Bucks Offseason Thread - Trade, news, re-tool discussion

jschligs · Post #1101 » by **jschligs** » Fri May 5, 2023 1:05 pm

I get Dame's comment, but how many years of underperforming can one ring outweigh? We blew it against TOR, I'll allow the bubble year to be a write off, we blew it against BOS (sure, Midds injury was huge), and then blew it against MIA. That's 3 playoffs where we underperformed. You can't ignore that.

I loved Bud but it was so obvious his time here was done. I think Nurse is another top tier coach and you have to give it a shot. Or some of the other names mentioned, but don't hire someone without any experience as a head coach in the NBA.

midranger · Post #1102 » by **midranger** » Fri May 5, 2023 1:12 pm

If we had more personnel options I think you could keep bud and find some smarter player. We don’t, though. And the main issue is that Giannis obviously holds all this together and he’s never going to be a high IQ/feel/varied player. He can play a couple notes better than anyone ever, but he’s never going to play a symphony. He needs a system to keep him on the right track.

machu46 · Post #1103 » by **machu46** » Fri May 5, 2023 1:45 pm

jschligs wrote:I get Dame's comment, but how many years of underperforming can one ring outweigh? We blew it against TOR, I'll allow the bubble year to be a write off, we blew it against BOS (sure, Midds injury was huge), and then blew it against MIA. That's 3 playoffs where we underperformed. You can't ignore that.

I loved Bud but it was so obvious his time here was done. I think Nurse is another top tier coach and you have to give it a shot. Or some of the other names mentioned, but don't hire someone without any experience as a head coach in the NBA.

I wouldn’t really count the Boston one was underperforming personally. Without Mids I think they were the better team. Toronto and Miami and the bubble were obviously disappointing.

I don’t really think Bud is the reason we lost any of those series but he is a reason for sure and it’s obviously easier to replace a coach than to upgrade the roster given how few resources we have right now.

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M-C-G · Post #1104 » by **M-C-G** » Fri May 5, 2023 2:06 pm

rayallenscalves wrote:I feel like I'm probably in the minority, but I think Horst has done a pretty nice job as GM. While his drafting has definitely sucked, that hasn't stopped him from putting together a championship-level roster. .

Yeah, I tend to agree. One of the arguments I have heard against him 'show me someone that he has drafted that is good'....and it is important to keep in mind, since DJ Wilson, he has drafted in the first, what, two times? DDV and Marjon??

For all the people that like to say 'win now' while we have Giannis, Horst has done nothing but try to win now. He managed to the put the best roster we have had in the last 30 years and probably should have at least one more championship. I think he is a pretty good GM.

emunney · Post #1105 » by **emunney** » Fri May 5, 2023 2:22 pm

jschligs wrote:I get Dame's comment, but how many years of underperforming can one ring outweigh? We blew it against TOR, I'll allow the bubble year to be a write off, we blew it against BOS (sure, Midds injury was huge), and then blew it against MIA. That's 3 playoffs where we underperformed. You can't ignore that.

I loved Bud but it was so obvious his time here was done. I think Nurse is another top tier coach and you have to give it a shot. Or some of the other names mentioned, but don't hire someone without any experience as a head coach in the NBA.

I don't think Dame was reacting to Bud alone. Kind of an accumulated sentiment from Vogel, Nurse, and now Bud.

Matches Malone · Post #1106 » by **Matches Malone** » Fri May 5, 2023 2:29 pm

Windhorst really leading the charge on this Giannis leaving thing. Dude can kindly **** off.

Read on Twitter

Ron Swanson · Post #1107 » by **Ron Swanson** » Fri May 5, 2023 2:44 pm

You guys had to have known this was coming. National sports media has been licking their chops since the second after we lost vs. Boston last year. I've learned to just tune it out at this point because it's a never-ending cycle. Think of it like the Middleton trade cycle. We had basically the one 10-month honeymoon period free of dumbass hot takes from July 2021 to May 2022, but everything ultimately always reverts back to toxicity and a referendum on entire player's careers and legacies. It is what it is.

machu46 · Post #1108 » by **machu46** » Fri May 5, 2023 2:46 pm

Matches Malone wrote:Windhorst really leading the charge on this Giannis leaving thing. Dude can kindly **** off.

Read on Twitter

It is what it is. Hard to blame Giannis if he eventually leaves but everything he’s said and done to this point suggests he’s a lifer.

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Turk Nowitzki · Post #1109 » by **Turk Nowitzki** » Fri May 5, 2023 2:55 pm

rayallenscalves wrote:I feel like I'm probably in the minority, but I think Horst has done a pretty nice job as GM. While his drafting has definitely sucked, that hasn't stopped him from putting together a championship-level roster. This season's roster was, in my opinion, the best Bucks roster I've ever seen. Bud just didn't do his part.

That being said, this is a huge offseason for him. He has to find the right coach and make the right roster choices, even if they're the hard choices.

I'm with you, I've been a little surprised at the quick turn against Horst. To be fair, he did misfire harder in that his main veteran FA signing and main trade acquisition both proved largely irrelevant in the playoffs. Overall though I do think he's done a good job at aggressively trying to piece together a championship roster over the years. I have been in favor of the majority of the moves he's made at the time they occurred.

Also, the rumored FVV deal to me is something i find encouraging. It was a sign he is not overly attached to our players in the way some fans might be and not afraid to take some swings if he thinks it makes the team better.

Having said that, he's always been operating in the "deal lesser assets plus draft picks for veteran players" mode. Putting complimentary pieces around an established core is much easier than trying to retool the core. I do think he more than Bud has earned a shot at giving it one more go.

Turk Nowitzki · Post #1110 » by **Turk Nowitzki** » Fri May 5, 2023 2:58 pm

Matches Malone wrote:Windhorst really leading the charge on this Giannis leaving thing. Dude can kindly **** off.

Read on Twitter

He really got the orders from the top to really lean hard on this Giannis leaving narrative again. They want him to leave Milwaukee so bad man.

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #1111 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:04 pm

Matches Malone wrote:Windhorst really leading the charge on this Giannis leaving thing. Dude can kindly **** off.

Read on Twitter

It just seems like a lazy take. it is obvious Lasry got a **** ton of money for selling and doesn't have to pay the luxury tax. He sold to a guy who is willing to spend a **** ton of money. They also wouldn't light $16m on fire if they knew Giannis was leaving and had to rebuild.

Ron Swanson · Post #1112 » by **Ron Swanson** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:05 pm

Hard to fault Horst for this specific season going down the drain. 58-win roster with a deep rotation and seemingly addressed the shortcomings of the previous team (added a versatile big-wing defender and offensive initiator in Crowder and Jingles). With a healthy Middleton this team was literally the odds on favorite to reach the Finals before the playoffs started. But it all comes back to the PJ stuff. Whoever you want to blame for that move is fine, but ultimately the GM bears responsibility for how the roster ends up looking, and when you have the chance to bring back the entirety of your Top-8 rotation from a championship team, you always run it back for at least one more year.

emunney · Post #1113 » by **emunney** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:09 pm

Matches Malone wrote:Windhorst really leading the charge on this Giannis leaving thing. Dude can kindly **** off.

Read on Twitter

Nice to know Alex Lasry is still talking to NBA media.

DutchManDanFan · Post #1114 » by **DutchManDanFan** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:18 pm

machu46 wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:Windhorst really leading the charge on this Giannis leaving thing. Dude can kindly **** off.

Read on Twitter

It is what it is. Hard to blame Giannis if he eventually leaves but everything he’s said and done to this point suggests he’s a lifer.

Giannis can never leave. If only he made a decent amount of FT's, Bud might still be coaching the Bucks right now.

jakecronus8 · Post #1115 » by **jakecronus8** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:22 pm

DutchManDanFan wrote:
machu46 wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:Windhorst really leading the charge on this Giannis leaving thing. Dude can kindly **** off.

Read on Twitter

It is what it is. Hard to blame Giannis if he eventually leaves but everything he’s said and done to this point suggests he’s a lifer.

Giannis can never leave. If only he made a decent amount of FT's, Bud might still be coaching the Bucks right now.

I hate that this is pretty much the truth.

For all the years that we've discussed ad nauseum Giannis developing a 3 point or mid range game, all he had to do was get free throws down and he probably has at least another MVP and another ring if not more.

Turk Nowitzki · Post #1116 » by **Turk Nowitzki** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:33 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:Windhorst really leading the charge on this Giannis leaving thing. Dude can kindly **** off.

Read on Twitter

It just seems like a lazy take. it is obvious Lasry got a **** ton of money for selling and doesn't have to pay the luxury tax. He sold to a guy who is willing to spend a **** ton of money. They also wouldn't light $16m on fire if they knew Giannis was leaving and had to rebuild.

Yeah it's just a ridiculous misrepresentation of the situation. Lasry sold because the Bucks planned on a deep playoff run and then committing the financial resources to keep Khris/Brook/Jae long term. It was purely financially motivated like everything Lasry has ever done. To act like he foresaw Giannis was going to get hurt and the team would flame out in round 1 is ridiculous.

Post #1117 » by **MickeyDavis** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:37 pm

Game 6 vs. Suns, Giannis 17-19, win by 7
Game 5 vs. Heat, Giannis 10-23, lose by 2

I'm not pinning the loss solely on Giannis of course but making free throws, even going just 13-23, was an easy path to a win.

averageposter · Post #1118 » by **averageposter** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:41 pm

Initially I thought Lasry selling was early, given the impending TV deal. But that valuation is incredible, the second most valuable franchise, a 600% ROI, seems like he got some credit for the new TV deal and got most of his time as govenor,and out before paying extra out of pocket. And all of the reporting about Lasry looking to sell was focused on the extra money out of pocket, until now of course after the 1st round debacle.

Turk Nowitzki · Post #1119 » by **Turk Nowitzki** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:44 pm

I get that we're going to have to take our lumps in the media after the postseason collapse but there's no winning for the Bucks right now. No matter if they kept or fired Bud it was going to get twisted into the same end result of a narrative. They're seeing blood in the water again to push the "Giannis is going to leave" narratives and its not going to stop now unless we do a lot of winning in the playoffs next season or he extends again.

BroncoBuck · Post #1120 » by **BroncoBuck** » Fri May 5, 2023 3:57 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Hard to fault Horst for this specific season going down the drain. 58-win roster with a deep rotation and seemingly addressed the shortcomings of the previous team (added a versatile big-wing defender and offensive initiator in Crowder and Jingles). With a healthy Middleton this team was literally the odds on favorite to reach the Finals before the playoffs started. But it all comes back to the PJ stuff. Whoever you want to blame for that move is fine, but ultimately the GM bears responsibility for how the roster ends up looking, and when you have the chance to bring back the entirety of your Top-8 rotation from a championship team, you always run it back for at least one more year.

I just can’t get over the Ingles signing. His athleticism was always questionable, then he tore his ACL. We had to trade him at the deadline and we failed to do it. I think Horst has done a fine job other than that particular move. He punted on Augustine quickly, and his draft picks seem to be in line with what you’d expect from late first round picks.