PGs - Field Goal Attempts Per Minute

[m1kenoff]

Haha... why did this thread have to turn into TJ bashing the minute i decided to read it?


First of all, Juan Dixon is a black hole at the PG position, worse than Derrick Martin. Secondly, TJs FGA/Minute is so high because when he plays, there are more offensive posessions/Minute. It isnt that he is a shoot first PG at all.


Furthermore, TJ was averaging 6.8 assists (same as Mo Williams) in 13 less minutes of playing time, which only proves my point.

[Chapter29]

What cracks me up is this all of a sudden perception of shoot first.

A good PG scores. There are very few Jason Kidd's in this world.

What a good floor general does is lead his team. TJ for example does that. Get the players involved at the right times. Good court vision and good set up skills is essential. Score when your teams offense sags or obvious opportunities present themselves.

If anyone believes for one minute that Mo Williams is a better floor general than TJ Ford they are nuts.

It isn't about scoring. Its about how you score. Isolations vs a 2 man game for example.

The assist statistic imo is one of the worst. For example, John Stockton got a ton of assists by simply handing the ball to the mailman and watching him just simply dominate whomever opposed him. Not that Stockton wasn't a great PG, because he was, but he got some of the easiest assists ever.

Creativity and setup skills are very important. As are vision and passing skills. Scoring helps set it up.

[jerrod]

-= original quote snipped =-




Hey mid, didn't you hear, TJ gave both of those guys some of his secret winner dust after his injury and bam, 16-10 is what followed.

is that what they're calling cocaine now?

[El Duderino]

If anyone believes for one minute that Mo Williams is a better floor general than TJ Ford they are nuts.

I don't don't know if this was directed at me or just a general point, but if it was, i've said numerous times that overall i think TJ is a better PG than Mo.

I only got involved in this because i just don't buy all the blame Mo catches for not being in the playoffs his past seasons, while Ford was with the Bucks. No context is ever brought in the debate, as if it's unimportant who a PG's teammates are or if half the team is watching games in suits because of injury.

It would be like if say TJ was healthy and the Raptors traded him to Minnesota and they missed the playoffs the next three years, is TJ no longer a "winner"? Should it just be ignored the Twolves talent is trash? If we then traded Mo to Cleveland and he spent the next three years in the playoffs, Mo then is a winner and TJ a loser? Ignore the context of their situations?

Did Jason Terry find magic winner dust the last few years in Dallas while Andre Miller took a huge crap after hearing he was headed from Denver to Philly and all his winner dust ended up getting flushed down the toilet?

[rilamann]

If anyone believes for one minute that Mo Williams is a better floor general than TJ Ford they are nuts.

I don't don't know if this was directed at me or just a general point, but if it was, i've said numerous times that overall i think TJ is a better PG than Mo.

I only got involved in this because i just don't buy all the blame Mo catches for not being in the playoffs his past seasons, while Ford was with the Bucks. No context is ever brought in the debate, as if it's unimportant who a PG's teammates are or if half the team is watching games in suits because of injury.

It would be like if say TJ was healthy and the Raptors traded him to Minnesota and they missed the playoffs the next three years, is TJ no longer a "winner"? Should it just be ignored the Twolves talent is trash? If we then traded Mo to Cleveland and he spent the next three years in the playoffs, Mo then is a winner and TJ a loser? Ignore the context of their situations?

Did Jason Terry find magic winner dust the last few years in Dallas while Andre Miller took a huge crap after hearing he was headed from Denver to Philly and all his winner dust ended up getting flushed down the toilet?

When a guy is consistient year after year you have to give him some credit.

Every year Tj has started at PG his team has made the playoffs,bottomline.You can chalk it up to good luck,bad luck,winning dust,playing with 4 leaf clovers in his shorts whatever.

I mean come on the guy has won and improved his teams everywhere hes been from high school,college and the NBA.

The guys is a winner and plays to win everynight.

Your probably one those guys who thinks that Robert Horry only hits big shots in the playoffs because hes been ''lucky'' or been in the right place at the right time year after year after year after year.

The thing about Tj Ford you obviously dont seem to understand is he...

MAKES HIS TEAMMATES BETTER.

So therefore Tj's positive impact on a team goes further than Tj's own numbers.

It seems to me you are simply look at Tj's numbers in relation to his impact on a teamand you can't do that with a player like Tj Ford.

His impact goes so much beyond the box score.

Thats why Tj was able to lead a 2004 Bucks squad that had less talent in 2005 and a lot less talent than it does now in 2008 into the playoffs while every year Mo has started we struggle to win 30 games.

Thats not realy a knock on Mo hes is just not a PG and doesnt have the ability like a Tj Ford does to consistiently make his teammates better on a nightly bases.

You act like Tj had all this great talent in 2004 then suddenly in 2005 when Mo had to start all that great talent dissapeared in thin air for Mo then Tj came back in 2006 and the winning dust got sprinkled on everyone and they became great players agian.Then Tj got traded and Mo had to start agian and uh oh all that great talent keeps dissapearing on poor Mo.

My point here is that thru 2004-2008 the Bucks have had bad/mediocre talent and I think we can agree on that.

The thing is Tj Ford as a PG was able to much more with that mediocre talent than Mo has been able to do as a PG.

Its like in football when great QB makes mediocre WR's look good.

Tj Ford can make bad/mediocre players around him productive.

Thats why Tj Ford's teams always make the playoffs and thats why if the Raptors traded him to the Wolves they might not be a playoff team but i'd bet they would be a better more competative team with Tj than they are now.

[El Duderino]

Every year Tj has started at PG his team has made the playoffs,bottomline.You can chalk it up to good luck,bad luck,winning dust,playing with 4 leaf clovers in his shorts whatever.

I didn't say it was pure luck, i said he had better talent to work with in his three years as a starter than Mo has had and it's a fact. You're the one who then called that luck.

2004/05 When you said Ford was leading the team to a 45-50 win pace before he got hurt, they were 28-27 with him and 13-14 with career backup D.Jones starting for TJ. It's not like the team took a dive without him.

His last year as a Buck we had the best and most healthy team we've had in years and limped to a 40-42 season. Zero chance that team makes the playoffs is you remove Magloire/Kukoc/Smith and healthy Simmons and insert what Mo has instead, Yi/CV/ gimpy Simmons and no Mo off the bench. Just common sense unless you want to ignore common sense.

Last year Mo had no chance with mass injuries

It seems to me you are simply look at Tj's numbers in relation to his impact on a teamand you can't do that with a player like Tj Ford.

No i don't, i just said Ford has had more to work with in his three years as a starter, which is true. You for whatever reason want to pretend that doesn't matter for NBA players. Andre Miller isn't missing the playoffs now because he suddenly sucks, his teammates just are worse.

You act like Tj had all this great talent in 2004 then suddenly in 2005 when Mo had to start all that great talent dissapeared in thin air for Mo then Tj came back in 2006 and the winning dust got sprinkled on everyone and they became great players agian.Then Tj got traded and Mo had to start agian and uh oh all that great talent keeps dissapearing on poor Mo.

Can you really sit there with a straight face and say the 2005/06 Bucks with TJ wasn't much better than what Mo has had the last two years?

TJ
Redd
Simmons---healthy
Bogut
Magloire

Bench--Mo/Kukoc/Joe Smith/Bell

2006/07==17-16 on a six game winning streak until half the team got hurt, so we decided to just lose games on purpose. Yea i'm sure TJ would have lead that injury ravaged team to the playoffs simply because he's a "winner".

This year

Mo
Redd
Simmons--he's now a gimp, unlike 05/06
Yi---Nice young talent, but clearly is overmatched right now
Bogut

Bench--No Mo/Ivey/Bell/CV

So you want me to buy that healthy 2005/06 team wasn't light years better than the injury ravaged one last year? That the the 05/06 team isn't much better than this years team? We have exactly THREE guys we can count on most nights to be productive, 05/06 easily had better players.

Bogut much more ready than Yi. Way way better bench, Mo/Kukoc/Smith/Bell vs CV/Ivey/Bell. Simmons was healthy/productive, now he can barely run. Way better rebounding team. That 05/06 team underachieved for all of TJ's makes teammates better skills.

My point here is that thru 2004-2008 the Bucks have had bad/mediocre talent and I think we can agree on that.

The thing is Tj Ford as a PG was able to much more with that mediocre talent than Mo has been able to do as a PG.

No question the talent has never been great, but it was better when TJ ran the Bucks and much better when Ford was a Raptor last year vs our MASH unit. I'm not saying anything more than that and it's true. Plus, in Mo's first year here, he wasn't ready for such a big role after Mike James proved to be a bust signing. For sure TJ entered the NBA more ready.

Thats why Tj Ford's teams always make the playoffs and thats why if the Raptors traded him to the Wolves they might not be a playoff team but i'd bet they would be a better more competative team with Tj than they are now.

Pretty much any PG would make them better given they are starting Telfair and he sucks big time. As for the Raptors, if TJ was the biggest key to turning them around instead replacing nine players with new/better ones, why are they 7-9 this year with Ford healthy and 16-10 with him watching games? Why aren't they sinking like a rock without their winner who makes their teammates better and instead playing much better?

BTW, i do think TJ is a better PG than Mo, just that many here over exagerate by how much and if Mo/TJ switched years they were our starting PG, this Ford got us to the playoffs each time and Mo didn't argument flat out wouldn't exist, that's why it's an empty argument. I also want Mo/Redd broken up and don't really care at all if Mo is the one sent packing so long as what we get in return makes us better long term. Mo is by no means a special player, but neither is Ford.

[paulpressey25]

I agree....I think Ford was a better PG....and he'd be better on this team than Mo.....but it wouldn't make a giant difference. Every day you watch the Raptors smoke someone like the Bucks tonight, you realize that Bosh is an elite first tier star in this league.

And I know some guys said, "well, Bosh isn't any better....he averaged close to 20/10 three years ago". Sure, Bosh has a better surrounding cast than he did a couple seasons ago, but Bosh has now learned how to play so much better.

There is a 20/10 like Zach Randolph that is meaningless....then there is the 20/10 Bosh has going now that is meaningful. If that makes sense. That's why I can't get all excited about Mo's 17/7 or Redds 24ppg.....they aren't that meaningful because the team is terrible. Somebody has to score points and get rebounds and assists on a bad team.....heck we saw that with Gadzuric at the tail end of the 2005 season when he got 30-35 minutes a night.