Gary Woeful on WSSP: Redd/T-Mac

[blkout]

Conclusion: Redd is lost when he is not first offansive option while T-Mac still has Redd like stats even when he play off his C.

Have you looked at the stats? McGrady has a usage rate that is even higher than Redd's (which is high) and 5 higher than Yao. Yao might start the offense but when McGrady gets the ball he's generally going to get his. He's not a team player and he's certainly not the second option on that team, maybe he was supposed to be but the numbers don't reflect that at all.

[REDDzone]

Conclusion: Redd is lost when he is not first offansive option while T-Mac still has Redd like stats even when he play off his C.

Have you looked at the stats? McGrady has a usage rate that is even higher than Redd's (which is high) and 5 higher than Yao. Yao might start the offense but when McGrady gets the ball he's generally going to get his. He's not a team player and he's certainly not the second option on that team, maybe he was supposed to be but the numbers don't reflect that at all.

That isn't what I see when I watch Houston, I watch McGrady as their point-forward and their playmaker.

Usage rates include assists, right? And T-Mac averages more assists that Redd, which could explain the usage rate increase?

[blkout]

He's only averaging 1.5 assists per game more... I'm not 100% sure but without calculating it but I don't think that'd make much of a difference to the usage rate, especially since it's so much higher than Redd's.

Conclusion: Redd is lost when he is not first offansive option while T-Mac still has Redd like stats even when he play off his C.

T-Mac is also getting off 3 more shots per game than Yao. Is there anything particularly wrong with that? No, but you're making it sound like he's the second option or something.

[REDDzone]

T-Mac is also getting off 3 more shots per game than Yao. Is there anything particularly wrong with that? No, but you're making it sound like he's the second option or something.

Its just so contextual in my opinion though. Admittedly I haven't watched too many Rockets' games LATELY, however a possible explanation of that would be that teams double down or collpase on Yao and McGrady then is the beneficiary of those double teams by gaining more shots.

It just doesn't seem like Bogut/Redd work as well together. I notice a high correlation in Bogut/Mo good games, but not as high with Redd/Bogut (too lazy to calculate anything, take this with a grain of salt, it could very well be subjective).

I am not saying that everything I argued in this post in necessarily fact, but I am just trying to provide examples of how the context may or may not necessarily alter the statistics.

[blkout]

I am not saying that everything I argued in this post in necessarily fact, but I am just trying to provide examples of how the context may or may not necessarily alter the statistics.

Well the issue I have McGrady isn't the amount of shots he gets off, or his usage rate, it's that his production isn't much higher than Redd's despite having a noticeably higher usage rate. I mean for instance there's a difference of 3.5 in usg-r between Mo and Redd yet Redd beats him everywhere (by a fair margin) except assist ratio, between McGrady and Redd it's 4.4 but their numbers are fairly comparable across the board, only Redd is more efficient offensively.

That's my concern because obviously he wouldn't be getting that many touches with the Bucks (I would hope) but the likelihood is that his production would drop below what Redd was giving aswell.

[REDDzone]

I am not saying that everything I argued in this post in necessarily fact, but I am just trying to provide examples of how the context may or may not necessarily alter the statistics.

Well the issue I have McGrady isn't the amount of shots he gets off, or his usage rate, it's that his production isn't much higher than Redd's despite having a noticeably higher usage rate. I mean for instance there's a difference of 3.5 in usg-r between Mo and Redd yet Redd beats him everywhere (by a fair margin) except assist ratio, between McGrady and Redd it's 4.4 but their numbers are fairly comparable across the board, only Redd is more efficient offensively.

That's my concern because obviously he wouldn't be getting that many touches with the Bucks (I would hope) but the likelihood is that his production would drop below what Redd was giving aswell.

Interesting take on it. Factor that with McGrady's injury situation and I wouldn't do it if it included the pick.

[Sigra]

Admittedly I haven't watched too many Rockets' games LATELY, however a possible explanation of that would be that teams double down or collpase on Yao and McGrady then is the beneficiary of those double teams by gaining more shots.

Yup. Offense starts with Yao and T-Mac has no problem with that. These days Bucks offense start with Bogut and Redd does have problem with that. You can see that Redd's stats are not nearly as good as they were when our offense didn't start with Bogut.

There are guards who need green light to shot whenever they want in order to be good. Redd is one of those guys. Put him in system and he is lost. T-Mac doesn't have that problem.

[EastSideBucksFan]

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Yup. Offense starts with Yao and T-Mac has no problem with that. These days Bucks offense start with Bogut and Redd does have problem with that. You can see that Redd's stats are not nearly as good as they were when our offense didn't start with Bogut.

There are guards who need green light to shot whenever they want in order to be good. Redd is one of those guys. Put him in system and he is lost. T-Mac doesn't have that problem.

Then why is TMac in Houston not working and they are looking to move him for someone who has a "problem with that system" (Redd)?

[Sigra]

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Then why is TMac in Houston not working and they are looking to move him for someone who has a "problem with that system" (Redd)?

Injuries?

[EastSideBucksFan]

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Injuries?

So then why do we want him?


Because TMac is superior talent?


What does that matter if he can't stay on the floor?

[Sigra]

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So then why do we want him?


Because TMac is superior talent?


What does that matter if he can't stay on the floor?

Because we have to risk. That's how GS got Baron Davis, that's how Pistons got Rasheed, that's how Bulls got Rodman, that's how Nets got Kidd etc. etc.

You are not going to trade for perfect player because nobody gives him. You trade for player who has some kind of problem and you hope that he will not have that problem with you.

Also, Rockets wants to win now so they can't risk with T-Mac's injuries. We want to develop Bogut and Yi and T-Mac will help them much more than Redd. Injured T-Mac still help to develop Bogut and Yi more than healthy Redd who take their shots.

Also, we hope that Rockers doesn't know Redd as much as we do. We hope that Rockets doesn't know how much of amateur he really is. We hope that Rockets doesn't see him as SG version of Zack Randolph. After all, all we need is that Rockets GM has same opinion about Redd as some posters here

[Sigra]

And I forgot to say that Redd has one more year in his contract.

Also, Rockets may decide to trade T-Mac for Redd because of McGrady's injuries but that WILL be mistake. 60 games of T-Mac are worth more than 82 games from Redd

[raferfenix]

[quote="Sigra"][/quote]


Great points Sigra----I agree entirely that teams such as ours need to take these sort of risks and hope for the best. I also agree that Mcgrady's presence alone will help out Bogut and Yi's development much more than Redd's.

Furthermore, Mcgrady is just a much better fit here. We need his passing, versatility, and defense. Redd is a terrible fit next to Mo Williams and Bobby Simmons, but Mcgrady would fit next ot htem dramatically better. I also think Redd would be a great fit in Houston, as they really need more shooters to help space the floor for Yao.

[mpg]

I'm sure T-Mac would LOVE Milwaukee. Plus he's a bad boy. Kohl only likes wussy players. Not happening.

[blkout]

Because we have to risk. That's how GS got Baron Davis, that's how Pistons got Rasheed, that's how Bulls got Rodman, that's how Nets got Kidd etc. etc.

Aside from Baron Davis, how were any of those risks?

[Sigra]

Because we have to risk. That's how GS got Baron Davis, that's how Pistons got Rasheed, that's how Bulls got Rodman, that's how Nets got Kidd etc. etc.

Aside from Baron Davis, how were any of those risks?

All of these players had some problems and teams didn't want to trade for them. Only brave did and they are happy that they did.

Kidd was all red from beating his wife. Reputation of locker room cancer who fighted with 2 teamates over same girl. Never pass first round of playoffs. Fools gold they said. Oh and he couldn't shoot. Suns traded him to New Jersey to punish him actually.

Rodman was frash from suicide attempt. He just started color hair fashion. Had fights with teamates and refused to "save Robinson" all the time. He looked crazy and Spurs wanted to trade him for anything. And they did trade him for Will Perdue.

Sheed was leader of "portland jailblazers" and had reputation of todays Randolph if not worse. People didn't want that cancer in their team. It looked like he can't be coached, had legal problems, fights with teamates, and was leader in technical fouls and ejections. Pistons got him for garbage because that was his value around NBA.

[Newz]

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All of these players had some problems and teams didn't want to trade for them. Only brave did and they are happy that they did.

Kidd was all red from beating his wife. Reputation of locker room cancer who fighted with 2 teamates over same girl. Never pass first round of playoffs. Fools gold they said. Oh and he couldn't shoot. Suns traded him to New Jersey to punish him actually.

Rodman was frash from suicide attempt. He just started color hair fashion. Had fights with teamates and refused to "save Robinson" all the time. He looked crazy and Spurs wanted to trade him for anything. And they did trade him for Will Perdue.

Sheed was leader of "portland jailblazers" and had reputation of todays Randolph if not worse. People didn't want that cancer in their team. It looked like he can't be coached, had legal problems, fights with teamates, and was leader in technical fouls and ejections. Pistons got him for garbage because that was his value around NBA.

I don't think any of those teams traded a player of Redd's quality to get those guys, much less giving up a young prospect and a potential lottery pick as well.

It would be different is the Rockets were "getting rid of him for anything' and we gave them Simmons, CV and our 1st or something like that... Then pair McGrady with Redd, Mo, Yi and Bogut...

But just swapping Redd for McGrady doesn't make us much better at all... In fact it could easily make us worse since McGrady could get hurt (like he always does) for a long period of time, which would bring our record down.

Normally if your star gets hurt it isn't as big of a deal, because you get a high draft pick to help dramatically improve your team... But if he gets hurt and we finish 15-20 games under .500, guess what? Houston has our lottery pick.

It is a horrible deal if it is the Redd + CV + 1st for TMac + Wells and it is a horrible deal if it is Redd for T-Mac straight up IMO, due to his injury history and the fact T-Mac hasn't proven to be a winner at all in his career either.

McGrady can't get a team with Yao and solid role players to the second round... How is he supposed to get us there?

[blkout]

That's fair enough, but the difference is that McGrady's risk isn't because of his personality or whatever. He hasn't bashed any hookers or dyed his hair, the issue is mostly with his health... I can't imagine he's magically going to heal all his injuries over time, if it was just a personality flaw I'd be more inclined to give it a go but the injuries are always going to be an issue and as he gets older the Bucks could very well end up playing more without him than with.

[Kablooie]

McGrady is taking a lot of heat about being selfish and not involving his teammates this year (when he plays). You're pretty much just looking to trade Redd for a slightly better version of Redd that plays half the season. Yao has gone as far as to say that his team has more confidence with him out.

At least it isn't as insane as the Redd for AK deal some of you crazies suggested.