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My 3-Step Plan To Blow This Thing To Hell

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Post#41 » by Andrew34r » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:48 am

Chuck Diesel wrote:I also like Lowry a lot and suggested trading Villanueva for him last week. I have a couple blow up trades that I was working on as well. I realize it doesn't look like much right now, but this current team is 19-33.

First would be Lowry to Memphis for Villanueva.

Second-Redd to Denver for Nene, Najera and Linas Kleiza. Kleiza is a stud and Nene is a great guy to have backing up Yi and Bogut (when healthy). Najera is defensive depth who provides great energy.

Third was Maurice Williams, Bobby Simmons, Dan Gadzuric, David Noel and Awvee Storey to Cleveland for Sasha Pavlovic, Ira Newble, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall,Eric Snow and a first round pick. Pavlovic could be a nice player here now and in the future, and the rest of that junk from Cleveland only one year left on their deals after next season. We also get rid of most of our overpaid and problematic junk (who have more years remaining on their deals than Cleveland's junk)

This summer we add a high lotto pick and a late first rouder to a core of

Lowry, Bell, Sessions
Pavlovic, Mason, Ivey
Kleiza, Najera
Yi, Nene
Bogut, Nene, Voshkul

That would be a team full of young guys who play hard, play defense and play the right way. That team can grow together for the next decade. Plus, heading into the summer of 09 we have a ton of cap room to go out and make some noise in free agency.


I would do all those deals. The talent we are getting back may not be better and in some cases like Nene it would be a little risky but at least we would be getting some team players back in the deal. It would no longer be about individual stats it would be about team stats. Im all for that.
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Post#42 » by europa » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:59 am

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Yeah, I don't see Atlanta doing that one at all.


Interesting. I assumed the typical reaction would be that Mo is worth much more than Childress and the Bucks would be fools for even offering such a trade.

I'm surprised no one here has brought up going after Mike Miller and Kyle Lowry since both are pretty much being shopped Memphis as long as you take Brian Cardinal.


Lowry was part of my third step. I proposed a trade for Miller last week. I didn't include him on my list for this thread since I'd much rather have Childress and adding Maggette reduced the need for someone like Miller.
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Post#43 » by Fight the Tank » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:32 am

Chuck Diesel wrote:I also like Lowry a lot and suggested trading Villanueva for him last week. I have a couple blow up trades that I was working on as well. I realize it doesn't look like much right now, but this current team is 19-33.

First would be Lowry to Memphis for Villanueva.

Second-Redd to Denver for Nene, Najera and Linas Kleiza. Kleiza is a stud and Nene is a great guy to have backing up Yi and Bogut (when healthy). Najera is defensive depth who provides great energy.

Third was Maurice Williams, Bobby Simmons, Dan Gadzuric, David Noel and Awvee Storey to Cleveland for Sasha Pavlovic, Ira Newble, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall,Eric Snow and a first round pick. Pavlovic could be a nice player here now and in the future, and the rest of that junk from Cleveland only one year left on their deals after next season. We also get rid of most of our overpaid and problematic junk (who have more years remaining on their deals than Cleveland's junk)

This summer we add a high lotto pick and a late first rouder to a core of

Lowry, Bell, Sessions
Pavlovic, Mason, Ivey
Kleiza, Najera
Yi, Nene
Bogut, Nene, Voshkul

That would be a team full of young guys who play hard, play defense and play the right way. That team can grow together for the next decade. Plus, heading into the summer of 09 we have a ton of cap room to go out and make some noise in free agency.


Love these trades I just don't think Denver does it. They need guys like Kleiza and Najera. Redd would just take shots away from Melo and AI. The move I could see Denver making would be for Artest but I see Redd being a horrible fit with their team.
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Post#44 » by Andrew34r » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:49 am

I also want to add that I have saw a lot of Mike Miller trade possibilities but we should not even consider bringing him here unless he loses that feminine haircut of his.

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Post#45 » by REDDzone » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:06 am

The fact that he can defend in the back court means that he can grow his hair down to his feet for all I care.

He wouldn't really fit in though, long hair AND backcourt defense?
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Post#46 » by paulpressey25 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:10 am

Chuck Diesel wrote:First would be Lowry to Memphis for Villanueva.

Second-Redd to Denver for Nene, Najera and Linas Kleiza. .


I love both those deals but then would stop and not do the third deal.

That said, I can't see Denver making the Redd trade. Those guys need to shed salary not take on more. Najera expires and while Nene's contract is still large, they arguably need him as insurance against Camby and K-Mart being injured. Plus Kleiza is starting to become and untouchable type guy. Finally, I don't think Denver has enough basketballs going around for Iverson, Melo and Redd. But maybe George Karl would get emotional and go for this.

I think I'd focus on the CV/Lowry trade. That one makes the most sense for both teams. Then I'd do that Redd/Gadz for Hughes/Gooden/1st deal.

I'd hang onto Mo because I think right now he's fairly moveable and he's proving that he can be the elusive elite scorer.

I think a backcourt of Lowry, Hughes, Mo and Bell could be pretty good. And none of those guys outside of Mo need to score. Hughes gives you height. Lowry gives you a more pure point look.

Gooden essentially is the no-upside version of CV, but who gives us exactly what we need in a guy who can bang and consistently get 10/8 every night. He's good enough to either start or back up Yi.
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Post#47 » by LUKE23 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:18 am

Only reason I consider Gooden is because his deal ends after next season. The guy just isn't very good. Yi is just as good right now essentially, minus consistency.

I really don't see any upside with the Cavs deal though. You still take back a big contract for a much worse player in Hughes, who looks to be a contract player, and the Cavs first will be in the 20's.

I'd rather get more for Redd than that and I think we can.
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Post#48 » by paulpressey25 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:27 am

Remember that Gooden has essentially put up the same numbers as Bogut for much of his career:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... atsId=3602

Here are some positive Hollinger blurbs.....

Scouting report: Gooden's best asset isn't his scoring, but his rebounding. Despite a slender build, Gooden is a force on the glass because of his quick hops and a nose for the ball. Gooden had the sixth-best rebound rate among power forwards last season, and that was completely consistent with what he'd done the previous two campaigns.

Gooden can be a frustrating player because of his concentration lapses. He'll lose track of his man or forget a play and go the wrong way. He cemented this impression at the end of Game 5 of the Cleveland-Detroit series, when the Cavs had a four-point lead in the final seconds and you could see LeBron James screaming at Gooden during a timeout to stay on the floor. The first thing Gooden did? Take a flying leap at Rasheed Wallace while he was shooting a 3-pointer -- even though the only way Detroit could tie was by being fouled on a triple.

People tend to focus on Gooden's mental lapses, but he also makes a lot of positive plays at the defensive end. Gooden is very quick for his size and his ability to switch out on guards on screens or rotate off his man is one of the reasons the Cavs were the league's fourth-best defense last season. He's not as good in post defense, where his lack of strength becomes a factor, and he's a poor shot-blocker, but overall he's a solid defensive player.

2007-08 outlook: Gooden's name comes up in trade conversations every season, but it's tough to imagine Cleveland actually pulling the trigger. He has offensive skills that Anderson Varejao can't dream of, and his jumper makes him one of the few teammates who can create space for LeBron James to operate. That's why he's likely to remain the starter regardless of how many plays he forgets, although he may not always be on the court at the end.

At 26, Gooden should also be entering his prime seasons. One hopes he can combine the improved jumper with an off-the-dribble move or two, restore his declining free-throw rate and ascend into the upper half of the league's starting power forwards.
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Post#49 » by Chuck Diesel » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:24 am

If the reports of MO's antics at the team meeting are accurate (which I have no reason to believe they are not) I want him traded as soon as possible. What a piece of ****.
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Post#50 » by Newz » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:31 pm

Chuck Diesel wrote:If the reports of MO's antics at the team meeting are accurate (which I have no reason to believe they are not) I want him traded as soon as possible. What a piece of ****.


So you have no reason to believe they aren't true... But what reasons has he given you to believe that they are true? :roll:
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Post#51 » by LUKE23 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:37 pm

LukePliska wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



So you have no reason to believe they aren't true... But what reasons has he given you to believe that they are true? :roll:


Given that europa's comments have been confirmed in the past, I don't see any reason for him to lie.

And by the way, look at the realgm headlines, no one wants JO. Why? Oh yeah, because he's always hurt.
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Post#52 » by MajorDad » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:31 pm

would keeping Mo be a better alternative than to drafting one of the promising PGs in this upcoming draft and allowing him to start as a rookie? There are a lot of nice guards in this year's draft. i would jettison MO and his trash with the hope of replacing him with a guard who can actually play defense and be a better compliment to the existing players.

I think Mo proved this past week he can be a great SG. but we still lost. The problem with the Bucks' tea m meeting is if we know so much about it here, i have to believe other GMs also know about it and Mo's trade stock just went down the tubes as a lockeroom and team cancer.
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Post#53 » by jakecronus8 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:52 pm

Mo and Simmons to Miami for Jason Williams' contract, Zo's contract, and Dorell Wright.
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Post#54 » by L Gator » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:47 pm

I would do that in a second Jake
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Post#55 » by old skool » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:10 am

I think that Larry Harris will have a very difficult time getting top value - even decent value - for Bucks' players. The team's performance over the past four seasons makes that a difficult proposition.

I think that the biggest risk that the Bucks run is jettisoning their young players too soon. The pitfall of the youth movement in the NBA is that so many young players languish through their rookie contracts and blossom after moving on to other teams. T-Mac, Jermaine O'Neal, Chauncy Billups, Steve Nash. To a lesser degree, Ron Artest, Elton Brand.

The other problem is that they surround their good young players with other young players, and the team never develops. For years, that was the challenge facing the Clippers, and the Bulls. Until recently, the Hawks. To some extent the Grizzlies and T-Wolves, except for the rare season when those teams went deep into the playoffs.

Those teams don't make it out of their doldrums by making trades. More often than not, they progress by staying the course. Of course, staying the course is risky. Progress is not guaranteed. The team can remain sucky.

I think that the Bucks best chance for significant improvement is to keep the current core together and let them develop. I think that approach, as maddening as it may be, offers the best hope for POSSIBLY improving their talent level.

I would pursue trades, and make one if a clear winner can be found. But I would not trade a key young player (Bogut, Yi, Mo, and to some extent CV) unless the deal is clearly weighted in the Bucks favor.

Trading Redd is fools gold. One thing is nearly certain in the NBA - the team that trades away the best individual player in a given trade almost always loses out. The team receiving the best player almost always comes out ahead. I have no trouble trading Redd, but it should be for a player of comparable ability - not picks and cap space.

I would also forget about cap space. That never works. You cannot ignore contracts in the NBA, but the Bucks don't lose games because Gadzuric and Simmons have big contracts that don't expire for several years. They lose games because Gadz and Simmons are not playing better. It takes better players not better contracts.

Blowing up the roster cannot be done in a vaccuum. The team would be improved just by benching Yi. But the Bucks are committed to developing a young player who might become a star. Also, the Bucks have a rookie coach, learning on the fly. I don't think that Larry Krystkowiak is the coach to rebuild a team. I think that his hiring was a committment to developing the team steadily, with the players and coaches learning together.

Teams can improve their performance without improving their talent significantly. Look at the Hornets. They have made a major leap in the standings with a roster that could not perform near that level a year ago. Look at the Blazers. They turned it around in the flick of an eye- Nate McMillan said that he stopped coaching them so hard and just let them play - that's his explanation for their sudden turn around. Look at the Raptors of a year ago. They went from lottery to top of their division in a couple of months.

I would feel better about continuing to develop the young core if the Bucks had a veteran coach in place. But massive roster turnover for the sake of massive roster turnover, is pointless. Besides, it remains to be seen if the reasonable trades proposed by some people - like Europa at the top of this thread - can come to pass. There are too many wildcards in the mix with unpredictable players and agents involved.

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Post#56 » by ssssssnake » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:33 am

Everyone loves that GM who runs around, making trades, spending money but look what happens. The best way to build a team is just to do your best every off season. If you don't have a star or a good defensive team, you're pretty much screwed anyway. You can't go fix it immdiately, oppertunities to fix it only come up ever so often. You just have to sort of go with the flow, making sure not to make the big mistake and then when the oppertunity arises, you have to take it.

Anyway, this team is in bad shape because of a desperate GM and meddling owner. It's really too bad but it's not time to freak out.


We just have to keep developing Bogut and Yi. We have to hopefully hit huge on a draft pick and then as the big contracts expire, we have to make sure not to waste it and everything will be in order for success. For now though, we have 3 years (minimum) of being either bad or on the border of bad. The long term commitments are just too much to overcome.


I'm not one of the bigger posters here, but I've been saying this about LH for a while. I sort of gave up on this team when they resigned Mo to that big deal. They just don't know what it takes to win.
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Post#57 » by showtimesam » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:11 pm

jakecronus8 wrote:Mo and Simmons to Miami for Jason Williams' contract, Zo's contract, and Dorell Wright.


I would love it!

Dump some contracts and get a talented young guy back that can potentially solve our problems at the sf spot.
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Post#58 » by europa » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:17 pm

old skool wrote:
Trading Redd is fools gold. One thing is nearly certain in the NBA - the team that trades away the best individual player in a given trade almost always loses out. The team receiving the best player almost always comes out ahead. I have no trouble trading Redd, but it should be for a player of comparable ability - not picks and cap space.

I would also forget about cap space. That never works. You cannot ignore contracts in the NBA, but the Bucks don't lose games because Gadzuric and Simmons have big contracts that don't expire for several years. They lose games because Gadz and Simmons are not playing better. It takes better players not better contracts.


Cap space is one of the biggest myths in the game today. There was a great story in the Sporting News last year which quoted GMs around the league who said it's typically pointless given how the league is set up so teams keep their best players and the truly great ones rarely leave via free agency. And a team like the Bucks, stuck in a small market and with two decades of nearly entirely putrid basketball, has little chance to woo a major talent. So what's the point of having a massive amount of cap room? So you can spend it on players who won't play for you? Or so you can overpay the ones you believe are good? The latter is a very real danger and it's a big reason why the Bucks are stuck in the situation they are in.

That's one of the big reasons why I dislike the Redd for expirings and picks offers we see often. They don't help the team in any meaningful way and they serve only to trade Redd which might be the right approach to take, but only if the team clearly is better as a result. The argument that if you remove Redd's $15M and add two good players or even three doesn't fly very far. Take a good look at the Bucks' roster. If you're looking for about $15M to be divided up among other players than just Redd you could end up with:

Gadz - $6M
Dez - $5M
Voskuhl - $3M

Yea, that's so much better than Redd.

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