Why Does Kohl Trust the Lawyers?

[raferfenix]

Through Bucks reporting the Journal Sentinel could only dream of, we've learned about just how screwed up our team's power structure really is. But why is it like this way, and how has Kohl not held his lawyers accountable by now?

Does anyone know the history behind Kohl's trust of his Ron Walters et al? Why have they been the only constant in the management of our team for so long?

Also----is there anything they can do to actually make Kohl fire them or at least make them report to an actual basketball person? The team has gone so deep into the ditch that you'd think everyone would be held accountable, but that just doesn't seem to be the case. With it looking more and more likley that all establsihed and successful real basketball people will refuse to be a part of this management structure, I'm wondering when Kohl will actually change the hierarchy and fix that which has been the largest source of our team's woes for so long.

[trwi7]

Why Does Kohl Trust the Lawyers?

Because he's a dumbass.

[rilamann]

-= original quote snipped =-



Because he's a dumbass.

And here this entire time I thought Herb trusted them because Ron Walter and CO. where great basketball minds.Ron Walter's picture to me at least just screams ''great basketball mind'' and judging by his picture I wouldnt doubt he wasnt one hell of a player himself as well back in his day.

[ReddManBogieMan]

I think it is because he wants to bring in a third party, because he himself doesn't know the right or wrong decision when it comes to personal/contract moves.

I could see using them as a sounding board or if they are knowledgeable with how the Salary structure works to make suggestions, but the idea that they have a say in how the bucks make moves and actually have authority to talk to players about their contracts when that is the role of the guy they are paying to professionally make those calls is very VERY F'd UP!

Basically with the system which has been described means that the General manager only technically holds that title of being in charge of personal moves, but his decisions aren't final and has to listen to these people that are out of the loop of pro personal scouting and the formula it takes to put together a successful organization.

[paulpressey25]

Kohl doesn't trust the lawyers.....as a matter of fact, he's remarked at times how he misses Dan Kohl (his nephew and former assistant GM) because he felt Dan was the guy inside the organization he could most trust.

But he has this layer of guys beneath him with no clear power structure so that no one guy can make a mistake that Herb would view as costly.

Each guy working for Kohl only gets a small share of power so that divided up, none have enough individual power to "screw the pooch" so to speak. They check and balance each other.

Kohl's mindset is similar to a number of second and third generation family members who came up inside a prosperous family company. They are terribly afraid of losing what they and their family has worked for. So they micro-manage things to retain control.

I can't blame Herb for not wanting to get screwed over. He's invested a ton in the Bucks. But then he should at least step out from behind the curtain and admit he's the GM and quasi-coach as he's been the last 20-years save for that brief Karl/Grunfeld period.

[raferfenix]

Kohl doesn't trust the lawyers.....as a matter of fact, he's remarked at times how he misses Dan Kohl (his nephew and former assistant GM) because he felt Dan was the guy inside the organization he could most trust.

But he has this layer of guys beneath him with no clear power structure so that no one guy can make a mistake that Herb would view as costly.

Each guy working for Kohl only gets a small share of power so that divided up, none have enough individual power to "screw the pooch" so to speak. They check and balance each other.

Kohl's mindset is similar to a number of second and third generation family members who came up inside a prosperous family company. They are terribly afraid of losing what they and their family has worked for. So they micro-manage things to retain control.

I can't blame Herb for not wanting to get screwed over. He's invested a ton in the Bucks. But then he should at least step out from behind the curtain and admit he's the GM and quasi-coach as he's been the last 20-years save for that brief Karl/Grunfeld period.

This all makes sense, except for how could Herb Kohl possibly not view himself as having been screwed over at this point? Our salary cap situation is bad despite how he was convinced to pass on trading for great talent like marion/boozer becasue of salary cap issues. Now we have little talent and a mismash roster of players who hate eachother yet are highly paid without a ton of trade value.

I don't care if he wants multiple power players to ensure one guy's passions don't get the best of hte franchise, but the current guys serving as insulation have all clearly failed. Why does Ron Walter et. al. get a pass on this stuff if he doens't trust them, instead of him hiring a new team director in addition to a new GM?

[ReddManBogieMan]

Kohl doesn't trust the lawyers.....as a matter of fact, he's remarked at times how he misses Dan Kohl (his nephew and former assistant GM) because he felt Dan was the guy inside the organization he could most trust.

But he has this layer of guys beneath him with no clear power structure so that no one guy can make a mistake that Herb would view as costly.

Each guy working for Kohl only gets a small share of power so that divided up, none have enough individual power to "screw the pooch" so to speak. They check and balance each other.

Kohl's mindset is similar to a number of second and third generation family members who came up inside a prosperous family company. They are terribly afraid of losing what they and their family has worked for. So they micro-manage things to retain control.

I can't blame Herb for not wanting to get screwed over. He's invested a ton in the Bucks. But then he should at least step out from behind the curtain and admit he's the GM and quasi-coach as he's been the last 20-years save for that brief Karl/Grunfeld period.

Grand Admiral Dan from RealGM?

[xTitan]

What you said might be true PP but he obviously trusts his lawyers quite a bit because its there side he always ends up taking. I am guessing Herbie's lawyers have done him quite well in other areas of business and politics, that is why he trusts them to the extent he does.

[Andrew34r]

After years of bad advice and bad decisions in regards to his basketball team he not only trusts them but he gives them the free pass on all the bad decisions they have made. Is Herb that dumb to not look back and say wow we should have done the Boozer deal or maybe we should have done the Marion deal...sadly I think he is. People say Herb cares about winning and I think he does but I also think he cares a little too much about keeping his inner-circle around him no matter how much they screw up.

[raferfenix]

What you said might be true PP but he obviously trusts his lawyers quite a bit because its there side he always ends up taking. I am guessing Herbie's lawyers have done him quite well in other areas of business and politics, that is why he trusts them to the extent he does.

I bet you're entirely right---Herb trusts these guys for help they gave him in other areas. There's no possible way they gave him basketball advice to earn this kind of trust, as our team just hasn't been that good besides one year throughout kohl's enitre tenure.

[raferfenix]

After years of bad advice and bad decisions in regards to his basketball team he not only trusts them but he gives them the free pass on all the bad decisions they have made. Is Herb that dumb to not look back and say wow we should have done the Boozer deal or maybe we should have done the Marion deal...sadly I think he is. People say Herb cares about winning and I think he does but I also think he cares a little too much about keeping his inner-circle around him no matter how much they screw up.

Also very true. My question is what could these guys have possibly done to earn Kohl's trust of them like this---especially for something entirely outside their expertise like basketball.

You'd think Kohl would reassess the moves we've made the last few years and decide that everyone that has given him basketball advice needs to go...clearly that hasn't happened though. How bad would we possibly ahve to get for him to realize that these guys don't know sh*t about sh*t when it comes to basketball?

[MickeyDavis]

I'm not so sure that these guys actually give Kohl basketball advice. I think he comes up with most of it on his own. These guys are simply his enablers/yes men. Herb: "Ron, what do you think of this idea?". Ron:"Great idea Herb, you really know your basketball".

[raferfenix]

I'm not so sure that these guys actually give Kohl basketball advice. I think he comes up with most of it on his own. These guys are simply his enablers/yes men. Herb: "Ron, what do you think of this idea?". Ron:"Great idea Herb, you really know your basketball".

I bet this is the case to a large extent, however, GAD has often suggested that their judgement superceded Harris's. They might have been telling Kohl what he wanted to hear, but having it come from their mouths certainly seems like it's a big deal.

Now that we have hired Hammond, I think Kohl's trust of these fools is even more important to analyze. If it really is a yes-man situation like MD suggests, we coudl be in a whole lot of trouble if they are able to maneuver around Hammond to convince Kohl to follow his cheap-skate instincts.

[Legend_Returns]

It's because he's rich, his lawyers help him stay rich, and he, in turn, makes them rich.

The major reason he hired Hammond was because he saw that people were no longer happy with him trying to do things on the cheap, and were not showing up to games. He knows that he has to do something to generate optimism for next season.

At this point, it's not too clear what exactly motivated this move by the Senator, but I suspect that he was more concerned with selling tickets for next year than he is about having a winning team. The true measure of that should come this off-season when we see how much authority Hammond is given to make personnel moves.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

-= original quote snipped =-



I bet this is the case to a large extent, however, GAD has often suggested that their judgement superceded Harris's. They might have been telling Kohl what he wanted to hear, but having it come from their mouths certainly seems like it's a big deal.

Yeah, unfortunately it is far worse than just being yes men. They actually offer their opinions. Ron Walter especially is known for actually presenting Kohl with detailed cost-benefit analysis for a particular transaction.

That needs to stop. Ron Walter needs to stay out of it. So do John Steinmiller, Mike Burr, and everyone else.
If someone BELOW Hammond has an idea that they want Hammond to consider, and THEY want to give HAMMOND a cost-benefit analysis of a potential transaction, that's good. That is how things should work.

[Licensed to Il]

Again... I understand the paronoia here (that Kohl is still a meddler) but you guys can't overlook his pattern of paying top dollar for basketball people to run things, and then stepping in and taking over several years later before things turn to crap and the pattern repeats itself. Kohl paid big money to Dunleavy (a little before my time as a Bucks fan) and regardless of how that turned out it was a bold move at the time (Dunleavy had just taken the Lakers to the Finals) then turned to Chris Ford and a stable of no names. Then he got sick of the apathy and failure and brought in Grunfield and Karl (for record setting deals). Success followed, before the salary cap economics of the mid nineties (along with the "too much too soon" culture of max deals to anyone with any kind of potential) led to a skinking ship captained by Sam and Big Dog. Kohl surely thought "I could do just as good (missing the playoffs) and for cheaper". So he brought in a GM without the power to supercede him (Harris) and a trail of coaches with the authority and presence of sitcom-dads.

All this to say... history strongly suggests that Hammond has a two to three year honeymoon to call the shots... before the buzzards and geezers fly in...

[raferfenix]

Again... I understand the paronoia here (that Kohl is still a meddler) but you guys can't overlook his pattern of paying top dollar for basketball people to run things, and then stepping in and taking over several years later before things turn to crap and the pattern repeats itself. Kohl paid big money to Dunleavy (a little before my time as a Bucks fan) and regardless of how that turned out it was a bold move at the time (Dunleavy had just taken the Lakers to the Finals) then turned to Chris Ford and a stable of no names. Then he got sick of the apathy and failure and brought in Grunfield and Karl (for record setting deals). Success followed, before the salary cap economics of the mid nineties (along with the "too much too soon" culture of max deals to anyone with any kind of potential) led to a skinking ship captained by Sam and Big Dog. Kohl surely thought "I could do just as good (missing the playoffs) and for cheaper". So he brought in a GM without the power to supercede him (Harris) and a trail of coaches with the authority and presence of sitcom-dads.

All this to say... history strongly suggests that Hammond has a two to three year honeymoon to call the shots... before the buzzards and geezers fly in...

Kohl only torpedoed the Karl/Grunfeld tandem after that team completely exploded. If Hammond is able to build a consistent winner I doubt Kohl will step in like he did following the ouster of Karl/Grunfeld. If there are reports about Kohl meddling deeply with Grunfeld and Karl prior to the collapse I'd be more worried, but I'm not sure that was the case.

Plus, Kohl is real old now, so hopefully he'll only be owner a maximum of a couple of years anyways (or is that too wishful thinking)