ImageImage

Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

Moderators: MickeyDavis, paulpressey25

GHOSTofSIKMA
RealGM
Posts: 22,806
And1: 8,975
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Location: NC
     

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1161 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Wed Dec 2, 2020 10:09 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:People always wonder how San Antonio was so good for so long. Easy. Tim Duncan always stayed with them, no questions asked, save for a brief free agent flirtation with Orlando in July of 2000.

Second most important thing is that somehow, someway, they were always able to keep Tony Parker and Manu off the free agent market. And they'd sign them to these long, team friendly deals. Had either of those guys broken out into free agency during a summer with a lot of money, one of them would have gotten the Middleton contract. And it would have messed up the whole thing.


gone are the days master. gone are the days
GHOSTofSIKMA
RealGM
Posts: 22,806
And1: 8,975
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Location: NC
     

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1162 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Wed Dec 2, 2020 10:12 pm

lebron-ad
harden-westbrook

those are the two teams with multiple all nba guys. its really a pipedream to suggest thats a recipe here for anything.

in fact honestly.... what 2 man or 3man combo in the entire league do we trade our guys for? does an example even exist?
User avatar
Ron Swanson
RealGM
Posts: 26,129
And1: 30,143
Joined: May 15, 2013

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1163 » by Ron Swanson » Wed Dec 2, 2020 10:20 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:People always wonder how San Antonio was so good for so long. Easy. Tim Duncan always stayed with them, no questions asked, save for a brief free agent flirtation with Orlando in July of 2000.

Second most important thing is that somehow, someway, they were always able to keep Tony Parker and Manu off the free agent market. And they'd sign them to these long, team friendly deals. Had either of those guys broken out into free agency during a summer with a lot of money, one of them would have gotten the Middleton contract. And it would have messed up the whole thing.


I mean, would it have? The more remarkable thing with the Spurs to me was their front office's uncanny ability to consistently find value in the draft, overseas, or of the scrap heap to compliment those 3. Remember that Parker in 2005 signed what was at the time a massive extension (6-yrs $66 million in a time where the cap was $50 million). Duncan giving them the loyalty discount in his last few seasons probably helped extend their window slightly, but the Spurs absolutely ponied up to keep the Parker/Duncan/Ginobli trio together.

As for a Bucks parallel, they've pretty much forced themselves into a similar situation (you have to extend Giannis and Jrue at all costs), but again, the Spurs always managed to scrounge up those guys (Patty Mills, Bertans, Bowen, Splitter, Diaw, Danny Green, etc.) that helped them stay relevant and kept roster spots 4-15 churning.
GHOSTofSIKMA
RealGM
Posts: 22,806
And1: 8,975
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Location: NC
     

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1164 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Wed Dec 2, 2020 10:24 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:People always wonder how San Antonio was so good for so long. Easy. Tim Duncan always stayed with them, no questions asked, save for a brief free agent flirtation with Orlando in July of 2000.

Second most important thing is that somehow, someway, they were always able to keep Tony Parker and Manu off the free agent market. And they'd sign them to these long, team friendly deals. Had either of those guys broken out into free agency during a summer with a lot of money, one of them would have gotten the Middleton contract. And it would have messed up the whole thing.


I mean, would it have? The more remarkable thing with the Spurs to me was their front office's uncanny ability to consistently find value in the draft, overseas, or of the scrap heap to compliment those 3. Remember that Parker in 2005 signed what was at the time a massive extension (6-yrs $66 million). Duncan giving them the loyalty discount in his last few seasons probably helped extend their window slightly, but the Spurs absolutely ponied up to keep the Parker/Duncan/Ginobli trio together.

As for a Bucks parallel, they've pretty much forced themselves into a similar situation (you have to extend Giannis and Jrue at all costs), but again, the Spurs always managed to scrounge up those guys (Patty Mills, Bertans, Bowen, Splitter, Diaw, Danny Green, etc.) that helped them stay relevant and kept roster spots 4-15 churning.


then there was kawhi too. lets not forget him. how do we remember the spurs if not for that home run
User avatar
paulpressey25
Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
Posts: 62,839
And1: 30,105
Joined: Oct 27, 2002
     

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1165 » by paulpressey25 » Wed Dec 2, 2020 10:33 pm

Ron Swanson wrote: Remember that Parker in 2005 signed what was at the time a massive extension (6-yrs $66 million in a time where the cap was $50 million).


In 2005, an inferior player (high calorie scoring, no defense, no passing) signed a 6 year/$90 million deal to stay with his current club.

That extra $24 million the Spurs saved could then be used on complimentary guys.

There is no question that they then did a fantastic job finding complimentary guys. But they also never had "bad contracts" on their books.
In depth discussions here - shorter stuff on Twitter

https://twitter.com/paulpressey25
User avatar
benultimate
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,588
And1: 1,131
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
 

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1166 » by benultimate » Wed Dec 2, 2020 10:51 pm

I was just thinking about San Antonio before. In the era where stars are getting moved for 3+ first rounders, they traded Kawhi for.... DeRozen and Poetl? Yikes
User avatar
Ron Swanson
RealGM
Posts: 26,129
And1: 30,143
Joined: May 15, 2013

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1167 » by Ron Swanson » Wed Dec 2, 2020 10:54 pm

Counter-point: Khris Middleton isn't a "bad" contract, and Tony Parker making the modern equivalent of $26-27 million per year would be looked at in hindsight as an albatross had he been on the 2005-2010 Bucks instead of winning championships riding the coattails of Tim Duncan...

:dontknow:
User avatar
Badgerlander
RealGM
Posts: 27,064
And1: 7,488
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
     

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1168 » by Badgerlander » Wed Dec 2, 2020 11:37 pm

benultimate wrote:I was just thinking about San Antonio before. In the era where stars are getting moved for 3+ first rounders, they traded Kawhi for.... DeRozen and Poetl? Yikes


And Keldon Johnson
Shoot, Move, and Communicate...

Spoiler:

I'm just here for my own amusement,"don't take offense at my innuendo..."


Countless waze, we pass the daze...

A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
GHOSTofSIKMA
RealGM
Posts: 22,806
And1: 8,975
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Location: NC
     

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1169 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Wed Dec 2, 2020 11:41 pm

who would be better for the bucks right now today?

jrue holiday or jimmy butler

not a rhetorical question either. ive watched way more of butler over the last 5 years.... not as much of holiday. boxscore stats and scouting report feels similar is holiday even on the same planet?
User avatar
Prez
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 27,333
And1: 44,671
Joined: Jan 26, 2015
 

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1170 » by Prez » Wed Dec 2, 2020 11:46 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:who would be better for the bucks right now today?

jrue holiday or jimmy butler

not a rhetorical question either. ive watched way more of butler over the last 5 years.... not as much of holiday

Jimmy is a notch above Jrue, Jimmy’s in that 9-13 range Jrue probably 18-25. Jrue might be a better fit but Jimmy’s noticeably better.

Though if Jrue has 2018 playoff form still in him it’s close
GHOSTofSIKMA
RealGM
Posts: 22,806
And1: 8,975
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Location: NC
     

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1171 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Wed Dec 2, 2020 11:48 pm

benultimate wrote:I was just thinking about San Antonio before. In the era where stars are getting moved for 3+ first rounders, they traded Kawhi for.... DeRozen and Poetl? Yikes


i think it was very much understood he was headed to LA and LA only and there was health issues. hard to know what kind of bidding occurred? i forget what boston offered i think they were in play?
GHOSTofSIKMA
RealGM
Posts: 22,806
And1: 8,975
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Location: NC
     

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1172 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Wed Dec 2, 2020 11:53 pm

Prez wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:who would be better for the bucks right now today?

jrue holiday or jimmy butler

not a rhetorical question either. ive watched way more of butler over the last 5 years.... not as much of holiday

Jimmy is a notch above Jrue, Jimmy’s in that 9-13 range Jrue probably 18-25. Jrue might be a better fit but Jimmy’s noticeably better.

Though if Jrue has 2018 playoff form still in him it’s close


like what makes him better tho? its not shooting. its not defense. he doesnt have a better handle. my sense is he oozes "that guy" stuff and jrue kinda doesnt? demands the ball and gets his shot? not as passive in big moments?

i compared their stats and it kinda made me wonder. butler ive watched at length obviously. jrue honestly just when weve played them i guess. on league pass the jrue/ad show wasnt really must watch for me when our games were over
User avatar
giannis and 1
Starter
Posts: 2,397
And1: 1,198
Joined: Jan 06, 2019
Location: Vancouver, BC
       

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1173 » by giannis and 1 » Thu Dec 3, 2020 12:01 am

coolhandluke121 wrote:A couple years ago, Jrue was voted the most underrated player in the league by his peers. Khris and Lillard tied for second (Lillard was clearly a star but deserved even more respect according to his peers, which they were clearly right about). How about a 5/$178m extension for Jrue to match Khris? You're still paying near-max money for two fringe top-20 players in their best season, and fringe top 30 guys in an average year... but if it make Giannis happy, so be it!

Bro wtf is this. It's gonna be Giannis, Jrue, Middleton, and a bunch of guys on league minimum contracts. That would be fine if Jrue or Middleton was a legit 2nd option and top 10-15 player but they aren't, so that roster would not make it very far in the playoffs unless Giannis became a rich mans Jordan.
still learning the game

Matches Malone wrote:How did NBA fandom get to the point that it's more fun to thirst over players on other teams than to care more about your own team and players...
User avatar
Plossum
General Manager
Posts: 9,229
And1: 6,180
Joined: Jan 18, 2014

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1174 » by Plossum » Thu Dec 3, 2020 12:02 am

So do we still max Jrue this off-season if Giannis bolts? Would he even want to stay in that instance.

We could be Herb Kohling it again with a Jrue, Midds, Brook big three. Dark times.
#LockUpChuck
User avatar
giannis and 1
Starter
Posts: 2,397
And1: 1,198
Joined: Jan 06, 2019
Location: Vancouver, BC
       

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1175 » by giannis and 1 » Thu Dec 3, 2020 12:05 am

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
emunney wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:who gives a crap about how much a deal is worth if your playing for championships and a guy still has positive value on said deal. jrue and middleton on the open market with max deals would create a bidding war that involved 5-10 teams. i think we forget gordon hayward created a bidding war for crissakes. top 30 players have MASSIVE value regardless of contract


Turns out there are only 30 of them.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

and more importantly over the course of any season less than 5 even change teams with only 1-2 moving thru trade. its a really big deal when a guy like beal gets floated. jrue and middleton are on that tier. it would be nuts the offers we would get if we were to go the rebuild route

If this is true, then next year (if we don't win the chip), I would extend Jrue to that max contract and ship out Middleton's ass for the best assortment of cost controlled 21-27 year olds we could get.
still learning the game

Matches Malone wrote:How did NBA fandom get to the point that it's more fun to thirst over players on other teams than to care more about your own team and players...
Chad34
RealGM
Posts: 12,653
And1: 5,797
Joined: Dec 04, 2016
Location: Knoxville, TN
     

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1176 » by Chad34 » Thu Dec 3, 2020 12:09 am

giannis and 1 wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:A couple years ago, Jrue was voted the most underrated player in the league by his peers. Khris and Lillard tied for second (Lillard was clearly a star but deserved even more respect according to his peers, which they were clearly right about). How about a 5/$178m extension for Jrue to match Khris? You're still paying near-max money for two fringe top-20 players in their best season, and fringe top 30 guys in an average year... but if it make Giannis happy, so be it!

Bro wtf is this. It's gonna be Giannis, Jrue, Middleton, and a bunch of guys on league minimum contracts. That would be fine if Jrue or Middleton was a legit 2nd option and top 10-15 player but they aren't, so that roster would not make it very far in the playoffs unless Giannis became a rich mans Jordan.

that's all it's been. this roster has the best potential of any since giannis has been on the team. really it's been smoke and mirrors, we just need to find a couple of guys they won't wilt under pressure and be able to hit a wide open shot.
coolhandluke121
RealGM
Posts: 14,309
And1: 7,454
Joined: Sep 23, 2007

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1177 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Dec 3, 2020 12:11 am

giannis and 1 wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:A couple years ago, Jrue was voted the most underrated player in the league by his peers. Khris and Lillard tied for second (Lillard was clearly a star but deserved even more respect according to his peers, which they were clearly right about). How about a 5/$178m extension for Jrue to match Khris? You're still paying near-max money for two fringe top-20 players in their best season, and fringe top 30 guys in an average year... but if it make Giannis happy, so be it!

Bro wtf is this. It's gonna be Giannis, Jrue, Middleton, and a bunch of guys on league minimum contracts. That would be fine if Jrue or Middleton was a legit 2nd option and top 10-15 player but they aren't, so that roster would not make it very far in the playoffs unless Giannis became a rich mans Jordan.


The tax apron is like $140m and it's likely to start going up again once the dust settles. There's space for way more than minimum contracts. I think they could afford Brook + the full MLE + minimum contracts. But yes, it would be top-heavy. That wins in the playoffs. It would be the closest they can come to the Heatles when they got guys like Battier and Ray and Mike Miller on minimum deals, and the only reason that fell apart was because Wade fell off a cliff and Bosh had to have a medical retirement.

ETA: Brook would sort of be their Haslem, albeit at a different position. Lots of parallels.
Wut we've got here is... faaailure... to communakate.
User avatar
Prez
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 27,333
And1: 44,671
Joined: Jan 26, 2015
 

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1178 » by Prez » Thu Dec 3, 2020 12:16 am

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
Prez wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:who would be better for the bucks right now today?

jrue holiday or jimmy butler

not a rhetorical question either. ive watched way more of butler over the last 5 years.... not as much of holiday

Jimmy is a notch above Jrue, Jimmy’s in that 9-13 range Jrue probably 18-25. Jrue might be a better fit but Jimmy’s noticeably better.

Though if Jrue has 2018 playoff form still in him it’s close


like what makes him better tho? its not shooting. its not defense. he doesnt have a better handle. my sense is he oozes "that guy" stuff and jrue kinda doesnt? demands the ball and gets his shot? not as passive in big moments?

i compared their stats and it kinda made me wonder. butler ive watched at length obviously. jrue honestly just when weve played them i guess. on league pass the jrue/ad show wasnt really must watch for me when our games were over

The biggest difference imo is Jimmy is bigger, stronger, more powerful athlete and has a brute force aggressiveness in the paint and getting to the line that Jrue doesn’t quite match. He’s got crazy body control and is probably only below Harden in drawing contact and BS fouls. He averages literally over triple the FTA that Jrue does and it makes him significantly more efficient and puts more pressure on the defense

I’m more so basing this on the playoffs tbh, regular season I actually don’t think the gap is big at all

Jrue has certainly had incredible playoff games himself, it’s just been a couple years and he has to show he still has it in him. Jimmy just did it this season. 2018 playoffs Jrue is probably a top 12-15 guy, just don’t know if we get that guy
User avatar
giannis and 1
Starter
Posts: 2,397
And1: 1,198
Joined: Jan 06, 2019
Location: Vancouver, BC
       

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1179 » by giannis and 1 » Thu Dec 3, 2020 12:17 am

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:lebron-ad
harden-westbrook

those are the two teams with multiple all nba guys. its really a pipedream to suggest thats a recipe here for anything.

in fact honestly.... what 2 man or 3man combo in the entire league do we trade our guys for? does an example even exist?

An example does not exist but that's not because of current on court value. It is because Giannis turns 26 in a couple days and still has potential that he has yet to unlock.

When it comes to on court value today... Lebron+AD are WAY more valuable. Leonard+PG are also a little more valuable. Then you have the following that are about equal: KD+Irving, Curry+Thompson
still learning the game

Matches Malone wrote:How did NBA fandom get to the point that it's more fun to thirst over players on other teams than to care more about your own team and players...
User avatar
Prez
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 27,333
And1: 44,671
Joined: Jan 26, 2015
 

Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1180 » by Prez » Thu Dec 3, 2020 12:19 am

Giannis/Jrue/Khris is the best trio in the league, unless we’re counting some BS like LeBron/AD/whoever lol.

Return to Milwaukee Bucks