OT: Andrea Bargnani

midranger · Post #81 » by **midranger** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:42 am

Thats why we're a losing franchise and will be a losing franchise as long as Kohl and his cronies run things. Absolutely baffling.

Sigra · Post #82 » by **Sigra** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:55 am

paulpressey25 wrote: Essentially that team is Bosh and Jose driving the bus....

Don't forget Parker. Extreamly important member of that team. Can't be explained with words.

jerrod · Post #83 » by **jerrod** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:57 pm

i thought the wade thing was based on his knee not passing the physical

europa · Post #84 » by **europa** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:25 pm

Sigra wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Don't forget Parker. Extreamly important member of that team. Can't be explained with words.

Yup. And that was a Colangelo pickup.

And Grunfeld was the Bucks GM when Ford was drafted, not Harris.

g77g77 · Post #85 » by **g77g77** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:08 pm

The Raptors are considering bringing in some extra coaching help for struggling center Andrea Bargnani

http://torontosun.com/Sports/Basketball ... 4-sun.html

Epicurus · Post #86 » by **Epicurus** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:18 pm

Germane to this discussion, I believe, is the entry today from the "Wages of Wins" journal. It is about Colangelo and Bargnani. http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/ ... /#more-701

europa · Post #87 » by **europa** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:23 pm

Good stuff epi. I agree with the following:

Evaluating Colangelo

So how do we evaluate Colangelo, the 2005 and 2007 NBA Executive of the Year? Colangelo inherited Bosh and Calderon. And he acquired Bargnani and Kapono. But he also traded Charlie Villanuenva - Toronto

Epicurus · Post #88 » by **Epicurus** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:43 pm

I guess in this particular case, Calderon, the genius of Colangelo is keeping a player, seeing some hope for improvement. Or it might have just been luck (or the lack of a market).

europa · Post #89 » by **europa** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:39 pm

Epicurus wrote:I guess in this particular case, Calderon, the genius of Colangelo is keeping a player, seeing some hope for improvement. Or it might have just been luck (or the lack of a market).

I think it's more about luck. I don't think Colangelo should get any credit for Calderon developing the way he has. But I also think it's a mistake to list Calderon as a great player who Colangelo inherited or imply that was the case.

Post #90 » by **paulpressey25** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:47 pm

europa wrote:-= I think it's more about luck. I don't think Colangelo should get any credit for Calderon developing the way he has. But I also think it's a mistake to list Calderon as a great player who Colangelo inherited or imply that was the case.

In the end, we'll need to see what BC does the next two-years. He's surrounded Bosh with some good complimentary players and gotten the team to be a 45-win squad. But to be a great GM he's got to add that other star that takes the team to a consistent 50-game winner.

It looked like he had done that with Bargs, but that one isn't working out so well right now...hence this thread.

europa · Post #91 » by **europa** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:52 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

In the end, we'll need to see what BC does the next two-years. He's surrounded Bosh with some good complimentary players and gotten the team to be a 45-win squad. But to be a great GM he's got to add that other star that takes the team to a consistent 50-game winner.

It looked like he had done that with Bargs, but that one isn't working out so well right now...hence this thread.

And as I said, no GM is perfect. Every single GM who has ever lived has made mistakes of some kind. That's part of the job. The key is being able to build good teams consistently - which Colangelo has done - and show a keen insight into how to properly construct a good team - which Colangelo has done.

He inherited a great player, made a great trade to bring in another strong No. 2 talent last season in Ford and then made some great moves to add quality role players to surround them. He has had the good fortune of Calderon improving in ways nobody could have realistically predicted and that's been critical given Ford's status currently. The one thing he has yet to do is find that third critical piece to team with Bosh and Ford or Bosh and Calderon should Ford have to retire. Bargnani was thought to be that piece but clearly hasn't developed as expected. Despite that, his team was one of the best in the East last season and moving up the ranks again this season. That speaks volumes to the job Colangelo has done in my opinion.

Epicurus · Post #92 » by **Epicurus** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:26 pm

Off the top of my head, and thus feel free to correct, the Raptors did not do as well as the Bucks in '06. However, they were much better in '07 (albeit the Bucks had injuries beyond the pale) when the Bucks had no first rounder and the Raptors' first rounder was a bust (yes, Bargnani didn't do much last season, except in expectations building small bursts). Both team had the same coaches as in '06. Thus beyond the Bucks, injuries, which certainly didn't impact the Raptors improvement, the credit for the relative improvement would seem to be whomever brought in the complementary talent (and the blame for whomever didn't bring in either complementary talent or at least minimally decent replacements). Now that seems to continue into '08 with the Bucks unable to use the injury card. In sum, over the last two years, Colangelo >>>>>>>Harris.

europa · Post #93 » by **europa** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:32 pm

Epicurus wrote:Off the top of my head, and thus feel free to correct, the Raptors did not do as well as the Bucks in '06. However, they were much better in '07 (albeit the Bucks had injuries beyond the pale) when the Bucks had no first rounder and the Raptors' first rounder was a bust (yes, Bargnani didn't do much last season, except in expectations building small bursts). Both team had the same coaches as in '06. Thus beyond the Bucks, injuries, which certainly didn't impact the Raptors improvement, the credit for the relative improvement would seem to be whomever brought in the complementary talent (and the blame for whomever didn't bring in either complementary talent or at least minimally decent replacements). Now that seems to continue into '08 with the Bucks unable to use the injury card. In sum, over the last two years, Colangelo >>>>>>>Harris.

It isn't even that close.

The Bucks won 40 games and made the playoffs three seasons ago. The Raptors won 27 games and hit the lottery, ending up with the No. 1 pick (Bargnani). The Raptors improved not just because they had Bosh, but because of the strong pieces Colangelo brought in. They had Bosh before and teamed with a PG who put up big numbers (Mike James) and a player who finished second in the ROY voting (Villanueva). Yet that team stunk. It wasn't until Colangelo arrived, brought in a legit PG (Ford) and added a number of strong role players such as Parker, Garbajosa and even Rasho to an extent that the team improved. Calderon's improvement was a part of that as well.

It was Colangelo's vision which re-shaped the Raptors and paved the way for their success last season and the success they've enjoyed this season. That they are still playing well despite losing Ford and despite getting nothing from Bargnani and Kapono speaks even more to the work Colangelo has done.

Sigra · Post #94 » by **Sigra** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:34 pm

I wouldn't trade CV for Bargnani. Both are terrible defenders who love to shoot from outside. However CV is better rebounder and better inside scorer. CV is better basketball player period. I don't see any future in NBA for Bargs. I never did. CV can be good 6th man. Bargs has no future in NBA

Mags FTW · Post #95 » by **Mags FTW** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:55 am

He needs to develop a post game. And for a guy his size he rebounds for crap. Yi averages almost twice as many boards per game.