit lack of size and overswitching. Just a dose of functional size per game is often enough to complement and accentuate the benefit of Bam ball.

I think Yurt can become a capable open perimeter shooter (a la Meyers) and has some more in his offensive arsenal. Meyers contributions were stretching the floor, setting great screens, knowing team defense (to mitigate his slow feet), and just being big AF out there. If Yurt can unlock open perimeter shooting, then I think he already contributes more than Meyers on offense (strong screener, more interior game, better rebounder). IMO Yurt has upside to be a better man defender and rim protector. His big deficiency on defense currently is understanding and operating within the team defense. I want Miami to invest in him getting up to speed there.


You really need to visualize what Yurtseven and Bam end up being on the offensive end, teams will beg Yurtseven to shoot 3s, not only will he probably not shoot at an efficient rate, it'll keep his big body away from the rebounds. Just expect Bam to not to be on the court with other bigs. If Miami even starts to consider this, they should also consider moving Bam in a package for a more impactful player next to a real center.

BTW, what you're talking about is what Indiana has been doing with Turner and Sabonis and it's not worked out all that good even though both players are very good and they have some other talented players on the team.

Seeing how well a below average starting centers (both Dedmon and Yurtseven) have done with Miami, maybe the organization can change their future plans on building this team. Maybe center is the position Miami can go cheap with and look to bring in another high level player on the wing? I still hope for Morey to decide it's more worth moving Embiid at full value then Simmons at a discount(just to get talent in return).


False equivalency to equate to Indiana where those are foundational pieces that play 30+ mpg and the defensive fit is far worse.

I think ~10 minutes per game of Bam playing with another big man will not have an adverse affect on his stats but will actually unlock his ability to commit to his strengths. Just look at Yurt's G League, Summer League, and preseason. He is a shooter. Natural stroke. Giving him 2-3 OPEN looks a game sounds like a gift if he is focusing on his 3 ball.

Why is this discussion taken to an extreme of Yurt being a full time foundational piece? Weird logical fallacies.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#395 » by MHeat0279 » Thu Jan 6, 2022 6:33 pm

You can not teach size, like i said before the Heat should prioritize Yurt's development. If his offensive game continues developing and he gets better at defense, he will be a better and more valuable player than Adebayo.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#396 » by AirP. » Thu Jan 6, 2022 6:52 pm

greg4012 wrote:False equivalency to equate to Indiana where those are foundational pieces that play 30+ mpg and the defensive fit is far worse.

I think ~10 minutes per game of Bam playing with another big man will not have an adverse affect on his stats but will actually unlock his ability to commit to his strengths. Just look at Yurt's G League, Summer League, and preseason. He is a shooter. Natural stroke. Giving him 2-3 OPEN looks a game sounds like a gift if he is focusing on his 3 ball.

Why is this discussion taken to an extreme of Yurt being a full time foundational piece? Weird logical fallacies.

Because this board is all about putting a center next to Bam to get better rim protection and rebounding. I'd rather see a legit 5 vs a small ball 5 myself.

I'm not really sure how Yurtseven out at the 3pt line changes how Bam plays differently offensively vs a small ball 4 at the 3pt line. Defensively sure, but now you have a player who can't switch and gives the other team a big to hunt along with Robinson or Herro depending on who is in the game.

Miami used it's only 1st round pick for the next 2 seasons(at that point) to backup Bam and didn't even consider playing him with Bam, I'd have to guess the same thing will happen with Yurtseven and he didn't really cost anything.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#397 » by AirP. » Thu Jan 6, 2022 6:55 pm

MHeat0279 wrote:You can not teach size, like i said before the Heat should prioritize Yurt's development. If his offensive game continues developing and he gets better at defense, he will be a better and more valuable player than Adebayo.

Unless Bam changes his mindset to become a scorer utilizing his advantages as a small ball 5 I could see that possibly happening.
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#398 » by _GH0ST_ » Thu Jan 6, 2022 7:27 pm

AirP. wrote:not only will he probably not shoot at an efficient

How do you know he can't shoot efficiently? He was a better shooter than Duncan in the summer league lol
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Re: Game 40: Miami @ Portland, Jan 5, 2022, 10 PM, EST 

Post#399 » by AirP. » Thu Jan 6, 2022 9:07 pm

_GH0ST_ wrote:
AirP. wrote:not only will he probably not shoot at an efficient

How do you know he can't shoot efficiently? He was a better shooter than Duncan in the summer league lol

Because there hasn't been that many bigs in the NBA that shoot efficiently from 3pt range unless it's a very low volume of shots. There are currently 141 players making 1.5 3s a game and of those 14 are taller then 6'10'' so to me, odds are that at the NBA level you're not going to get an efficient shooting big.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=FG3M&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%206-10

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