Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

aboveAverage · Post #1241 » by **aboveAverage** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:52 pm

humanrefutation wrote:I mean, truthfully, it might turn out that the best course of action was to let Bledsoe walk and keep Middleton and Brogdon.

George Hill
Brogdon
Middleton
Giannis
Brook

Who says no to that right now?

emunney · Post #1242 » by **emunney** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:54 pm

aboveAverage wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:I mean, truthfully, it might turn out that the best course of action was to let Bledsoe walk and keep Middleton and Brogdon.

George Hill
Brogdon
Middleton
Giannis
Brook

Who says no to that right now?

Not me! But I also don't say no to what we have.

DingleJerry · Post #1243 » by **DingleJerry** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:55 pm

humanrefutation wrote:My problem right now is that I have yet to see any evidence which justifies paying Middleton twice as much as what Brogdon got from Indy. With Middleton, the arguments in his favor - of which there are legitimate ones - have been more theoretical than actual.

Yea I feel like I stayed out of this convo for the most part. Generally get what they did in regards to Brogdon, when you were getting picks back and everything I get it all.

But yea one of the basic things we all could probably agree on is that the guys after Giannis were all more or less equal. No clear #2 guy and any one of the 4 guys could step be the #2 on any night. Yet one guy was worth double the rest according to the market?

One thing I was definitely wrong on is what contract Mid would end up with, but I still wonder if tougher negotiating could've helped.

Post #1244 » by **humanrefutation** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:56 pm

aboveAverage wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:I mean, truthfully, it might turn out that the best course of action was to let Bledsoe walk and keep Middleton and Brogdon.

George Hill
Brogdon
Middleton
Giannis
Brook

Who says no to that right now?

I don't, but it would be dishonest of me to suggest that I wasn't happy with the Bledsoe contract.

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #1245 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:58 pm

humanrefutation wrote:
aboveAverage wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:I mean, truthfully, it might turn out that the best course of action was to let Bledsoe walk and keep Middleton and Brogdon.

George Hill
Brogdon
Middleton
Giannis
Brook

Who says no to that right now?

I don't, but it would be dishonest of me to suggest that I wasn't happy with the Bledsoe contract.

This scenario assumes there was no risk in not signing Bledsoe before the playoffs and losing 2/3 or all 3 of Hill, Bledsoe and Malcolm.

Post #1246 » by **humanrefutation** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:03 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
aboveAverage wrote:
George Hill
Brogdon
Middleton
Giannis
Brook

Who says no to that right now?

I don't, but it would be dishonest of me to suggest that I wasn't happy with the Bledsoe contract.

This scenario assumes there was no risk in not signing Bledsoe before the playoffs and losing 2/3 or all 3 of Hill, Bledsoe and Malcolm.

Not sure what risk you're citing there. We had Brogdon's rights and Hill re-signed with us. And Bledsoe was trash during the playoffs, so...not sure he could have been worse?

GHOSTofSIKMA · Post #1247 » by **GHOSTofSIKMA** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:05 pm

TS% thru 4 games

Hill .665
PatC .624
Wes .579
Korver .718
Khris .626

Brogdon .571 much higher volume hes looked good but easily cost indy the Detroit game bricking several wide open 3s any one of them wins the game. that's the one I watched the most of.

basically point is whether brogdon was here or not it has nothing to do with why weve won or lost. the guys playing his minutes have been ON FIRE!! what was he supposed ton be doing out there .800 TS5 or something? seriously?

we need to work the mindset of this team out when we get up big. our offense has been generally fine when were patient and horrendous when we aren't. our defensive schemes have looked alternating good and bad. that's on the coaches to fix. teams are solving us on defense and it might be time for a different look. the last time we had a top defense we fell off a cliff the 2nd year with the exact same personnel. we stuck with it too long. this isn't about brogdon imo. I think its on bud more than anybody. if you cant win with half the roster shooting out of their mind and almost the entire roster capable of laying pretty solid to all nba straight up defense then something is going on

DavidDunn21 · Post #1248 » by **DavidDunn21** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:21 pm

One of the big problems that I have with the current state of analysis is people are looking at the league like we used to. Playoff chokers and clutch performers. That only matters with stars now. Stars in the sense of All-NBA stars. Everybody else is just forced to gun 3's when slightly open. If they get hot, great. If they go cold, it sucks.

If Pat or Brook or anyone else who is a medium shooter on this team makes 20 of their next 30 3s over a few weeks, it DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. If it happens to take place in the playoffs, IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.
Khris in 2018 against the Celtics DIDN'T MEAN ANYTHING. Mirotic going cold last year DIDN'T MEAN ANYTHING.

So with that being said, why isn't Mirotic on the team? He's just another guy who might be hot. Whatever the cap ramifications, we'd be far better right now paying Malcolm what he got and getting a bunch of other quality players. We could've let Khris walk, or we could've offered him what he's actually worth. But what would Belicheck have done?

Until we understand this change, we will languish. Our guys aren't any better than any other team's guys. We needed flexibility. Instead we gave Khris Middleton all the money and expected him to age like wine. We need to learn this lesson.

Post #1249 » by **paulpressey25** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:24 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:This scenario assumes there was no risk in not signing Bledsoe before the playoffs and losing 2/3 or all 3 of Hill, Bledsoe and Malcolm.

Correct. Bledsoe ended up first team all-defense. He was critical to that scheme last year.

And if they went into free agency not having at least one puzzle piece solved, they would have been screwed.

Signing Bledsoe when they did, to the money they did ($54mm guaranteed) was an extremely defensible position IMO.

PG Graveyard · Post #1250 » by **PG Graveyard** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:32 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:TS% thru 4 games

Hill .665
PatC .624
Wes .579
Korver .718
Khris .626

Brogdon .571 much higher volume hes looked good but easily cost indy the Detroit game bricking several wide open 3s any one of them wins the game. that's the one I watched the most of.

basically point is whether brogdon was here or not it has nothing to do with why weve won or lost. the guys playing his minutes have been ON FIRE!! what was he supposed ton be doing out there .800 TS5 or something? seriously?

we need to work the mindset of this team out when we get up big. our offense has been generally fine when were patient and horrendous when we aren't. our defensive schemes have looked alternating good and bad. that's on the coaches to fix. teams are solving us on defense and it might be time for a different look. the last time we had a top defense we fell off a cliff the 2nd year with the exact same personnel. we stuck with it too long. this isn't about brogdon imo. I think its on bud more than anybody. if you cant win with half the roster shooting out of their mind and almost the entire roster capable of laying pretty solid to all nba straight up defense then something is going on

The problem hasn't been the replacements, but the regression of Bledsoe since Toronto gave him a wedgie. Bledsoe needs to be the guy that gets to the hoop and puts pressure on the defense. He also needs to get his jumper back in some capacity.

PG Graveyard · Post #1251 » by **PG Graveyard** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:34 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:This scenario assumes there was no risk in not signing Bledsoe before the playoffs and losing 2/3 or all 3 of Hill, Bledsoe and Malcolm.

Correct. Bledsoe ended up first team all-defense. He was critical to that scheme last year.

And if they went into free agency not having at least one puzzle piece solved, they would have been screwed.

Signing Bledsoe when they did, to the money they did ($54mm guaranteed) was an extremely defensible position IMO.

Yeah there is nothing wrong with that contract....Especially at that time. I believe Bledsoe is the 19th highest paid PG in the league. Completely defensible. Of course now he has lost all confidence and with our luck he probably will never get it back.

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #1252 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:38 pm

humanrefutation wrote:
MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
I don't, but it would be dishonest of me to suggest that I wasn't happy with the Bledsoe contract.

This scenario assumes there was no risk in not signing Bledsoe before the playoffs and losing 2/3 or all 3 of Hill, Bledsoe and Malcolm.

Not sure what risk you're citing there. We had Brogdon's rights and Hill re-signed with us. And Bledsoe was trash during the playoffs, so...not sure he could have been worse?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there was any truth to MB not wanting to come back he could've sign Day 1 and screwed up all our other additions -Hill, Lopez, Matthews, Bledsoe, Korver, Lopez?

HaroldinGMinor · Post #1253 » by **HaroldinGMinor** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:40 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:This scenario assumes there was no risk in not signing Bledsoe before the playoffs and losing 2/3 or all 3 of Hill, Bledsoe and Malcolm.

Correct. Bledsoe ended up first team all-defense. He was critical to that scheme last year.

And if they went into free agency not having at least one puzzle piece solved, they would have been screwed.

Signing Bledsoe when they did, to the money they did ($54mm guaranteed) was an extremely defensible position IMO.

I don't recall a whole lot of backlash around here after that deal was made.

Post #1254 » by **humanrefutation** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:44 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:This scenario assumes there was no risk in not signing Bledsoe before the playoffs and losing 2/3 or all 3 of Hill, Bledsoe and Malcolm.

Not sure what risk you're citing there. We had Brogdon's rights and Hill re-signed with us. And Bledsoe was trash during the playoffs, so...not sure he could have been worse?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there was any truth to MB not wanting to come back he could've sign Day 1 and screwed up all our other additions -Hill, Lopez, Matthews, Bledsoe, Korver, Lopez?

We could have waited the three days to match, though. And as we had most of those deals done pretty much right away, I'm not sure that's a legitimate concern.

ackypoo · Post #1255 » by **ackypoo** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:01 pm

bledsoes hurt
brogdons a poor mans kyrie, has zero vision, that lends itself to losing basketball

and this thread is trash.

Baddy Chuck · Post #1256 » by **Baddy Chuck** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:03 pm

You don't break up a 60 win core because years from now money might be tight based on the ASSUMPTION that your star stays.

I'd be lying if I said I thought Brogdon would see this much success, and maybe he doesn't keep it up, but he should have been retained at almost any cost.

And Brogdon.

blazza18 · Post #1257 » by **blazza18** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:11 pm

Still believe the Brogdon decision can turn in our favour if we're able to get a good rotation player with the Pacers pick.

Ayt · Post #1258 » by **Ayt** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:22 pm

ackypoo wrote:bledsoes hurt
brogdons a poor mans kyrie, has zero vision, that lends itself to losing basketball

and this thread is trash.

The guy with zero vision leads the league in assists.

Jstock12 · Post #1259 » by **Jstock12** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:43 pm

Ayt wrote:
ackypoo wrote:bledsoes hurt
brogdons a poor mans kyrie, has zero vision, that lends itself to losing basketball

and this thread is trash.

The guy with zero vision leads the league in assists.

Give me a whole team of guys with zero vision like this: https://streamable.com/wvdon

Ayt · Post #1260 » by **Ayt** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:51 pm

Jstock12 wrote:
Ayt wrote:
ackypoo wrote:bledsoes hurt
brogdons a poor mans kyrie, has zero vision, that lends itself to losing basketball

and this thread is trash.

The guy with zero vision leads the league in assists.

Give me a whole team of guys with zero vision like this: https://streamable.com/wvdon

In fairness, he dominates the ball for Indy. He's 5th in the league in time of possession per game. They basically just spam pick and rolls with him. Still, he's played really well from what I've watched considering the roster around him. They desperately need shooting at the SG and SF positions.