Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Bucks deny Pistons to talk to Horst

[-Jragon-]

Before you say I'm moving the goalposts, which is your favorite saying maybe, understand that I think you and ShootingtheJ are making good enough points and showing enough statistical evidence to at least create reasonable doubt that offensively, with a solid offseason and high quality coach that the big 3 can figure out some plays that they can run together-- along with enough complex wrinkles to throw teams off. And maybe they will take turns playing off ball or whatever.

So let's dive into defense because I still see this as detrimental for a series.

[-Jragon-]

Keep them goal posts going man .

"Khris Middleton sucks with the ball in his hands!"
"Khris Middleton is only good with the ball in his hands!"

Unfortunately it's all the same. Him having the ball in his hand is what he needs.. but it doesn't make wins. New philosophy and direction please.

Good insight but why do you keep bringing up $Khash$ Midds when the analysis of Giannis is so on the mark. Needs the ball in his hands, needs all the touches, puts up the numbers but doesn't get series wins, keeps mistaking big numbers + superhuman play doesn't translate without the baseline team play that delivers wins game after game.

I think you make a good point in that we have 3 guys that all work off rhythm and having the ball a lot and that can be problematic. I hope you see the difference between GA and KM though. Giannis drags 2-4 players in the paint with him and now half his damn team is wide open, plus he's drawing fouls and getting the other team in foul trouble. KM isn't doing either one of those things, just live or die on them 2 pointers. I hope you secretly know that and just wanted to jump in some convo.. it's fine, it's the offseason and quiet enough.

[Baddy Chuck]

Let me point you to the other conundrum. You might not believe this or maybe you want to watch some tapes but Bud's defense with Jrue/Wes/GA/Donte/Brook/PJ/ Bledsoe/etc was designed to immediately switch onto KM's man off any penetration, screen, cut, etc to "help" KM and maybe even let him save his legs for offense. So we needed 4 great or
aggressive defenders around KM for that to work and that's fine there isn't anything wrong with that; we got a ring like that. He still defers like that on D and does a lot of pointing after plays instead of being aggressive and taking a man. Now, again, maybe you don't believe that or have to check back but for this discussion just go with me that there's some truth to it.

This is just straight up bull. We put Khris on weaker offensive players and basically never strayed from our better defenders staying true on their covers. His top 4 covers each series that playoffs were Duncan Robinson, Joe Harris, Kevin Huerter and Mikal Bridges with really not a soul even putting in work. He spent 25 minutes defending Robinson (shot 40%), compared to the next higher player at 3 minutes (Jrue). 50 minutes guarding Harris (shot 22%), next highest 20 minutes (Pat, Khris' bench replacement). 30 minutes guarding Huerter (shot 35%), Jrue at 15 minutes. 31 minutes guarding Bridges, Pat at 18. We even allowed him to be the second most used defender on Kevin Durant. You're just straight up making up **** to try to defend your trash takes. Acting like Bud's defensive scheme was some helping, switching masterpiece to cover weaker defenders is an absolute joke. It was about as rigid of a play your man, try to fight through screens and hope Brook and Giannis stop them behind you as it came.

[-Jragon-]

Let me point you to the other conundrum. You might not believe this or maybe you want to watch some tapes but Bud's defense with Jrue/Wes/GA/Donte/Brook/PJ/ Bledsoe/etc was designed to immediately switch onto KM's man off any penetration, screen, cut, etc to "help" KM and maybe even let him save his legs for offense. So we needed 4 great or
aggressive defenders around KM for that to work and that's fine there isn't anything wrong with that; we got a ring like that. He still defers like that on D and does a lot of pointing after plays instead of being aggressive and taking a man. Now, again, maybe you don't believe that or have to check back but for this discussion just go with me that there's some truth to it.

This is just straight up bull. We put Khris on weaker offensive players and basically never strayed from our better defenders staying true on their covers. His top 4 covers each series that playoffs were Duncan Robinson, Joe Harris, Kevin Huerter and Mikal Bridges with really not a soul even putting in work. He spent 25 minutes defending Robinson (shot 40%), compared to the next higher player at 3 minutes (Jrue). 50 minutes guarding Harris (shot 22%), next highest 20 minutes (Pat, Khris' bench replacement). 30 minutes guarding Huerter (shot 35%), Jrue at 15 minutes. 31 minutes guarding Bridges, Pat at 18. We even allowed him to be the second most used defender on Kevin Durant. You're just straight up making up **** to try to defend your trash takes.

Right... but still, we can't put both Dame and KM on their worst player. Who would that be on Boston? Wtf are Dame and KM covering on Boston right now?

Us putting KM on Durant was likely part of some specific strategy you aren't mentioning where if he put the ball down a double team came. Defense is more complex than simple %'s. This isn't like middle school where you just put some #'s down and the teacher marks it correct for participating.

Answer... how are we hiding both of them from being targeted in a series and who on Boston are they covering?

[-Jragon-]

I'll help. It won't work well. Google all the stats you want but ANY Boston starter or even some of their bench will target and score on those 2 at will. And it will be embarrassing.

Pick 1 of them (Dame) and surround him with 4 aggressive defenders and we'll be wearing rings again.

[Baddy Chuck]

Right... but still, we can't put both Dame and KM on their worst player. Who would that be on Boston? Wtf are Dame and KM covering on Boston right now?

Us putting KM on Durant was likely part of some specific strategy you aren't mentioning where if he put the ball down a double team came. Defense is more complex than simple %'s. This isn't like middle school where you just put some #'s down and the teacher marks it correct for participating.

Answer... how tf are we hiding both of them and who on Boston are they covering?

I mean real talk I'd put Dame on Jrue and Midds on Tatum. If they want to "attack" with Jrue I'll live with that all day long and Tatum isn't a particularly shifty scorer, but rather relies on length and footwork where Middleton is actually a pretty solid defender at guarding against, much like that series against the Nets/Durant. If you had another good wing defender, not Malik Beasley, I think you could also have Middleton on Derrick White who can put the ball down for straight line drives but isn't a particularly shifty player either and he'd largely just be hanging out at the perimeter. The Celtics offense wasn't a world beater going up against the likes of guys like Darius Garland, Mitchell, Struss, Levert, Wade etc I don't really think Dame/Midds are much (if at all) worse than that crew. Even against the Herro/Jovic crew Heat they weren't exactly pumping out consistent offensive displays.

I think this should be considered and thought over by management that even just on defense alone --- you honestly have to pick between Dame and KM. There's not a coach genius enough to hide 2 starters like that.

Also, I think this just isn't true. I think the more versatile defenders around them the less their weakness' shine and the less they have to do to be effective defenders. Guys like Kyrie and Luka right now are being praised for their defensive efforts (despite being pretty laughable defenders) and literally all their doing is putting in minimal work around a group that is helping contain.

Last season the Nuggets won a championship with Jamal Murray and MPJ, two atrocious defenders. Even before talking their other stars defensive shortcomings.

Warriors won a championship with a straight up run down Klay and Jordan Poole.

To me this idea that you can't have two lesser defender's idea that has sprouted up recently around here has like no evidence behind it. Obviously you need to find players to lessen the impact their weaknesses create but it's unquestionably doable and been done. Do I think you can do it surrounding them with Malik Beasley's and Bobby Portis' and the ever matchup dependent Brook? No, so yeah it would take some work there. But again, I think pretty much every Khris argument you make is hardly based in reality. Do I think we could trade him and improve the team? Maybe. Do I think he's actively hurting the team as much as you're conjuring up falsities to ensure, not a chance.

[-Jragon-]

I hope you're right! It probably depends how aggressive the defenders we get are. You could see Bev's impact right away and he's pretty small too. His energy also seemed to push the other guys too. A few more guys like that -- different sizes and positions would change things a lot.

[Fotis St]

I got no problem keeping Khris if there is not a clear upgrade deal, but starting Brook Lopez in 2025 is a no go for me.
I have been trading Brook immediately after winning the Ring cause I saw him being attacked and exploited by opponents teams. Even on our ring year. It has been so painful to see a group of men starting scrumble around trying to catch up the rotates cause we keep playing a dinosaur on drop defense and offensively cruising at the 3pt logo.
Disgusting , I can't stand it any more.

My honest opinion is to trade both Brook and Khris and get young players around Dame and Giannis.

I think the Big 3 era is over. Cause it seems that it is not a winning basketball since all 3 of them save energy on defense, suck and cannot overcome the fact that there is only one ball on offense. I am not talking about the Bucks only ... I think the game has shifted again on Big 2 and 4-5 role players. This helps the coach to set better defense and more simple offense.

You want to keep Khris and Brook ... they can be terrific backup scorers ... this is where we are unfortunately ... they are the best backup leaders we can find, surround them with young players and 2nd squad rocks too.
Do you remember when Khris was out this year, AJJ and Marjon played good and Beasley played out of this world offensively. The play is to convince Khris to buy into his role... Start him , early sub him out, and let him be our closer last 8 minutes.

[ShootingtheJ]

I'll help. It won't work well. Google all the stats you want but ANY Boston starter or even some of their bench will target and score on those 2 at will. And it will be embarrassing.

We played Boston this year. When we had our dudes, we absolutely shut them down. Dame and Khris were really good defensively, Beasley got picked on, but not enough to matter.

[RogerMurdock]

I like that three of them voted him to 1st team all-defense. So you think he's one of the top-five defensive players in the league AND he had a literally unprecedented offensive season, but 1st team All NBA? No thank you.

[raferfenix]

Doc fired Giannis’ personal coach. Now that the Greek Freak extended I don’t think we’d be as worried about trading Middleton if that’s the move.

Alternatively we could shift Khris to more small ball 4 (maybe even off the bench like Antawn Jamison) and make Giannis play more mins at the 5 like KG did later in his career.

I don’t buy that Khris can’t work in an offense with Dame and Giannis. Dude’s a killer.

The question is whether his value is so high that we are given an offer worth pulling the trigger on.

[emunney]

Whatever we do, and however Giannis feels about it, he is mentally stable and will give it a chance to play out before he does anything about it. It's not like we have to worry about him shutting down and not competing. He's going to let it rip if he's physically able.

That said, if we trade Middleton (would be shocked if we did, there's been zero indication that anybody wants to trade him, or that anybody external has the required level of interest), we better feel *really* good about what we're getting back for him.

[jakecronus8]

Pretty much since the moment we acquired Dame I've been advocating for 5 nickels for one quarter type trade for Khris. We have no bench and no defenders. Lets try to get those things.

[emunney]

Pretty much since the moment we acquired Dame I've been advocating for 5 nickels for one quarter type trade for Khris. We have no bench and no defenders. Lets try to get those things.

If you can only get nickels giving up quarters, your problems run far deeper than a lack of nickels.

[raferfenix]

That said, if we trade Middleton (would be shocked if we did, there's been zero indication that anybody wants to trade him, or that anybody external has the required level of interest), we better feel *really* good about what we're getting back for him.

Sure. But there weren’t any explicit Jrue rumors until he was dealt either (caveat that his salary most likely would have been required if we were serious about Beal).

Same with Brook.

Bobby’s the only core guy who clearly has been in trade talks.

But that also might be due to how Khris and BroLo’s contract and injury situations made dealing them earlier way less advantageous than it would be now.

[ShootingtheJ]

Pretty much since the moment we acquired Dame I've been advocating for 5 nickels for one quarter type trade for Khris. We have no bench and no defenders. Lets try to get those things.

That's not the only avenue to get those things. A multi team deal including Bobby and #23 could net us a serious defender. Our youngsters also can improve our defense.

[emunney]

That said, if we trade Middleton (would be shocked if we did, there's been zero indication that anybody wants to trade him, or that anybody external has the required level of interest), we better feel *really* good about what we're getting back for him.

Sure. But there weren’t any explicit Jrue rumors until he was dealt either (caveat that his salary most likely would have been required if we were serious about Beal).

Same with Brook.

Bobby’s the only core guy who clearly has been in trade talks.

But that also might be due to how Khris and BroLo’s contract and injury situations made dealing them earlier way less advantageous than it would be now.

Yes, that caveat you mentioned was a strong indication that we were open to trading Jrue. What the rumors were explicit about was Middleton not being a part of it.

[Ron Swanson]

I've yet to see any of these actual "Khris for a few solid but lesser players" deals though. I mean, Marcus Smart and Brandon Clarke is just the classic Khris-for-Spencer-Dinwiddie-and-Tim-Hardaway-Jr. lulz proposal circa 2021 with a new coat of paint slapped on it. Now like, Khris for Cam Johnson, DFS, and a 1st? Khris and Pat for CP3, Kuminga, and Moody? Khris for Jeff Green, Tari Eason, and Cam Whitmore? Khris for Terrence Mann, Norm Powell, and a 1st? Now we're at least talking.

[Daver]

I'll help. It won't work well. Google all the stats you want but ANY Boston starter or even some of their bench will target and score on those 2 at will. And it will be embarrassing.

We played Boston this year. When we had our dudes, we absolutely shut them down. Dame and Khris were really good defensively, Beasley got picked on, but not enough to matter.

We curb stomped them 2xs tbry beat us by 3 n 5 i think.I always felt tbe bucks were the only team from the eastern conference that could be the Cs.We did shut them down

[Daver]

Whatever we do, and however Giannis feels about it, he is mentally stable and will give it a chance to play out before he does anything about it. It's not like we have to worry about him shutting down and not competing. He's going to let it rip if he's physically able.

That said, if we trade Middleton (would be shocked if we did, there's been zero indication that anybody wants to trade him, or that anybody external has the required level of interest), we better feel *really* good about what we're getting back for him.

Why wouldnt you feel good with bringing it back team won fu... 49 games with the big 3 playing together only 12xs thia is a upper 50 win team easily if all 3 play.Hell yea lets bring the big 3 back.Dames been here 1 year n you already wanna break it up wow dude