Why isn't John Hammond fired?

[Kerb Hohl]

You guys, this is easy. Just name me the GMs that have drafted better than, say, 6 and on since 2008. I'll include that first year for Hammond despite having been on the job for two months.

Here are the picks:

1sts
Alexander
Jennings
Sanders
Harris
Henson
Antetokounmpo

2nds:
LRMAM
Meeks
Hobson
Gallon
Leuer
Lamb
Wolters

Just give the GM, the picks and the core of guys you'd take over that. If we get more than...eight?...you'll have convinced me Hammond isn't a great drafter.

A lot of those picks were good value.

I don't know. I know I ate a bit of crow on Tobias last year and I like that core if you could find an alpha but I still am not gushing over that group.

[ReasonablySober]

Very few GM's consistently draft in the mid-teens. Usually because they're good enough to get them beyond that point or they're fired. You're unnecessarily limiting the pool to GM vs GM because it doesn't fall in line with your narrative. Philly is a great comparison and have outdrafted the Bucks in similar draft positions over the same period Hammond has been here. Who cares if their GM changed. The draft position and results are what are important.

Who cares if the GM changed? They're the people responsible for the picks.

I really don't understand why it matters if a team changes GM in this discussion. It does not change the perception of how well Hammond has drafted relative to the rest of the league.

No one is arguing that it's an organizational thing. But it seems pretty damn obvious that if you want to paint a picture of how Hammond has done, you compare him to the rest of the league over a similar time frame.

I think your argument is insane, but whatever. Now if you're saying this is an organizational issue we're not talking Hammond anymore. Because it sounds like you're trying to compare Hammond to entire organizations.

Which is it?

[th87]

How does this sound?

"I really like Tobias Harris. So much so that I'm going to trade down to get him."

"I think Tobias can be an efficient scorer in this league. I covet him in the draft."

"I like Drew Gooden. I like Monta Ellis. I drafted Brandon Jennings."

If the guy understands basketball that well to know what Tobias would bring to the table, he wouldn't bring in the complete opposite in several other moves/picks.

I realize Billy Beane has more autonomy, but you don't see him bringing in Yuni Betancourt or even Mark Trumbo. He sticks to his guns in coveting OBP, slugging, for a while advanced defensive stats, and split stats. It's clear that he had a mindset and can apply it. I'm not sure that Hammond's mindset can be proven with the swath of moves he's made.

Couldn't all this be a function of too many cooks in the kitchen?

Yeah, it probably is.

But if John has gotten to that point, allowed it, or wasn't able to at least make some progress swimming upstream, then he's not going to be good here. Fire him. I totally get that the owner is meddling but the excuses go too far. Like, it's OK that he's crawled up under his blanket in the corner when every move has been made by Herb and co. or he was the one dumb enough to tell the ownership group to make the moves. Either route has sucks.

I also realize that Hammond only has so much latitude to do so but it seems like everything he has power to do or influence aside from a few mid round picks has been a massive failure

I hear you, but I don't think we have any idea of Hammond's aptitude. "His" relatively successful draft picks have been somewhat unique to his tenure, so it's easy to give him credit for it. Other aspects of his GMing have been largely the same as previous GMs, so it's more reasonable to blame the people who predate him.

From what we hear, Hammond is a supporter of the tank (GAD), and was upset about how the Tobias trade went down (Dano). That, to me, shows he somewhat understands and isn't a complete moron (not really high praise).

I've been a contractor with the government. Kohl has been part of the government, so if his organizational structure is at all similar to what I've seen, I'd bet that they have many different decision makers who are generally loud and opinionated, and only a few are actually knowledgeable. They probably have staff meetings, where they may loudly discuss player acquisition. Everyone gives their opinion, and the most persuasive case (to Kohl), will be the final decision. Or they'll vote on it, with non-basketball people weighing the same as actual basketball people. There may be people with good ideas who get drowned out. I'm thinking that some of these decisions Hammond wins, and some he doesn't. And that's why you get these disjointed moves - agendas are competing with one another, so there is no continuity in the team's direction.

[Wooderson]

You guys, this is easy. Just name me the GMs that have drafted better than, say, 6 and on since 2008. I'll include that first year for Hammond despite having been on the job for two months.

Here are the picks:

Spoiler:

1sts
Alexander
Jennings
Sanders
Harris
Henson
Antetokounmpo

2nds:
LRMAM
Meeks
Hobson
Gallon
Leuer
Lamb
Wolters

Just give the GM, the picks and the core of guys you'd take over that. If we get more than...eight?...you'll have convinced me Hammond isn't a great drafter.

I'll take these guys over Hammond just on drafting alone.

Bird
Presti
Buford
Ainge
Morey
Paxon
Olshey

Edit: And a bunch of other GMs of which we don't have enough evidence yet to compare. Looks to me like Hammond is roughly in the top 30-40%.

[Kerb Hohl]

Don't disagree with much of that th87. Good insight. I'm laughing at the thought of those meetings.

By the way, my brother and our mutual friend had a fairly unexpected ridiculous night in DC a year and a half ago. Not sure this was ever discussed.

[Wooderson]

I really don't understand why it matters if a team changes GM in this discussion. It does not change the perception of how well Hammond has drafted relative to the rest of the league.

No one is arguing that it's an organizational thing. But it seems pretty damn obvious that if you want to paint a picture of how Hammond has done, you compare him to the rest of the league over a similar time frame.

I think your argument is insane, but whatever. Now if you're saying this is an organizational issue we're not talking Hammond anymore. Because it sounds like you're trying to compare Hammond to entire organizations.

Which is it?

Did you even read my post? In the first line of the 2nd paragraph I said it's not an organization thing. But when comparing Hammond's drafting it makes sense to to do so simply because it gives you a broader parameter to compare to. The fact that the GM for Philly changed has no bearing on how Hammond performed, but still provides an example to compare to over the range of time Hammond was making decisions.

[ReasonablySober]

You guys, this is easy. Just name me the GMs that have drafted better than, say, 6 and on since 2008. I'll include that first year for Hammond despite having been on the job for two months.

Here are the picks:

Spoiler:

1sts
Alexander
Jennings
Sanders
Harris
Henson
Antetokounmpo

2nds:
LRMAM
Meeks
Hobson
Gallon
Leuer
Lamb
Wolters

Just give the GM, the picks and the core of guys you'd take over that. If we get more than...eight?...you'll have convinced me Hammond isn't a great drafter.

I'll take these guys over Hammond just on drafting alone.

Bird
Presti
Buford
Ainge
Morey
Paxon
Olshey

Edit: And a bunch of other GMs of which we don't have enough evidence yet to compare. Looks to me like Hammond is roughly in the top 30-40%.

You can't possibly be serious.

[ReasonablySober]

I really don't understand why it matters if a team changes GM in this discussion. It does not change the perception of how well Hammond has drafted relative to the rest of the league.

No one is arguing that it's an organizational thing. But it seems pretty damn obvious that if you want to paint a picture of how Hammond has done, you compare him to the rest of the league over a similar time frame.

I think your argument is insane, but whatever. Now if you're saying this is an organizational issue we're not talking Hammond anymore. Because it sounds like you're trying to compare Hammond to entire organizations.

Which is it?

Did you even read my post? In the first line of the 2nd paragraph I said it's not an organization thing. But when comparing Hammond's drafting it makes sense to to do so simply because it gives you a broader parameter to compare to. The fact that the GM for Philly changed has no bearing on how Hammond performed, but still provides an example to compare to over the range of time Hammond was making decisions.

The title of the thread Why isn't John Hammond fired?

I thought it might be a good idea to compare him to those who hold the same position.

[Wooderson]

I'll take these guys over Hammond just on drafting alone.

Bird
Presti
Buford
Ainge
Morey
Paxon
Olshey

Edit: And a bunch of other GMs of which we don't have enough evidence yet to compare. Looks to me like Hammond is roughly in the top 30-40%.

You can't possibly be serious.

Pick out who you have issue with and I'll go into further detail. Not going to write a report on every single GM and just listing players accurately analyze the situation.

[ReasonablySober]

Top of the list, let's go with Bird. I didn't realize he was the GM.

[th87]

Don't disagree with much of that th87. Good insight. I'm laughing at the thought of those meetings.

By the way, my brother and our mutual friend had a fairly unexpected ridiculous night in DC a year and a half ago. Not sure this was ever discussed.

Haha I remember hearing about this - I hung out with him afterwards, and he asked me if I knew Grendon Jennings. I was all kinds of confused with RealGM and Real Life colliding.

And those meetings were hilarity. For example, people would randomly learn a new word and try to throw it in conversation to sound smart (inappropriately).

[Wooderson]

The title of the thread Why isn't John Hammond fired?

I thought it might be a good idea to compare him to those who hold the same position.

Huh? We're discussing his drafting ability. Analyzing the haul the Bucks have gotten under Hammond relative to what other teams in the league have done seems pretty relevant.

If Hammond was the GM of any other team in the league and produced these types of results he'd likely have been fired already.

[Wooderson]

Top of the list, let's go with Bird. I didn't realize he was the GM.

Uh, he sure as hell had/has input over player personnel decisions. He's the President of Basketball OPs.

[ReasonablySober]

The title of the thread Why isn't John Hammond fired?

I thought it might be a good idea to compare him to those who hold the same position.

Huh? We're discussing his drafting ability. Analyzing the haul the Bucks have gotten under Hammond relative to what other teams in the league have done seems pretty relevant.

If Hammond was the GM of any other team in the league and produced these types of results he'd likely have been fired already.

Ahhh. Alright, now I finally get what you mean. You think Henson, Sanders, Giannis, Harris, LRMAM and Wolters were terrible picks. Okay, no problem. I disagree, but that's fine. I'm going to bed now.

[Wooderson]

Ahhh. Alright, now I finally get what you mean. You think Henson, Sanders, Giannis, Harris, LRMAM and Wolters were terrible picks. Okay, no problem. I disagree, but that's fine. I'm going to bed now.

Against, twisting what I'm saying for no good reason. I brought that up because not many GM's draft in the mid teens for 6+ years. Hammond is in a unique and difficult position under Kohl. That's why it makes sense to look at the haul of what he brought in over 6 years in the draft versus what other teams have done.

If you strictly go by individual GMs, then it's very difficult to compare because many have been fired and others hired over that timeframe. That much turnover makes it difficult to gauge how he's done relative to the rest of the league individually. And others have had the benefit of top picks or the disadvantage of only lower ones.

[ReasonablySober]

edit

[ReasonablySober]

Ahhh. Alright, now I finally get what you mean. You think Henson, Sanders, Giannis, Harris, LRMAM and Wolters were terrible picks. Okay, no problem. I disagree, but that's fine. I'm going to bed now.

Against, twisting what I'm saying for no good reason. I brought that up because not many GM's draft in the mid teens for 6+ years. Hammond is in a unique and difficult position under Kohl. That's why it makes sense to look at the haul of what he brought in over 6 years in the draft versus what other teams have done.

If you strictly go by individual GMs, then it's very difficult to compare because many have been fired and others hired over that timeframe. That much turnover makes it difficult to gauge how he's done relative to the rest of the league individually. And others have had the benefit of top picks or the disadvantage of only lower ones.

The best way to go about it imo is to analyze Hammond's draft results relative to the draft hauls other teams have received in the similar draft range. Either that or look back at how GMs have done historically with picks 8-19. But then you start comparing over eras and run into different problems. And that's it, I'm spent.

If you don't like the sample size then don't make the argument. I'm not twisting anything. Compare actual GM drafting track records or don't compare anything at all. A small sample size isn't my problem.

[ReasonablySober]

Alright, making this REALLY easy:

Wolters
Sanders
Harris
Antetokounmpo
Henson

What core are you taking over that?

Active GMs, picking six or later. This should be simple if Hammond is this terrible. Or even average.

[Wooderson]

Alright, making this REALLY easy:

Wolters
Sanders
Harris
Antetokounmpo
Henson

What core are you taking over that?

Active GMs, picking six or later. This should be simple if Hammond is this terrible. Or even average.

Where the hell did I say he was terrible or average? In fact, several times I said he was good and even put him in the top 3rd of the league in terms of drafting ability. I'll play the game though, if I don't have a list of GMs and their players tonight I will by tomorrow.

[cinematographer]

I spoke with my boss' boyfriend tonight, he's on hammonds' staff.

The win now mandate is all Kohl. Hammonds wants the young guys to play and Larry Drew is being stubborn and refusing to listen to what he's being told. He truly is the tank commander. That being said Kohl wants to make the playoffs still. Like this season still... They are going to wait until around the allstar break before making a move and deciding whether or not to go for it so i wouldnt worry about Asik just yet.. If they're within sniffing distance of the 8th seed though don't be shocked to see a young guy moved. Apparently last season the Hawks pulled out of the Smith trade literally 2 mins before the deadline bc they wanted our pick and we wanted to give them Henson. We pulled the Tobias trade which all parties, kohl and hammond both, believed would put them in the playoffs.

Kohl is the problem. Larry Drew is clueless which turns out to benefit us. Hammonds has his job bc he knows the young guys are the answer and all this win now **** keeps failing.

By the way, they know all about SaveOurBucks.com

A few things:

It sickens me that they thought they needed the Redick trade to get into the playoffs. Philadelphia, the 9th seed at the time, had one of the most difficult schedules remaining: road heavy, and they were a TERRIBLE road team. If the worry was Toronto or Detroit, well, that's just even worse, as they were further back with problems of their own.

That just sickens me. **** sickens me.

Larry Drew is being stubborn and refusing to listen to what he's being told. He truly is the tank commander.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What an ****. He is every bit as clueless as he looks. Fire him in April.

That being said Kohl wants to make the playoffs still. Like this season still... They are going to wait until around the allstar break before making a move

Whew. Alright. Drew gets his veterans back, we stop seeing potentially dangerous lineups for our win totals, get a nice Western Conference road trip, and Caron heroically drives our tank.

Whew.

Apparently last season the Hawks pulled out of the Smith trade literally 2 mins before the deadline bc they wanted our pick and we wanted to give them Henson.

This is the dumbest **** front office.

The dumbest **** front office. If they were a baseball front office, they'd think on base percentage is just a fad.

They were prepared to give up their last two draft picks for rentals.

This is the dumbest **** front office.