Rank Bud against the other 29 coaches in the NBA

[Milbucks96]

Bud is a top 10 coach, I'm just not sure this team doesn't need a new voice for them to take the next step. We just play stupid basketball. We played stupid basketball into one championship, but I'm not sure we can do it again.

Idk if there is a next step with this team unless you upgrade one of, if not both Khris/Jrue. I agree with you that another one of his close peers could maybe have a more positive impact with a more adaptable offense and defense, but I mean the bucks have been as successful as you could hope.

Since Bud was hired the bucks have been the most successful team in the league, the next level is historic dynasty and you’re not getting that with one hof player, 2 borderline all stars and 4 role players.

[BroncoBuck]

Kerr's adjustments last night should end any debate between him and Bud.

Ask James Wiseman about Steve Kerr’s inability to make adjustments.

Hasn't he been hurt all year?

Kerr refused to adapt his offense to fit a center built for the PnR last season. Kerr tried to have Wiseman play the same role as Looney and Draymond. When Wiseman wasn’t a fit for Kerr’s offense he benched him and went small ball to push for the play in game (which they went on to lose anyway).

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[Sigra]

Top 5 regular season coach.
Average playoff coach.

[CharityStripe34]

Bud is a top 10 coach, I'm just not sure this team doesn't need a new voice for them to take the next step. We just play stupid basketball. We played stupid basketball into one championship, but I'm not sure we can do it again.

Idk if there is a next step with this team unless you upgrade one of, if not both Khris/Jrue. I agree with you that another one of his close peers could maybe have a more positive impact with a more adaptable offense and defense, but I mean the bucks have been as successful as you could hope.

Since Bud was hired the bucks have been the most successful team in the league, the next level is historic dynasty and you’re not getting that with one hof player, 2 borderline all stars and 4 role players.

Bud is a very good coach, and agreed that what we are looking for is to potentially become dynastic which is excruciatingly **** difficult. Especially with a poor draft record and over-reliance on old veterans, not to mention the nature of NBA free-agency and movement.

Two things HAVE to change for that to happen. The Bucks have to find 1-2 unsung draft heroes to become foundational rotation pieces. And Bud HAS to begin upgrading/evolving his coaching philosophy. The obsession he has with protecting the paint at the expense of allowing threes is almost like the defensive equivalent to Moreyball offense of layups and bombing threes, which failed massively every single post-season when Houston was a contender. Time to move on from Brook and find a serviceable C who can switch and wing depth who are able to defend their guy even passably.

[skones]

Bud is a top 10 coach, I'm just not sure this team doesn't need a new voice for them to take the next step. We just play stupid basketball. We played stupid basketball into one championship, but I'm not sure we can do it again.

Idk if there is a next step with this team unless you upgrade one of, if not both Khris/Jrue. I agree with you that another one of his close peers could maybe have a more positive impact with a more adaptable offense and defense, but I mean the bucks have been as successful as you could hope.

Since Bud was hired the bucks have been the most successful team in the league, the next level is historic dynasty and you’re not getting that with one hof player, 2 borderline all stars and 4 role players.

You just said you don't know if there's a next step with this team and then went on to say that you agreed that one of his peers could have a more adaptable offense and defense. That IS the next step. To see this team come down to the floor and go iso after iso in true Giannis vs Toronto, run harder at the wall fashion. That's stubbornness. We didn't make things easier on ourselves to generate open looks with ball swings, high-low post action, etc. Giving Brook the damn ball is the most obvious thing in the world and we haven't even touched that with any type of consistency outside of the Atlanta series. Playing Carter more was also the most obvious thing in the world and that also didn't happen. There were things that we could have tried in this series, and we left cards on the table.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Top 5 regular season coach.
Average playoff coach.

any coach thats immensely successful all season long might struggle to abandon key principles and players in playoff series

thats probably all this boils down to

[Milbucks96]

Bud is a top 10 coach, I'm just not sure this team doesn't need a new voice for them to take the next step. We just play stupid basketball. We played stupid basketball into one championship, but I'm not sure we can do it again.

Idk if there is a next step with this team unless you upgrade one of, if not both Khris/Jrue. I agree with you that another one of his close peers could maybe have a more positive impact with a more adaptable offense and defense, but I mean the bucks have been as successful as you could hope.

Since Bud was hired the bucks have been the most successful team in the league, the next level is historic dynasty and you’re not getting that with one hof player, 2 borderline all stars and 4 role players.

You just said you don't know if there's a next step with this team and then went on to say that you agreed that one of his peers could have a more adaptable offense and defense. That IS the next step. To see this team come down to the floor and go iso after iso in true Giannis vs Toronto, run harder at the wall fashion. That's stubbornness. We didn't make things easier on ourselves to generate open looks with ball swings, high-low post action, etc. Giving Brook the damn ball is the most obvious thing in the world and we haven't even touched that with any type of consistency outside of the Atlanta series. Playing Carter more was also the most obvious thing in the world and that also didn't happen. There were things that we could have tried in this series, and we left cards on the table.

My point is we have been as successful you can expect of this roster, no team has been as good as the bucks the past 4 years, playoff or regular season. Guys like lue, nurse, even pop, spo all watch their guys go iso and iso in the playoffs. We have three guys who can dribble more than 2 times and only one of those guys can hit a pull up jumper at an average rate, and he was on the bench.

I don’t love the drop but it’s no secret that the 2019 and last year bucks playoff defense are both two of the best ever. It’s not like Bud hasn’t benched Brook and other liabilities for a smaller lineup like against the Celtics in 2019 also. You bringing up Carter should show how little we had in the cupboard, I highly doubt full court pressure and his 1.5 ppg was the missing piece to beating Boston. I admit Bud should’ve played him more but I mean is that really why we lost?

The bucks also almost always create better scoring opportunities than their opponents and our shooters always fall off. Since it’s consistent you can put some blame on Bud but I mean what else can he do? We even started to run some stuff for Allen and he just bricked everything. Bostons biggest “adjustment” was we have guys that can bother Giannis one on one so we’re not letting any else beat us. When Jrue is you’re only other offensive option what can you do?

Yea I would love to see what a Lue or Nurse would do with a small ball lineup here, or what a warriors style offense and defense would look like, but idk if people understand the level of talent those guys have coached during their tenures and Bud has had better results than those guys. Yea Giannis is an atg but so is Lebron/Steph/KD/Kawhi.

If there is a coach that can take this roster from perennial contenders and recent champs to all time dynasty then please point them out.

[skones]

My point is we have been as successful you can expect of this roster, no team has been as good as the bucks the past 4 years, playoff or regular season. Guys like lue, nurse, even pop, spo all watch their guys go iso and iso in the playoffs. We have three guys who can dribble more than 2 times and only one of those guys can hit a pull up jumper at an average rate, and he was on the bench.

I don’t love the drop but it’s no secret that the 2019 and last year bucks playoff defense are both two of the best ever. It’s not like Bud hasn’t benched Brook and other liabilities for a smaller lineup like against the Celtics in 2019 also. You bringing up Carter should show how little we had in the cupboard, I highly doubt full court pressure and his 1.5 ppg was the missing piece to beating Boston. I admit Bud should’ve played him more but I mean is that really why we lost?

The bucks also almost always create better scoring opportunities than their opponents and our shooters always fall off. Since it’s consistent you can put some blame on Bud but I mean what else can he do? We even started to run some stuff for Allen and he just bricked everything. Bostons biggest “adjustment” was we have guys that can bother Giannis one on one so we’re not letting any else beat us. When Jrue is you’re only other offensive option what can you do?

Yea I would love to see what a Lue or Nurse would do with a small ball lineup here, or what a warriors style offense and defense would look like, but idk if people understand the level of talent those guys have coached during their tenures and Bud has had better results than those guys. Yea Giannis is an atg but so is Lebron/Steph/KD/Kawhi.

If there is a coach that can take this roster from perennial contenders and recent champs to all time dynasty then please point them out.

But what else can he do? In the 126 minutes that Jevon Carter was on the floor in the playoffs the Bucks were +24.4 points per 100 possessions. That's certainly something to go back to and try. I gave you a few other suggestions as well. Am I saying not playing Jevon Carter is the reason we lost? No, but he could have been a piece of the puzzle that helped solve some things for us. These little adjustments add up in playoff games. When your offense is garbage, and you keep doing the same thing over and over and over, it's an issue.

I'd rather not just sit on my hands in a 7 game series and say, 'Welp, what can we do, we're outgunned,' and you're kind of framing things that way.

[tydett]

Bud has been outcoached by rookie coaches in 2 of the past four playoffs. Were they on anybody's list of "guys I'd like to replace my coach with" dudes? I'm not sure why it is the responsibility of people who believe there's another coach out there who might be more effective to know exactly who that coach is when there are firms and professionals who can make that determination.

Again, the point is moot, because the ownership group/FO will be perfectly content to pray that the Bucks stay healthy and maybe make adjustments for the next two years before thinking about replacing Bud. But I also don't think it's wrong to point out that Budenholzer has probably reached his peak with the team and we may not get back there while he's in charge.

[Milbucks96]

We can agree to disagree, I do think we were majorly outgunned and not losing in 5 was an accomplishment. It’s not like Bud didn’t switch up the starting 5, played Bobby more, played Bobby less, threw in more small ball, big lineups more the next game, switched defensive assignments, hedged, then switch, then drop. I understand and agree that Bud should’ve been more flexible, I called him out in some of the pg losses. He had to be better and near perfect but he wasn’t. That’s why I don’t rate him at the very top of the league.

But I just can’t get with this notion that Bud is holding us back and a different coach would raise this team to the heights of gsw, heat, spurs, lakers, bulls etc. I think you have to seriously upgrade the top end talent around Giannis before you can even assume something like that.

Other than the early 2000’s pistons has there ever been a team with one all nba player that had a run as good the past 4 years. Giannis is a top 10 player already and he deserves more, everybody else in the organization is expendable if you can upgrade them including Bud. If a better option comes up by all means replace him. But like can we get another guy who can create and hit a shot in the half court before we start declaring Bud is some kind of mark jackson type road bump on the way to basketball immortality?

We have 70+ million tied up on 2 30 year olds that probably won’t ever make another all star game, I think that’s more of a priority than replacing one of the only coaches who impact winning.

[th87]

We can agree to disagree, I do think we were majorly outgunned and not losing in 5 was an accomplishment. It’s not like Bud didn’t switch up the starting 5, played Bobby more, played Bobby less, threw in more small ball, big lineups more the next game, switched defensive assignments, hedged, then switch, then drop. I understand and agree that Bud should’ve been more flexible, I called him out in some of the pg losses. He had to be better and near perfect but he wasn’t. That’s why I don’t rate him at the very top of the league.

But I just can’t get with this notion that Bud is holding us back and a different coach would raise this team to the heights of gsw, heat, spurs, lakers, bulls etc. I think you have to seriously upgrade the top end talent around Giannis before you can even assume something like that.

Other than the early 2000’s pistons has there ever been a team with one all nba player that had a run as good the past 4 years. Giannis is a top 10 player already and he deserves more, everybody else in the organization is expendable if you can upgrade them including Bud. If a better option comes up by all means replace him. But like can we get another guy who can create and hit a shot in the half court before we start declaring Bud is some kind of mark jackson type road bump on the way to basketball immortality?

We have 70+ million tied up on 2 30 year olds that probably won’t ever make another all star game, I think that’s more of a priority than replacing one of the only coaches who impact winning.

His ability to react is very slow. Often it's two games later, and by then, the opposing coach will have anticipated the adjustment and react accordingly. If Boston was just a one-off, it would be one thing, but it's happened against Toronto and Miami, and in serieses he won too. Against good teams, we just can't afford to goof off for full games. When Hill is getting absolutely roasted from minute 1, which shows no sign of abating, he has to be able to scrap that quickly.

Teams will get better. We need to improve the talent pool, but also need to not waste games.

[thomchatt3rton]

RJ and Kendrick Perkins were debating what adjustments Bud could make.

RJ argued that without the personnel, adjustments are pointless—like shooting a water gun from different angles.
Perk said when you’re undermanned is when you need to make adjustments the most.
I think I’m with RJ on this one.

I do agree Carter should’ve gotten run after game 1. That’s for sure. We might’ve stolen the series.

But the fact that it would have had to have been theft says a lot.


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[BigO]

My conclusion that Bud should be replaced rests on two assumptions:

1) The Bucks have the personnel right now to win a championship. Some of you don't believe that, so I understand why you think Bud isn't a problem.

2) There have been consistent Bud moves, detailed over and over, that Bud makes and made again in the Boston series, that prohibited the Bucks from winning. The most egregious, but certainly not the only one was this from John Hollinger in the Athletic:

" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."


Pretty simple: If Bud, because of how the Celtics were tearing apart the drop with Brook in the game, had gone to 100% switching and sat Brook, I think the Bucks win one of the games they lost. It would have been a great feat, given the absence of Middleton, but doable based on the stark discrepancy with Brook on the court. And I have been a big Brook supporter, but facts matter and Bud ignored the facts during the series and refused to change.

[rilamann]

The Celtics series was still winnable but without Middleton our margin of error was much smaller.

Pressure the ball with Carter. More Portis and Pat, less Grayson, Hill and Lopez. Do those simple things and we probably win game 4 or game 6 and win the series. If Bud doesn't get stuck in the mud, we likely win at least 1 more game in the series.

What's frustrating to me is that Bud didn't even give Carter a shot later in the series, even though Carter was a major positive factor in our most convincing win of the series in game 1. If the old vet Hill comes back and you put him in over Carter, ok fine. But when you see Hill out there not being a positive factor, then go back to Carter. If Carter doesn't work out then at least you tried.

[rilamann]

Top 5 regular season coach.
Average playoff coach.

As usual, you nailed it.

No one says more in 1 or 2 sentences than Sigra haha.

[thomchatt3rton]

My conclusion that Bud should be replaced rests on two assumptions:

1) The Bucks have the personnel right now to win a championship. Some of you don't believe that, so I understand why you think Bud isn't a problem.

2) There have been consistent Bud moves, detailed over and over, that Bud makes and made again in the Boston series, that prohibited the Bucks from winning. The most egregious, but certainly not the only one was this from John Hollinger in the Athletic:

" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."


Pretty simple: If Bud, because of how the Celtics were tearing apart the drop with Brook in the game, had gone to 100% switching and sat Brook, I think the Bucks win one of the games they lost. It would have been a great feat, given the absence of Middleton, but doable based on the stark discrepancy with Brook on the court. And I have been a big Brook supporter, but facts matter and Bud ignored the facts during the series and refused to change.

You think we have the personnel, without Middleton, to win a championship?


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[BigO]

My conclusion that Bud should be replaced rests on two assumptions:

1) The Bucks have the personnel right now to win a championship. Some of you don't believe that, so I understand why you think Bud isn't a problem.

2) There have been consistent Bud moves, detailed over and over, that Bud makes and made again in the Boston series, that prohibited the Bucks from winning. The most egregious, but certainly not the only one was this from John Hollinger in the Athletic:

" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."


Pretty simple: If Bud, because of how the Celtics were tearing apart the drop with Brook in the game, had gone to 100% switching and sat Brook, I think the Bucks win one of the games they lost. It would have been a great feat, given the absence of Middleton, but doable based on the stark discrepancy with Brook on the court. And I have been a big Brook supporter, but facts matter and Bud ignored the facts during the series and refused to change.

You think we have the personnel, without Middleton, to win a championship?


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No, of course not. But the Boston series showed that the Bucks could have won that series without him. Matchups are critical in the playoffs. As the series against Boston unfolded, it was clear that without Middleton the Bucks were offensively challenged.

They could have improved marginally offensively by not playing some of the personnel they did so many minutes. But they could have made up for being offenisvely challenged by improving the defense, as per the above quote from Hollinger.

[paulpressey25]

I'm not sure why it is the responsibility of people who believe there's another coach out there who might be more effective to know exactly who that coach is when there are firms and professionals who can make that determination.

It isn't our job. Agreed there.

At the same time, someone should make a list of all the rookie NBA coaches that were hired over the last ten years. Then figure out what percentage became as good as Bud. I'm guessing it is a very low number, but could be wrong.

[DanoMac]

I'm not sure why it is the responsibility of people who believe there's another coach out there who might be more effective to know exactly who that coach is when there are firms and professionals who can make that determination.

It isn't our job. Agreed there.

And thank goodness for that, because if it was, Ettore Messina would’ve been our head coach

[thomchatt3rton]

My conclusion that Bud should be replaced rests on two assumptions:

1) The Bucks have the personnel right now to win a championship. Some of you don't believe that, so I understand why you think Bud isn't a problem.

2) There have been consistent Bud moves, detailed over and over, that Bud makes and made again in the Boston series, that prohibited the Bucks from winning. The most egregious, but certainly not the only one was this from John Hollinger in the Athletic:

" The Bucks were outscored by 19.2 points per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the court in the Boston series, surrendering a jaw-dropping 47.1 3-point attempts per 100 possessions in his minutes.

Boston, meanwhile, ruthlessly exposed the Bucks’ limitations against space ball, starting with Al Horford’s 30-point outburst in Game 4. Horford was so effective standing on the perimeter and waiting for Lopez to wander off that the Bucks instead went to having Lopez guard Grant Williams for Game 7. He and Derrick White were granted as many open 3s as they could handle, the Celtics took an absurd 55 and the Bucks were toast."


Pretty simple: If Bud, because of how the Celtics were tearing apart the drop with Brook in the game, had gone to 100% switching and sat Brook, I think the Bucks win one of the games they lost. It would have been a great feat, given the absence of Middleton, but doable based on the stark discrepancy with Brook on the court. And I have been a big Brook supporter, but facts matter and Bud ignored the facts during the series and refused to change.

You think we have the personnel, without Middleton, to win a championship?


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No, of course not. But the Boston series showed that the Bucks could have won that series without him. Matchups are critical in the playoffs. As the series against Boston unfolded, it was clear that without Middleton the Bucks were offensively challenged.

They could have improved marginally offensively by not playing some of the personnel they did so many minutes. But they could have made up for being offenisvely challenged by improving the defense, as per the above quote from Hollinger.

Ahh gotcha. When you said “some don’t think we have the talent now to win it all” I assumed you meant without Midds…bcuz I think everyone thinks we’re contenders with Khris.

I go back and forth on how good our chances really were to beat Boston w out Khris. I agree we def left some money on the table, we could’ve been better. But whether that was enough to steal the series, I waver.

I feel like Bud got about 80% out of his available roster, roughly. The 20% we left on the table maybe swings it, maybe not.

I think somewhere around game 5 (def by game 6) BOS had us completely and fully figured out. They had an answer and a counter for everything we did, on both ends. They’re a very complete team. If that series magically became a best of 15, we might’ve lost it like 8-4. They got better as it went on.

And Tatum was individually brilliant- no adjustments can really stop him. He single-handedly shut down our best chance to steal the series late in game 6.

What do you think Bud got out of the available roster, if you had to put a percentage on it?


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