Giannis v George

[Ayt]

Okay, stick to your beliefs that players need top of the rotation minutes their rookie year and I'll just stick to mine. I don't think it matters at all in the case of 18 year olds and or guys with limited experience, you guys obviously do. No one is changing their minds, so I'm done arguing. This is stupid, even for RealGM standards.

[ReasonablySober]

And LRMAM didn't develop at best, regressed at worst.

[Ayt]

And LRMAM didn't develop at best, regressed at worst.

He was a 2nd round pick with extremely limited upside. Him playing a lot of minutes early didn't lead to him never being able to stick a jumper, which was basically all he needed to add to become a much better NBA player. Him playing early also certainly didn't hold him back in any way. How would his game have developed differently had he played limited minutes as a rook?

I will grant you Baddy. He was given a gigantic leash from day 1. That is a problem for a headstrong PG. A better coach could have (almost certainly) reigned him in and refined him early on (to a certain degree, at least). Skiles just let him run wild because Skiles is a confirmed **** imbecile.

As for the other players, I think all of them would have become productive players more quickly with more playing time. Skiles **** all over Ersan and Sanders. They succeeded despite him.

[raferfenix]

Giannis' development should be prioritized this season.

Unfortunately though it appears like him getting DNP-CD's is more related to our quixotic attempt at 'winning now' as opposed to being part of a well thought out plan to help him. Giving the Greek Freak a shot every game -- even just for a few minutes -- seems undeniably worth it for his personal progress. If he is making mistakes, yank him, and then go over the game tape as a teaching tool.

In general the Bucks don't deserve the benefit of the doubt on this or whatever else. If Tobias Harris taught us anything, it's that they fully deserve every ounce of doubt they get.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums mobile app

[ReasonablySober]

And LRMAM didn't develop at best, regressed at worst.

He was a 2nd round pick with extremely limited upside. Him playing didn't lead to him never being able to stick a jumper, which was basically all he needed to add.

I'll grant you Baddy. He was given a gigantic leash from day 1. That is a problem for a headstrong PG. A better coach could have (almost certainly) reigned him in and refined him early on (to a certain degree, at least). Skiles just let him run wild because Skiles is a confirmed **** imbecile.

As for the other players, I think all of them would have become productive players more quickly with more meaningful playing time.

Okay, but they did develop into productive players. Sanders is really good defensively and Ersan is one of the two or three best stretch fours in the league. Henson's developed a low post game that makes me think he'll be a really good center at some point. I trust you guys saw the offseason workout vids Harris provided in between his rookie and sophomore year. He clearly worked hard to improve but the Bucks didn't know what they had. Which is entirely the point that I and others like emunney have been making and you yourself have already said in this thread, that dedicated players will put in the work anyway.

[El Duderino]

And LRMAM didn't develop at best, regressed at worst.

Luc was largely the same player for his first four seasons until knee troubles limited his ability to remain a lock down defender and being a lock down defender was the only plus skill he ever possessed.

If three years in college and six years in the NBA weren't enough time for Moute to develop a jump shot, sitting as a rookie and shooting jumpers after games wasn't going to accomplish it.

[Ayt]

Right. But it is based on just a handful of players over a very short period of time. Look at the history of the league.

****. Okay, last post.

Here is a list of rookies ages 18-19 to play 20 plus minutes a night.

Some success stories, right?

The list of players who never advanced or never amounted to anything more than bench fodder is a hell of a lot larger. That's the history of the league.

Here is the conversation. When did we start only talking about players 18-19?

Regardless, if you want to narrow it down to that age group with the Bucks, the sample becomes even more meaningless. You cut out LRMAM, Sanders, and Henson from your group.

On my side we have the success of Ilyasova, Sanders, Harris and likely Henson. Also on my side is the lack of development, and eventual regression, from Jennings and LRMAM.

The guys who sat their first year developed into legit, productive basketball players. Those that were thrust into the rotation during their rookie year struggled and didn't improve.

Do you hold the same view for rookies in general, or just for the Bucks?

Nope, every player is different. But the Bucks have a history of taking young, underdeveloped guys in the draft. The ones that have succeeded are the ones that sat. Jennings and LRMAM bombed.

So basically your view is based on a completely meaningless small sample.

I've qualified my position on this numerous times. Playing time over the course of a rookie season could be completely meaningless.

Right. But it is based on just a handful of players over a very short period of time. Look at the history of the league.

What happened with Baddy, Ersan, LRMAM, Sanders, etc. is irrelevant.

[emunney]

Which is entirely the point that I and others like emunney have been making and you yourself have already said in this thread, that dedicated players will put in the work anyway.

Yes, this is what I want to reinforce. There is no factor that's even close in importance to what the individual player does and what his capacity for improvement is.

The other thing I want to add is that guys who aren't playing do have opportunities for skill development during the season. They won't do as much strength and conditioning work. But particularly if a guy's not playing or only playing a little, if he wants to, he's absolutely putting in work.

[Max Green]

Looking at Yanni's minutes, other then the first game, every other game that he actually played in, he's played over 10 minutes. I think most agree he should be getting at least 10 minutes a night, possibly more in blowouts.

[ReasonablySober]

What an individual player does has nothing to do with his overall development? Gotcha, Ayt.

ETA: You're quick with that delete post button.

[Ayt]

What an individual player does has nothing to do with his overall development? Gotcha, Ayt.

ETA: You're quick with that delete post button.

I do sometimes delete posts after posting because I realize there are things I need to change to better make my point. If there is an ongoing discussion, I often choose to delete a post rather than edit because people could quote and respond to a post I intended to alter. That simply leads to confusion.

I didn't realize deleting a post within a minute or so of posting was so questionable.

I have a text recovery addon for Firefox. If you told me what I deleted, I'd happily repost it and tell you why I deleted it.

[Nebula1]

If a guy can play, then play him. This isn't a black/white issue since every guy is different. Bring guys along at an appropriate rate, but bring them along nonetheless.

I am of the firm belief that you can find your young players a couple minutes a night and long stretches of DNPs aren't productive regardless of how much work they are putting in behind the scenes. Nothing is the same as playing.

Bring guys along slowly, but play them if they can play. It's only basketball and the Bucks are terrible.


I guess the Bucks strategy of Moar Vets and DNPs for the rooks is now somehow, productive.


I don't care... Free Giannis

[Nebula1]

Giannis' development should be prioritized this season.

Unfortunately though it appears like him getting DNP-CD's is more related to our quixotic attempt at 'winning now' as opposed to being part of a well thought out plan to help him. Giving the Greek Freak a shot every game -- even just for a few minutes -- seems undeniably worth it for his personal progress. If he is making mistakes, yank him, and then go over the game tape as a teaching tool.

In general the Bucks don't deserve the benefit of the doubt on this or whatever else. If Tobias Harris taught us anything, it's that they fully deserve every ounce of doubt they get.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums mobile app

I agree. Hoopers who can play should play. Durant played as a young player as have countless others.

This notion of somehow "protecting" a young player is absurd, especially when the Bucks do it.

And I'll say again, nothing is the same as playing. Put in all the work you want off the floor, but nothing is the same as being on it. The best combination is to play, make mistakes, and work hard off the floor.

15-20 minutes per game for Giannis is more than reasonable and I'd like to see him start next season.

[Newz]

He has played in seven games and hasn't played all that much in those games. While I agree the physical talent is apparent... this thread reminds me a lot of the knee jerk reaction of a thread that was "Would you trade Brandon Jennings for Chris Paul?".

It's nice that we have a good, young player that we drafted in the middle of the first round. The odds are EXTREMELY high against him ever becoming a top 10 player in the NBA though.

[ampd]

If a guy can play, then play him. This isn't a black/white issue since every guy is different. Bring guys along at an appropriate rate, but bring them along nonetheless.

I am of the firm belief that you can find your young players a couple minutes a night and long stretches of DNPs aren't productive regardless of how much work they are putting in behind the scenes. Nothing is the same as playing.

Bring guys along slowly, but play them if they can play. It's only basketball and the Bucks are terrible.


I guess the Bucks strategy of Moar Vets and DNPs for the rooks is now somehow, productive.


I don't care... Free Giannis

Agree with all of this.

[SupremeHustle]

In '95, Isiah Thomas said if he would have drafted KG, he would have only played him in home games.

Seriously.

[emunney]

In '95, Isiah Thomas said if he would have drafted KG, he would have only played him in home games.

Seriously.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OccG7nc325w[/youtube]

[emunney]

Shawn Respert: Traded to Bucs

[SupremeHustle]

In '95, Isiah Thomas said if he would have drafted KG, he would have only played him in home games.

Seriously.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OccG7nc325w[/youtube]

+1 for my memory.

[theFireBlanket]

The occasional DNP after a solid 10-15 minute outing the previous game shouldn't come as a surprise.

Ease him into the season and by the time all the vets have mailed it in late in the year, Drew will have the excuse of giving him a full slate of starter's minutes. Everyone knew he'd be a 2-3 year project when we drafted him, no need to panic yet.

The DNP vs Portland was after a 4 day layoff in a home game, and it looks as though he's going to stay on the bench for another full game.

Re: it being false that Giannis hasn't received extensive minutes when everyone is healthy, I'm aware of the burn he's received. I was moreso pointing out Drew's recent pattern and it comes at a time when he's also trying to narrow his rotation.