Bux/Sixers Post-Game

europa · Post #161 » by **europa** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:16 pm

I'd love to be wrong about him and if I am I'll happily admit it. However, this would be his third NBA season and the Bucks have nothing to show from the pick. Meanwhile, other teams have gotten value from players drafted after him.

Nowak008 · Post #162 » by **Nowak008** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:29 pm

So by age 20 if a player has accomplished nothing, he more then likely be a bust?

Nebula1 · Post #163 » by **Nebula1** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:30 pm

Sessions is a good pick.

europa · Post #164 » by **europa** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:33 pm

Nowak008 wrote:So by age 20 if a player has accomplished nothing, he more then likely be a bust?

If a player has been in the league for three seasons (or three potential seasons) and he's done nothing and players picked after him have made an impact then yes I'd say he was a bad pick. How long are we supposed to wait for Ilyasova to make an impact? Are we still waiting for Szewczyk?

Nowak008 · Post #165 » by **Nowak008** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:44 pm

europa wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

If a player has been in the league for three seasons (or three potential seasons) and he's done nothing and players picked after him have made an impact then yes I'd say he was a bad pick. How long are we supposed to wait for Ilyasova to make an impact? Are we still waiting for Szewczyk?

Why do you keep saying he has been in the league for 3 seasons? He hasn't.

europa · Post #166 » by **europa** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:47 pm

Nowak008 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Why do you keep saying he has been in the league for 3 seasons? He hasn't.

He was drafted three seasons ago. Other players drafted in the same year have had no trouble making an impact in that time. Ilyasova has done nothing. Maybe that will change in the future. I hope it does. But that won't change the fact the Bucks got three seasons of zip from him.

El Duderino · Post #167 » by **El Duderino** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:52 pm

The Bucks would still suck badly even if they had Ryan Gomes

zizek · Post #168 » by **zizek** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:52 pm

Ilyasova might yet be helping the Bucks when Gomes continues his trajectory out of of the league in a few years (it seems to me that players who peak at average tend to lose their spots on the bench to players with potential). That might make Ilyasova the better pick.

The evidence seems to be showing that that was the year to take advantage of the impending high school ban late in the draft. The four players taken after Ilyasova with the most promise now, if my understanding is correct, are the only four high schoolers taken after Ilyasova (Ellis, Louis Williams, Blatche and Amir Johnson), three of whom, IIRC (Ellis, Blatche and Williams) were talked about as first rounders for a while during the hype period. It's almost time for adherents to the proven college player theory at the Ilyasova pick to let the historical record show that that was the wrong time for it. There were two complete washouts (Green and Sanchez) among 3 first and six second round high schoolers taken in that draft.

http://nbadraft.net/2005.asp

When you are wedded to a theory like experienced American over foreign or high school or foreign because of historical averages or otherwise you can lose sight of the best opportunity available to you.

europa · Post #169 » by **europa** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:55 pm

The only theory I'm wedded to is the fact I like players who can play. Thus far, Gomes has shown he can play and be a solid NBA role player. Ilyasova hasn't fared as well and arguably has fared considerably worse.

And that's not taking into account the fact Ellis is better than both of them. I don't list him because he wasn't someone on my radar heading into that draft so to harp on him would be using the 20-20 hindsight GAD mentioned previously. I mention Gomes because I liked him a lot and believed he could be a solid role player - which is what he's proven to be - and that's something the Bucks clearly could use in my opinion.

Nowak008 · Post #170 » by **Nowak008** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:02 pm

europa wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

He was drafted three seasons ago. Other players drafted in the same year have had no trouble making an impact in that time. Ilyasova has done nothing. Maybe that will change in the future. I hope it does. But that won't change the fact the Bucks got three seasons of zip from him.

Aren't that what draft picks are for? If you want an impact soon, you are better off to trade the pick. Some take longer then others. Especially 18 (Had just turned 18 before the draft) year old foreigners who don't speak english.

europa · Post #171 » by **europa** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:05 pm

So I go back to my question - how long are the Bucks supposed to wait for Ilyasova?

Nowak008 · Post #172 » by **Nowak008** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:08 pm

europa wrote:So I go back to my question - how long are the Bucks supposed to wait for Ilyasova?

Couple more. Not sure to be honest. I just have a problem with you calling him a bust. How long do we wait for Bogut to start playing consistently?

zizek · Post #173 » by **zizek** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:10 pm

Some people seem to lean strongly towards experienced college players.

I don't know how Ilyasova is doing, but if Chuck D. is correct he may be showing some promise in AAAA ball at a similar age to Amir Johnson and Blatche who were minor leaguers last year and seem like they could be pretty good if they continue to improve. Based on that report it would not be that surprising to see Ilyasova equal or pass up Gomes in a couple years because Gomes may have peaked but Ilyasova if he's 20 probably hasn't. If Ilyasova is a role player down the road the pick might be vindicated to the Gomes level, but probably not to best opportunity level.

europa · Post #174 » by **europa** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:11 pm

Until Bogut gives us no reason to believe he can't improve. Given the significant improvements he's made this season I have no problem with that.

The Bucks have three years of nothing to show from Ilyasova. I'd be more inclined to have more belief in him if he was at least on the team doing something this season.

Chuck Diesel · Post #175 » by **Chuck Diesel** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:50 pm

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:
Chuck Diesel wrote:Or maybe Grunfeld should have taken Carlos Boozer instead of Dan Gadzuric in the second round of 2001, or maybe Harris should have traded T.J Ford for to the Celtics for the 16th and 20th picks and drafted David West and Josh Howard in 2003.

Ersan Ilyasova is not the reason this team is so bad.

I just don't like the whole game of, well, we could have traded down and wound up with the two best guys still available at that time. That's wonderful hindsight, but it is just that, hindsight. We could have just as easily ended up with Troy Bell and Dahntay Jones (the actual 16th and 20th picks of that draft). Dahntay Jones was picked there at the request of Jerry West, who many people have high regard for as a GM.

EVERY team in the first round passed on Josh Howard except for Dallas. He was the last pick. EVERY team passed on him. The Lakers took Brian Cook instead of Delfino, Barbosa, Howard, Kapono, Luke Walton (who they snagged anyway in the 2nd round), Steve Blake, Willie Green, Mo Williams, James Jones, and Kyle Korver. With the next pick, Joe Dumars took Delfino instead of Howard, Barbosa and those other guys mentioned (some of which would be preferable to Delfino)

The Spurs passed on Josh Howard with the 28th pick, but at least they took Barbosa. But then they traded him to the Suns for a future pick that ended up being David Lee, but they didn't have David Lee either because they traded that pick, along with the pick that ended up being Mardy Collins, Malik Rose, and cash in exchange for Nazr Mohammed and Jamison Brewer. And Nazr Mohammed ended up leaving as an unrestricted free agent to the Pistons.

Instead of doing those moves, wouldn't the Spurs have been smarter to keep Barbosa (or Josh Howard instead), use that Collins pick on Paul Milsap and keep him, and then keep Malik Rose? I mean, we can do this hindsight stuff ALL DAY even for the franchises that are considered to have good track records on this stuff.

I can go through every single team and make them look stupid in hindsight with their draft picks and trades involving draft picks. Hindsight is not appropriate. What has to be taken into account are the circumstances at the time, not the circumstances after the fact.
.

Yeah I was being sarcastic trying to throw the same hindsight that people are using to bash the Ersan pick and apply it to some of our other picks. My point was that I could say the same thing about some of our American picks. Ersan was projected as a higher draft pick than Gomes at the time and was a guy many people liked.

Noel and Markota were different stories.

Chuck Diesel · Post #176 » by **Chuck Diesel** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:59 pm

Europa-

Ersan's former D-league coach Joey Meyer thinks he is going to be a good NBA player.

D-league scouts not affiliated with the team like Ilyasova's game a lot think he is going to be a good player.

Spanish scouts think that he needs to get used to the Euroleague, but at only 20 they like him and think he's going to be a good player.

I like him and think he's going to be a good player.

europa · Post #177 » by **europa** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:00 pm

Chuck Diesel wrote:Europa-

Ersan's former D-league coach Joey Meyer thinks he is going to be a good NBA player.

D-league scouts not affiliated with the team like Ilyasova's game a lot think he is going to be a good player.

Spanish scouts think that he needs to get used to the Euroleague, but at only 20 they like him and think he's going to be a good player.

I like him and think he's going to be a good player.

I hope you're right, Chuck. I have a lot of respect for your opinion so I hope you realize that. I just was never enamored with the pick. Gomes was the guy I wanted. And as time has gone on I've become less enamored with it.

Chuck Diesel · Post #178 » by **Chuck Diesel** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:00 pm

europa wrote:So I go back to my question - how long are the Bucks supposed to wait for Ilyasova?

Give him another full year of starters minutes in Spain, and if he isn't ready to come back for the 09-10 season then you can tell me to brush the salt off my shoulders.