ATL - New Lottery Rules Move to Owner Vote - pg59

Post #1061 » by **Prez** » Thu Sep 7, 2017 10:22 pm

DrWood wrote:
Prez wrote:
DrWood wrote:I understand that it's your opinion. What I don't understand is why everyone else should be striving you abide by your values.

I think a guy that cheats on his wife is a pussy, but a large minority of married men disagree with me.

Not sure where I said everyone should be abiding by my values? I'm just giving my take on it. In fact it's the other side where it's been said they "can't understand" why someone would dislike Durant's decision.

Because you have been suggesting his decision represents a CHARACTER FLAW, not simply a choice you wouldn't have made.

I don't know what your point even is. Durant can do whatever the hell he wants. I can still have an opinion on his competitive character.

blazza18 · Post #1062 » by **blazza18** » Thu Sep 7, 2017 10:25 pm

Prez wrote:
blazza18 wrote:
Prez wrote:Considering the circumstances aren't the same at all, yeah, I'd say so. But if someone does think he's a pussy for it I can at least see why and am not going to act dumbfounded that someone could think that way. Aldridge just isn't close to the caliber of player Durant is and what he does doesn't warrant much discussion. I'm not sure how a team that lost in the first round is a juggernaut either.

Outside of win totals and Aldridge being good not great I'm not seeing much difference between the two really.

And yea, the Spurs are a juggernaut.

Those are pretty significant & meaningful differences, in addition to the fact that it was over a year apart and not immediately after he lost to them.

And I think calling a team that loses in the first round a juggernaut is a pretty low standard for the term juggernaut.

What if the circumstances weren't significant or meaningful to KD though?

The Spurs were a 55 win team, won a title the year prior, haven't won less than 50 games for two decades and have the best coach in the world. How are they not a juggernaut?

DrWood · Post #1063 » by **DrWood** » Thu Sep 7, 2017 10:27 pm

Prez wrote:
DrWood wrote:
Prez wrote:Not sure where I said everyone should be abiding by my values? I'm just giving my take on it. In fact it's the other side where it's been said they "can't understand" why someone would dislike Durant's decision.

Because you have been suggesting his decision represents a CHARACTER FLAW, not simply a choice you wouldn't have made.
I don't know what your point even is. Durant can do whatever the hell he wants. I can still have an opinion on his character as a competitor.

I thought the point was clear. Just because someone behaves differently than you think you'd behave in the same situation doesn't mean it's a character flaw.

I mean, I don't think people should put (fresh) fruit in beer, but I get over it pretty quickly when someone does so. I don't keep nudging the guy to the other side of me, point to the fruit-in-beer guy, and say, "Pussy."

Post #1064 » by **Prez** » Thu Sep 7, 2017 10:47 pm

DrWood wrote:
Prez wrote:
DrWood wrote:
Because you have been suggesting his decision represents a CHARACTER FLAW, not simply a choice you wouldn't have made.
I don't know what your point even is. Durant can do whatever the hell he wants. I can still have an opinion on his character as a competitor.

I thought the point was clear. Just because someone behaves differently than you think you'd behave in the same situation doesn't mean it's a character flaw.

I mean, I don't think people should put (fresh) fruit in beer, but I get over it pretty quickly when someone does so. I don't keep nudging the guy to the other side of me, point to the fruit-in-beer guy, and say, "Pussy."

That's why it's a personal opinion and not an objective indisputable fact. Which you seemingly think I'm trying to pass it off as, when I'm not.

Post #1065 » by **Prez** » Thu Sep 7, 2017 10:54 pm

blazza18 wrote:
Prez wrote:
blazza18 wrote:
Outside of win totals and Aldridge being good not great I'm not seeing much difference between the two really.

And yea, the Spurs are a juggernaut.

Those are pretty significant & meaningful differences, in addition to the fact that it was over a year apart and not immediately after he lost to them.

And I think calling a team that loses in the first round a juggernaut is a pretty low standard for the term juggernaut.

What if the circumstances weren't significant or meaningful to KD though?

The Spurs were a 55 win team, won a title the year prior, haven't won less than 50 games for two decades and have the best coach in the world. How are they not a juggernaut?

Then that only reinforces my opinion of his competitiveness as an athlete?

I would consider a team a juggernaut based on how good they are, not how good they were in the past. The Spurs winning a title in 2014 and being successful for decades didn't do anything to stop them from losing the 1st round before Aldridge joined them.

blazza18 · Post #1066 » by **blazza18** » Thu Sep 7, 2017 11:05 pm

Prez wrote: I would consider a team a juggernaut based on how good they are, not how good they were in the past. The Spurs winning a title in 2014 and being successful for decades didn't do anything to stop them from losing the 1st round before Aldridge joined them.

I mean they were good that year. Not their fault they played another good team in round one.

raferfenix · Post #1067 » by **raferfenix** » Thu Sep 7, 2017 11:20 pm

If lottery reform goes through I wonder how that will reverberate around the league.

2018 could become the last year to tank all out with the increased likelihood of getting a top pick.

In that case a team like the Suns might be much more aggressive about trading Bledsoe let's say.

Triple 7 · Post #1068 » by **Triple 7** » Thu Sep 7, 2017 11:50 pm

raferfenix wrote:If lottery reform goes through I wonder how that will reverberate around the league.

2018 could become the last year to tank all out with the increased likelihood of getting a top pick.

In that case a team like the Suns might be much more aggressive about trading Bledsoe let's say.

The wiretap article says they are looking to get it started right away, this season.

raferfenix · Post #1069 » by **raferfenix** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 12:09 am

Not sure where RealGM is getting 2018 but Woj wrote this:

The NBA is aggressively pursuing draft lottery reform that could be voted into legislation and instituted by the 2019 draft, league sources told ESPN.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20621318/reform-nba-draft-lottery-voted-17-18-season

Pachinko_ · Post #1070 » by **Pachinko_** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 12:23 am

If you don't like tanking there's no need to reinvent the wheel, the solution is to create a Division 2 League and let the worst teams get relegated. Watching teams fight for survival towards the end of the season is one of the most interesting things in team sports and draw a tonne of bets, you guys are missing out. And the best of Division 2 teams get promoted, this is a second sideshow you guys are also missing out on.

The other thing that doesnt need reinventing is allowing teams to develop their own talent academies that they can draw talent from. Players who already know the team system and have been in the city from very young draw a lot of excitement for the fans and reward teams willing to invest in the future.

Pachinko_ · Post #1071 » by **Pachinko_** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 12:23 am

The most popular leagues around the world with hundreds of millions of fans have no parity rules at all, it's always the same 4-5 teams that have a chance. And they're still the most popular leagues. I know they tell you differently bu parity has nothing to do with the fans and everything to do with the players aspirations and owners' revenue, these are the two groups that make the decisions in the NBA.

Buck Dweller · Post #1072 » by **Buck Dweller** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 12:29 am

DrWood wrote:
Buck Dweller wrote:
DrWood wrote:I understand that it's your opinion. What I don't understand is why everyone else should be striving you abide by your values.

I think a guy that cheats on his wife is a pussy, but a large minority of married men disagree with me.

That doesn't mean it's right. You could justify murder or rape by saying "everyone else has different values, guys".

so now KD is a rapist or murderer?

so now you're going to misconstrue what I'm trying to say?

I brought up rape and murder because by your logic, rapists and murderers could just say "why should everyone else have to abide by your values?" in the face of whoever criticizes them. Clearly you wouldn't accept that as a justification in that context, so if you were to turn around and use that same justification in this context, you'd be logically inconsistent. I'm saying that "everyone has different values" is not an argument for why something is right. If you think what KD did is fine, you have to actually spell out why that is, other than bringing up how morals are subjective.

Buck Dweller · Post #1073 » by **Buck Dweller** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 12:36 am

GB_Packers wrote:We now have people bringing up rape comparisons. Time to seek therapy and tell them where on the doll Durant touched you.

I did not compare KD to a rapist. The context of rape and murder was used to show that simply saying "my values are different than yours" is not an argument for why something is right, because by that logic, it could justify rape or murder. If your values are different, and you think KD joining GSW was justified, then you actually have to spell out what that difference is, other than simply stating there's a difference.

Jez2983 · Post #1074 » by **Jez2983** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 3:19 am

Pachinko_ wrote:The most popular leagues around the world with hundreds of millions of fans have no parity rules at all, it's always the same 4-5 teams that have a chance. And they're still the most popular leagues. I know they tell you differently bu parity has nothing to do with the fans and everything to do with the players aspirations and owners' revenue, these are the two groups that make the decisions in the NBA.

I like the Div 2 idea, as that would be a better idea than the D-League.

Lots of questions though:
- different salaries Div 1-2?
- Do you still have playoffs?
- is the reason the leagues are so popular because there are far less (and more significant) games in the calendar? And, follow-up, does this work the NBA's 1000 game regular season?

Pachinko_ · Post #1075 » by **Pachinko_** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 4:26 am

Hey Jez, I'm basically describing the soccer model. La Liga, Premier League etc
So yeah less games, no play offs, and far less money in Div 2 but not as bad as the Gleague. Also if a big name is happy to play Div 2 for whatever reason there's no rule that says you can't pay him a tonne. As for why soccer is so popular, I don't really know, personally I prefer basketball.

IrishRainbow · Post #1076 » by **IrishRainbow** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 5:52 am

midranger wrote:For the life of me, I can't understand the Durant bashing/hatred.

I admittedly invest a lot of emotion in my home sport teams. I don't understand though how people have the time and/or emotional surplus to hate. And I'm talking hate within a close relations situation. I REALLY can't understand the willingness to tie the strings to that emotion to someone/something has zero actual bearing on ones existence. Guy made a personal decision. He's happy with it. What's the problem? The perceived landscape of the league? Oh. Okay.

trwi7 · Post #1077 » by **trwi7** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 6:03 am

You guys need to stop with the relegation thing. American sports are not set up for that at all and the owners will never agree to it. You think the NBA wants to risk a team in Los Angeles or New York getting relegated for a team in Omaha? You think the owners are going to agree to promotion/relegation and lose out on all of the TV revenue they're making? That's never, ever going to happen.

FlagsFlyForever · Post #1078 » by **FlagsFlyForever** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 6:22 am

trwi7 wrote:You guys need to stop with the relegation thing. American sports are not set up for that at all and the owners will never agree to it. You think the NBA wants to risk a team in Los Angeles or New York getting relegated for a team in Omaha? You think the owners are going to agree to promotion/relegation and lose out on all of the TV revenue they're making? That's never, ever going to happen.

Not to mention KAT/Porizingis (they tied) and Embiid would've been relegated out of the NBA last year. AD the year before. Cousins the year before that. The best part of the NBA is it has nearly all of the best players in the world. It would be terrible for the NBA and basketball fans to do anything to force top level players out of the NBA so inferior talent could take their spot.

Pachinko_ · Post #1079 » by **Pachinko_** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 6:26 am

Of course it's not gonna happen, just adding it to the list of things that make the NBA annoying
Tanking, meaningless RS games that only exist for revenue, countless time outs for TV, ISO ball, fake artificial parity, cap rules you need a lawyer and an accountant to understand etc

But it doesnt matter because ultimately giannis & jokic play there and that makes it worth it. It's a **** League with great players, take it or leave it.

FlagsFlyForever · Post #1080 » by **FlagsFlyForever** » Fri Sep 8, 2017 6:28 am

If you want to stop tanking you need to motivate teams to attempt to win. I've proposed this idea many times in the past but there's a simple solution to me. Each team's clock starts on the date they are officially eliminated from the playoffs. After that date, you start counting their wins until the end of the season. By the end of the season, the team with the most wins after their clock started will draft the earliest (or get the most ping pong balls). This will motivate teams to try to win while also providing an advantage to the worst teams to draft higher (because they will be officially eliminated from the playoffs earlier and thus have more games to earn wins).