Another version of team meeting

[Fort Minor]

Epi has said numerous times that if Bogut could have commanded the double team last year it would have done wonders for the offense. You guys are acting if we went back to the offense from last year that Bogut would get 3 shots a game.

Our offense last year + Bogut commanding a double team = very potent

That works in theory, but why would teams even bother double Bogut if he doesn't even see the ball in the post all the often? Why bother doubling someone that's not a threat?

Bogut was starting to draw double teams in January because of what he was doing when the team actually went to him down low.

I agree that the best option is a happy medium between the two offenses. And I agree that this account makes much more sense, especially, as BucksFan225 pointed out, because of the way the offense operated yesterday.

But like titanx, I laugh at those who say going back to the pure chuck offense because it had "better results last year" is a good thing. Yeah, we were still a mediocre team. We will always be a mediocre team with that offense. When's the last time a team like that won anything of note?

The only way the Bucks can ever win anything significant is if a) Bogut becomes that consistant 20/10 guy that draw double teams and we surround him with players better suited for the catch and shoot game, OR b) Yi becomes something similar to Dirk, which would probably fit the group of guys we have now a little better. BUT, going back to the chuck and go offense of last year will do little to develop both Bogut and Yi. Yi would actually end up shooting even more jumpshots in that offense/. How is that going to aid in him developing an all around game?

I wish Mo and Redd weren't so dumb and realized that them being the focal points of the offense isn't going to get the team anywhere. It never has, unless they feel it's cool that they're .500 as long as they're the guys shooting the ball the most. I'd love to see both of them shipped out now, instead of just Redd.

They want a few more wins? Yeah, well, that's not going to help the franchise out at all.

Too bad...consideing what's gone down I really want to believe europas version, but this one makes so much more sense...which means bad news for the future of the Bucks.

HOORAY MEDIOCRITY!

[BobbyLight]

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Because it hasn't worked producing positive results in the past.

Thats the problem. Everybody from the GM to the Coach needs to win now. If we had just sucked it up, force feeded the ball to Bogut for the last two years, we might not be in this position.

If you think Bogut "got his opportunities" last night, then I just don't know what to say. 2 shots for every quarter, is not "getting opportunities"


We need to build a team for the future. Having good big men = success.

Look at every title thats ever been won. Besides MJ, every single one of them had a dominant big man. I honestly believe Bogut can be dominant at his position. Not sure if he can be dominant enough to win a title, but with the right supporting cast I believe Bogut should be able to take us to the conference finals and from there who knows what can happen.

Read my response to xTitan. That is what I have wanted from the start. Fast offense. Some times it seems like we are playing baseball and just throwing the ball around the horn for no reason. Then somone gets the ball in a terrible position with little time left and takes a bad shot. I just haven't understoof the offense all season and last night we looked good, for once. Bogut didn't get his average shot attempts, but this is just one game with the "new" style. I want to see what happens from here. If Bogut is continutally ignored and we still lose most of our games we end up where we are now. A terrible team.

[rilamann]

but again, wasn't bogut only like 2 shots off his season average?

and if cv was there to score in the post there would have been more inside scoring

Bogut should have gotten more than 8 shots bottomline and with CV out he ecspecially should have gotten more than 8 shots.

Plus keep in mind when I talk about Bogut getting touches im not saying he should get 25 shots or that he should shoot everytime he touches the ball.

I'd like the Bucks to play through Bogut more so our shooters get better looks and higher % shots.Put Bogut in the post and run some basic give & gos even,hell Bogut & Bell executed a beautiful give n go in the Clipper game.

Of course after that Bogut didnt touch the ball agian for awhile.

I would understand your thinking if the Bucks where playing great with the team and offense revolving around Redd & Mo.

If we where winning 50 games or whatever and playing good basketball behind Redd & Mo and I was saying Bogut sould get more touches then yea i'd be in the wrong.But what we are doing isnt working obvoiusly

The team needs more balance and we have the players to do it so why not give it a shot.

[EastSideBucksFan]

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Read my response to xTitan. That is what I have wanted from the start. Fast offense. Some times it seems like we are playing baseball and just throwing the ball around the horn for no reason. Then somone gets the ball in a terrible position with little time left and takes a bad shot. I just haven't understoof the offense all season and last night we looked good, for once. Bogut didn't get his average shot attempts, but this is just one game with the "new" style. I want to see what happens from here. If Bogut is continutally ignored and we still lose most of our games we end up where we are now. A terrible team.

When I called into the pro hoops show with LK on, this is almost exactly what I told him.

We need to speed up the offense. If you look at our efg% it is highest at 0-10 sec in the shot clock and only goes down from there.

Problem is you have to have players who are committed to running. That includes running back on defense. So far, we don't have the players to do this, although in theory this roster should be able to.

[trwi7]

Bogut should have gotten more than 8 shots bottomline and with CV out he ecspecially should have gotten more than 8 shots.

Why? It's not like he made a ton of shots. Again the only players who shot worse than him last night were Ivey and Gadzuric but we should go to him just because?

[BuckFan25226]

While Bogut is drawing more double teams this year. Can we all be honest ourselves and admit he still isn't a guy you should be running an entire offense through? He's simply not a #1 option guy, he isn't.

The only guy on this team who gets consistent double teams is Redd. No, I'm not saying he's the ideal person to run an offense through either.

The truth of the matter is, this team is filled with players who fit an up-temo offense. We have shooters on this team from top to bottom. I don't care how much you want Bogut to get more low post touches, it's not equating to wins. Yes, his numbers have been getting better, anyones would if they get the ball more. I would rather be losing games 111-107 then 85-105 because of some (Please Use More Appropriate Word) half court offense which clearly hasn't worked.

The more up tempo offense will give this team a much better chance to win every single night. We can still use Bogut and still get him touches. But he still isn't a #1 option guy. He can't make free throws, and he can't sniff the rim outside of 5 feet. Any competent Center will get double teamed if he gets low enough.

We are 11-6 when we score 100+ points. We had every opportunity to take down a very good hornets team last night simply because we can score and that's what we focused on, scoring. We all know this team is too young and too weak defensively to play a halfcourt game. So until major changes are made, let's get out and run.

[bentley]

I think that the Sig version of events is rather on the money. That having been said, I believe that everyone is looking in the wrong direction for all of the trade scenarios. Big changes often require big secrecy. Expect a BIG trade--Larry H is fully capable, rumors aside.

Hopefully Larry K can grow as a coach so that he learns endgame versatility, e.g. the Hornets putting the big man on Redd which totally befuddled the Bucks (just last night's example) at the end.

It isn't necessarily a choice of Stotts offense or Larry Ks offense--both can lead to wins---the great teams have versatility. Playing the Hornets with the Stotts offense was correct for that game. In the game of chess you must always consider what the other player/team can do to you not simply what your plan of attack is--the current coaching staff is not yet capable of that.

There is no championship DNA surrounding the franchise.

[Fort Minor]

I agree that Bogut isn't a #1 option. But I'd rather take the chance of developing him than become complacent with the guys we have and become a mediocre team for the next decade.

I'm all for finding that happy medium, but I don't think LK is a coach that can achieve that.

[BuckFan25226]

but again, wasn't bogut only like 2 shots off his season average?

and if cv was there to score in the post there would have been more inside scoring

Bogut should have gotten more than 8 shots bottomline and with CV out he ecspecially should have gotten more than 8 shots.
.

What is your frickin' obsession with "shots"??? It's not that difficult to figure out why he's not getting more towards 14-18 shots a game like the star big men in this league, he has absolutely no game outside of the paint.

When Bogut goes in and is hitting his baby jump hook in the lane one game, teams will start to adjust, double team, deny him the ball. Now, if Bogut had a face up game and a mid range jump shot, he could adjust and step back and go to that, or a little fadeaway jump shot, he doesn't have any of that.

Look at Tyson Chandler. He only gets 8 shots per game and scores 1 less point per game then Bogut. When Chandler gets it low, he's very effective, just like Bogut, just like most competent centers who can finish around the rim. Why doesn't Chandler get more shots?? Because he doesn't have a game outside of the lane.

Look at Dwight Howard. He averages 1 more shot per game then Bogut. Wait, why doesn't Howard get more shots Orland fans ask? SVG must be an idiot! No, He doesn't have much game outside of the lane. Guys like Duncan, Garnett, Bosh get more shots per game because they have more of an arsenal.

As I've said before, we aren't playing against chairs. I suppose if we were, going to Bogut in the low block would work most of the time. Unfortunately, we're playing against people. Those people are basketball players who are told by their coach to keep Bogut away from the basket because he's not effective unless he gets it low. I'm sorry, but that's the reality.

[blkout]

I think people get running the offense through someone confused with someone being the number one option. Vlade Divac was never the number one option anywhere but he had the offense run through him in Sacramento because of his passing ability/court awareness/basketball IQ... that didn't mean he was the go-to man, just the guy who made the offensive side of things flow.

Edit: I've never actually compared them before, but Bogut vs Divac is an interesting one. They came into the league at the same age, Divac didn't start in his first season but in the two afterwards he did. Here is a brief comparison:

Bogut:

9/7/2
12/9/3
13/9/2

Divac:

8/6/1
11/8/1
11/7/2

Vlade was always superior with his defensive stats (steals, blocks) and shot a better FT%, but there is still hope.

[trwi7]

As I've said before, we aren't playing against chairs. I suppose if we were, going to Bogut in the low block would work most of the time.

Yi is a competent post player against chairs. Sorry, just had to use that one.

[Nowak008]

Are you defending the Chuck and pray offense?

You do realize that we were one of the top teams in scoring in the paint last year right?

That works in theory, but why would teams even bother double Bogut if he doesn't even see the ball in the post all the often? Why bother doubling someone that's not a threat?

You guys are acting like if the offense is more uptempo that Boguts shots will disappear. Big men get shots in up tempo offenses if they deserve them. Bogut will still get his touches. He played against one of best defensive centers in the league and struggled, it happens.

[rilamann]

[quote="BuckFan25226"][/quote]


I agree Bogut has to develop more of an offensive game like being able to hit a mid range jumper and developing some more effective post moves I understand that but I still belive he should get more than 8 shots a game.

But im not realy about shots with Bogut im more about ''touches'' im sure you read my post a few posts above and see my sig its something i've always said when it comes to Bogut.

Its more about touches than shots.

And just because a team makes some adjustments and sends doubles doesnt mean you ignore the guy,you have to make counter adjustments and if a guy is getting doubled down low obviously that will open up higher % shots for other guys on the court.

Why would you stop giving your center the ball when he is getting doubled? That is downright (Please Use More Appropriate Word).Ecspecially when you have an unselfish center than can pass the ball,that makes it even worse.

[BuckFan25226]

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I agree Bogut has to develop more of an offensive game like being able to hit a mid range jumper and developing some more effective post moves I understand that but I still belive he should get more than 8 shots a game.

But im not realy about shots with Bogut im more about ''touches'' im sure you read my post a few posts above and see my sig its something i've always said when it comes to Bogut.

Its more about touches than shots.

And just because a team makes some adjustments and sends doubles doesnt mean you ignore the guy,you have to make counter adjustments and if a guy is getting doubled down low obviously that will open up higher % shots for other guys on the court.

Why would you stop giving your center the ball when he is getting doubled? That is downright (Please Use More Appropriate Word).Ecspecially when you have an unselfish center than can pass the ball,that makes it even worse.

He can get touches in an uptempo offense, he can get plenty of them.

[schweig]

I just saw this video last night of Shaq on youtube, making fun of Vlade and calling him a no-name to the tune of the Cheers theme song. I guess Vlade had said the Lakers couldn't win without home-court, one of the years they went into Sacramento and beat them.

At first I just laughed, and then I realized the possibly best player on our team will be having himself a nice little career if it rounds out anything like Divac, and then thought about how it'll be a long time before we see some contending basketball.

[rilamann]

Vlade is a great example of one of those guys who never put up monster numbers but had a huge impact on every team he played on.

[moistie]

Really, you mean there is no other possible way that some of the shots Bogut took in these loses couldn't have been made by another player. If Bogut has less 10+ shot games, who is to say what our record is. Take 50% of Boguts 10+ games and give half those shots to someone else, there is no telling what happens.

This season in games where Bogut has shot less than 10 times the Bucks record is 6 wins from 22 games. When he gets above 10 touches a game the Bucks are 13 wins from 31 games.

So you're advocating the Bucks should go with a system that gives them under 28% wins rather than one that yields 41%? If you want to use a simple analysis to blame Bogut for the Bucks problems, then at least use one that supports your case.

[paul]

The anti-Bogut brigade are getting back in gear already? That was quick.

Thanks for the info Sigra, good to get a slightly different take, hard to know which one is reality, particularly given Europa is seen to not be a big fan of Mo and this person apparantly doesn't like Bogut. Although I do give a lot of credence to the fact that Buckskins confirmed Europas account.

Either way I'm not sure it sounds a ton better for Mo though does it?
I might have read this wrong, but does it seem to anyone else like in the first place Mo is arguing for the guards to get more play on offense (which of course includes him), Bogut then says he thinks we should stick with inside out and Mo cuts him down, accuses him of being after his money and tells him to stfu?
Is it just me, or does mo sound even more selfish in this account? He wants to go back to last years offense and get the guards more and quicker looks, which everyone who's ever watched a game of basketball in their life knows will take this team absolutely nowhere in the long term, then cuts down someone who wants the team to try to develop what most believe is the right way to play offense by saying he's only after money?

If Mo truly thinks that last years offense, which I believe was only ever a stopgap even in TS's mind, is the way to move forward and win for this team, well then he's a f***ing moron, and I don't think Mo's a moron, so what is his motivation? Nice line about us winning using the offense last year btw, ha ha.

Two things happen if we revert to that offense. First we blow for the next however many years it takes for Herb to realise LK is a shocking head coach, and second Bogut takes his first ticket the hell out of here. But maybe that's what needs to happen, seriously.
Trade Bogut for a SF and start Danny G, let the guards do as they please. Bogut would be stoked and would flourish in an organization that wasn't brain dead, and the bucks would spend the next 5 years winning 35 games, perfect.

By the way kudos LK, if this account of the meeting is correct your a worse coach than even I thought. Coaching by consensus is what every succesfull head coach does isn't it? As is changing the entire offensive strategy 3 times in half a season. We've got a keeper here guys.

[jerrod]

so mo is selfish, and a moron because he thinks the team should go back to it's highly rated offense instead of of this abomination?

[blkout]

Highly rated? In what sense?