Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[fansinceforever]

Ignoring the fact that Middleton should've been moved long before he was for much better value.
Other than the ability to aggregate players in a trade, what other flexibility did we gain?

We're still ****.

Full MLE, aggregate players, more picks available to trade. Full MLE should be about 4yrs/60 million dollars. That’s a pretty damn good player.

It's a solid player. Nothing needle moving.

And won't that likely be used to to retain Brook, GTJ, KPJ? Or replace them?

[soboMP3]

WAT. Insanely worth it. I was bawling like a kid after the championship. I was almost bawling at the parade I witnessed in person. I have pictures of the championship run in my office facing me right now. Nothing will ever come close to that. Good Lord, awful take.

Good Lord what a stupid thing to say. It's subjective & people's personal experience. Some value the journey more than the destination, cuz the former's exponentially longer. If you could have both you'd take that obviously, but it's not the dilemma.

The Pistons won a 'ship. Then in part cuz they went all in they didn't win a playoff game for 15 yrs. That's a rough journey. We had 1 for 27 yrs. W/out creativity we'll be down bad again. 15 yrs from now, some perspectives would undoubtedly change. Unlike you though IDGAF others differed.

Insanity. I mean, you're welcome to your opinion and all but... the journey was 50 years (20 years of us bitching on this board) with a few decent contention periods, and then in the latest contention period of 5-7 years or whatever, and they finally won a championship. In this market, it probably will never happen again while we breath oxygen... I just can't fathom your thought process. My guess is you're the only one here with it. Apologies for finally winning one, lol.

:|

[Profound23]

Four games before you guys will be complaining about Portis again...but man we've missed his energy

[Profound23]

I feel like haslam could say the same exact thing with the Bucks, just insert Dame/Doc for Deshaun. These idiots are all about the "Big Swing" brand name players/coaches with zero clue what they are scouting/looking for to help their teams.

Read on Twitter

I just said the same exact thing today. There is some balance needed. For instance making a move like that for the Browns I want a QB with no skeletons in his closet. Making the move for the Bucks, I want a younger player or someone who plays both ends of the floor. Of course that player probably wouldn't have been available for Holiday and picks.

[Baddy Chuck]

The Pistons won a 'ship. Then in part cuz they went all in they didn't win a playoff game for 15 yrs.

Their championship run is not what limited their success after. Here's their 10 year window after contention.

I mean after their contention they still held pretty much every one of their picks.
2009 - 15th pick - Austin Daye
2010 - 7th pick - Greg Monroe
2011 - 8th pick - Brandon Knight
2012 - 9th pick - Andre Drummond
2013 - 8th pick - KCP
2015 - 8th pick - Stanley Johnson
2016 - 18th pick - Henry Ellenson
2017 - 12th pick - Luke Kennard
2019 - 15th pick - Sekou Doumbouya

Right out of contention they had ample money to spend in free agency and used it on
2009 - Ben Gordon, salary dumped with a first 2 years later
2009 - Charlie Villanueva
When that mess was over they went and did this
2013 - Josh Smith, waived 1 year later
2013 - Signed Brandon Jennings, shipping out Middleton and Knight in the process
2015 - Traded for Tobias Harris fresh off his large new deal
2017 - Gambled on Blake Griffin's health, got one good year out of him
2019 - Fresh off a 20 win season signed Jerami Grant to an enormous deal, who they gave up picks to dump 2 years later

[ShootingtheJ]

Ignoring the fact that Middleton should've been moved long before he was for much better value.
Other than the ability to aggregate players in a trade, what other flexibility did we gain?

We're still ****.

Full MLE, aggregate players, more picks available to trade. Full MLE should be about 4yrs/60 million dollars. That’s a pretty damn good player.

We accomplish the full MLE through Brooks ending contract. We do no get more picks available to trade, as we can only trade 1 of the 2031 or 2032 picks.

The only thing we accomplished new was being able to include cash in the Sims trade.

[raferfenix]

What Dame deals do we think we passed on at the deadline?

Yeah yeah hindsight’s 20/20 but at his age hanging onto that $60M contract of a guy who for a year and a half looked more like rich man’s Mo Williams than top 75 all time transcendent talent didn’t necessarily need to be the way to go.

[ShootingtheJ]

I’m not sure there ever was a great time to trade Khris.

This is the truth that a lot of people just aren't willing or able to accept.

Agree. The Bucks didn't need to deal Middleton to stay on top. The downfall of the Bucks was all the missed picks, free agency whiffs, and the lazy use of 2 way contracts. He's so many good players out there that were available for 2 ways deals, and worked their way up, but we continue to miss the opportunities.

[Bernman]

The Pistons won a 'ship. Then in part cuz they went all in they didn't win a playoff game for 15 yrs.

Their championship run is not what limited their success after. Here's their 10 year window after contention.

I mean after their contention they still held pretty much every one of their picks.
2009 - 15th pick - Austin Daye
2010 - 7th pick - Greg Monroe
2011 - 8th pick - Brandon Knight
2012 - 9th pick - Andre Drummond
2013 - 8th pick - KCP
2015 - 8th pick - Stanley Johnson
2016 - 18th pick - Henry Ellenson
2017 - 12th pick - Luke Kennard
2019 - 15th pick - Sekou Doumbouya

Right out of contention they had ample money to spend in free agency and used it on
2009 - Ben Gordon, salary dumped with a first 2 years later
2009 - Charlie Villanueva
When that mess was over they went and did this
2013 - Josh Smith, waived 1 year later
2013 - Signed Brandon Jennings, shipping out Middleton and Knight in the process
2015 - Traded for Tobias Harris fresh off his large new deal
2017 - Gambled on Blake Griffin's health, got one good year out of him
2019 - Fresh off a 20 win season signed Jerami Grant to an enormous deal, who they gave up picks to dump 2 years later

I said in part. None of those are very high picks & they got little for their vets. Sheed left in old age as a FA. Ben Wallace left as an older FA. Rip Hamilton was waived. They held onto Prince. Didn't get any picks, young players for their starters.

The Bucks will have FA too, but little to lure players ala Detroit. However, yea, it's even worse than Detroit when they had most of their late lotto picks, which they used poorly. At least they had them (though <1 per draft is light). Better find a way to get ours back, or it's bleak.

[Bernman]

Insanity. I mean, you're welcome to your opinion and all but... the journey was 50 years (20 years of us bitching on this board) with a few decent contention periods, and then in the latest contention period of 5-7 years or whatever, and they finally won a championship. In this market, it probably will never happen again while we breath oxygen... I just can't fathom your thought process. My guess is you're the only one here with it. Apologies for finally winning one, lol.

:|

The working definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results. What was that 20 years of bitching about again? Really more like 30, it just wasn't a board we were bitching on the whole time. Gee, wasn't that period from 1989 to 2019 fun where we got out the 1st rd a whopping once? I don't envy any fan who has to go thru that again.

Where's the fantasy store where they offer championships ever year, or at least once w/ regular contention surrounding? Pretty sure I'd take that. Nobody who has your attitude has grounds to complain from this point on I guess. I'm sure it won't stop most, & hasn't.

[paulpressey25]

You guys could all be Brewer fans. The 1977-1983 Brewers during my childhood were an amazing collection of Milwaukee greats. And a damn fun team to watch.

And then in August of 1982 they lost Rollie to injury, and lost game six AND seven of the World Series. And it still hurts. And they never got back 43 years later.

It’s going to be an ugly next five years. But getting ticked about some bad trades (and they’ve been bad) is nothing like what we’d be feeling if the Suns knocked us out in six or seven games.

[BroncoBuck]

Ignoring the fact that Middleton should've been moved long before he was for much better value.
Other than the ability to aggregate players in a trade, what other flexibility did we gain?

We're still ****.

Full MLE, aggregate players, more picks available to trade. Full MLE should be about 4yrs/60 million dollars. That’s a pretty damn good player.

We accomplish the full MLE through Brooks ending contract. We do no get more picks available to trade, as we can only trade 1 of the 2031 or 2032 picks.

The only thing we accomplished new was being able to include cash in the Sims trade.

You have to be below first apron to get the full MLE. The tax payer MLE should be around 2/13million or so.

Dame (54)
Giannis (54)
Kuzma (22)

Puts us at 130 million.
Pat opt in is 139 million.
Bobby opt in 153 million.
KPJ opt in 155 million
Green team option puts us at about 158 million for 7 guys. (Khris would’ve put us at 170). Leaves 5 roster spots to fill.

Luxury tax is 188 million.
First Apron is 195 million.

The Bucks now have room to retain some of their players in addition to using the full MLE, and that’s with Bobby opting in. The new CBA also allows you to trade for a player into that MLE contract space. You can effectively ignore the Stepien rule by making one of the years a swap (as everyone in the league has done the last decade).

The Bucks have options this offseason, even if they want to split the MLE on a guy like Oubre or NAW over using it all on one player like Myles Turner. There’s a lot of leveraged teams around the league right now, this is going to be a tough year for free agents to get paid (which is why I think Bobby opts in especially coming off his suspension).

[Baddy Chuck]

I said in part. None of those are very high picks & they got little for their vets. Sheed left in old age as a FA. Ben Wallace left as an older FA. Rip Hamilton was waived. They held onto Prince. Didn't get any picks, young players for their starters.

The Bucks will have FA too, but little to lure players ala Detroit. However, yea, it's even worse than Detroit when they had most of their late lotto picks, which they used poorly. At least they had them (though <1 per draft is light). Better find a way to get ours back, or it's bleak.

Those guys left later after they won a championship, sure, but also part of them leaving for nothing after their championship is because they held them and made it back to the finals and 3 conference finals (outside of Ben Wallace who left after their 1st conference finals trip). Their contending window wasn't just winning their championship. We didn't have that success, but also have run into some serious unfortunate events that may or may not have led to where we are now.

The Pistons 15 year draught was caused by complete mismanagement starting with trading for Allen Iverson to pay Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva and ending somewhere with making Monty Williams the highest paid coach ever, filled with a plethora of Herb Kohl level 8th seed years that they refused to throw in the towel on, and seriously flawed prospects (Monroe/Drummond) that they never sold off. It's easier said then done sure, but if the Bucks went scorched earth and traded Giannis, Dame and started fresh I'd argue they'd probably wind up with a better pool of assets (by far) than Detroit had in that 10 year run and it would be almost astronomically hard to match their level of incompetence in the open market. And 5 years into that potential 15 year span we'd have all our picks back under our control.

[raferfenix]

You guys could all be Brewer fans. The 1977-1983 Brewers during my childhood were an amazing collection of Milwaukee greats. And a damn fun team to watch.

This post feels like taking Old Yeller out to be shot.

I’m sorry but I won’t succumb to that. It’s just no fun.

ESPN is extremely trigger happy for stories about Milwaukee compelling Giannis to demand to be traded to a big market despite the 2 years left on his context.

How does this board best use this dynamic to the advantage of Bucks fans everywhere?

[emunney]

We all know that either taking Dre out of the rotation or putting him in the rotation will break the team out of a slump. I propose playing him every other game for the rest of the season.

[tonyreyes123]

Nets plan A is to go after Giannis I guess. I think they’re a sneaky contender to land Flagg so any trade will have to start with him

[ShootingtheJ]

Full MLE, aggregate players, more picks available to trade. Full MLE should be about 4yrs/60 million dollars. That’s a pretty damn good player.

We accomplish the full MLE through Brooks ending contract. We do no get more picks available to trade, as we can only trade 1 of the 2031 or 2032 picks.

The only thing we accomplished new was being able to include cash in the Sims trade.

You have to be below first apron to get the full MLE. The tax payer MLE should be around 2/13million or so.

Dame (54)
Giannis (54)
Kuzma (22)

Puts us at 130 million.
Pat opt in is 139 million.
Bobby opt in 153 million.
KPJ opt in 155 million
Green team option puts us at about 158 million for 7 guys. (Khris would’ve put us at 170). Leaves 5 roster spots to fill.

Luxury tax is 188 million.
First Apron is 195 million.

The Bucks now have room to retain some of their players in addition to using the full MLE, and that’s with Bobby opting in. The new CBA also allows you to trade for a player into that MLE contract space. You can effectively ignore the Stepien rule by making one of the years a swap (as everyone in the league has done the last decade).

The Bucks have options this offseason, even if they want to split the MLE on a guy like Oubre or NAW over using it all on one player like Myles Turner. There’s a lot of leveraged teams around the league right now, this is going to be a tough year for free agents to get paid (which is why I think Bobby opts in especially coming off his suspension).

Sorry, but Myles Turner is going to get $30 million a season, and NAW will get at least the full MLE if not more from Minnesota.

[pifhluk23]

The league has completely passed us by. The top tier offensive meta is motion offense with a top tier distributor or 1-5 everyone is a good and willing passer. Top tier defense is switching 1-5 and running your ass off to cover the corners. We can't do either and don't really have a path to acquire enough players to do both.

On top of that there is the fact that everyone is running a ton more then past eras thus more injuries (and why the NBA wants to shorten game times.) With that being the meta and the CBA the way it is you are far better off paying 1 max guy who can distribute the ball and then rest of the guys being 20-30M players. Were stuck with 2 nearly 60M guys and neither of them is a top tier distributor. There is no path for us to get to top tier in the current meta, its time to blow it up.

[ShootingtheJ]

The league has completely passed us by. The top tier offensive meta is motion offense with a top tier distributor or 1-5 everyone is a good and willing passer. Top tier defense is switching 1-5 and running your ass off to cover the corners. We can't do either and don't really have a path to acquire enough players to do both.

On top of that there is the fact that everyone is running a ton more then past eras thus more injuries (and why the NBA wants to shorten game times.) With that being the meta and the CBA the way it is you are far better off paying 1 max guy who can distribute the ball and then rest of the guys being 20-30M players. Were stuck with 2 nearly 60M guys and neither of them is a top tier distributor. There is no path for us to get to top tier in the current meta, its time to blow it up.

Giannis is an absolute top tier distributor.

[Ron Swanson]

The league has completely passed us by. The top tier offensive meta is motion offense with a top tier distributor or 1-5 everyone is a good and willing passer. Top tier defense is switching 1-5 and running your ass off to cover the corners. We can't do either and don't really have a path to acquire enough players to do both.

On top of that there is the fact that everyone is running a ton more then past eras thus more injuries (and why the NBA wants to shorten game times.) With that being the meta and the CBA the way it is you are far better off paying 1 max guy who can distribute the ball and then rest of the guys being 20-30M players. Were stuck with 2 nearly 60M guys and neither of them is a top tier distributor. There is no path for us to get to top tier in the current meta, its time to blow it up.

The latter either only describes Boston or pretty much describes every good offense (willing passers and ball movement). The best offense (Cleveland) runs the most pick & rolls per game (24.6) by a country mile. And looking at the numbers, still, the only dude who's a more efficient P&R initiator than Dame on high volume (1.07 PPP, 93rd percentile) is the guy who's gonna win MVP, SGA.

I'd argue that the biggest problem is this team for the past two seasons has had zero identity. It's just a bunch of dumb coaches trying to fit square pegs into round holes, so we shouldn't be trying to pigeon-hole the roster into whatever the "meta" is. We should be building a roster/scheme around and optimizing the stuff that's actually worked, despite the coach and GM's best efforts to make it not. Again, that tweet from yesterday says it all. We're an awesome shooting team with two elite offensive creators, that somehow only create the same number of "quality" shots as teams like Washington and Orlando. A brand new coaching staff that'll just put the players in their logical roles really is the easiest and simplest fix here.