Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

[blazza18]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

Jrue is far better than Bledsoe and Hill.
Jrue is at slightly better than Middleton.

Jrue is NOT better than Middleton, and there's not a whole lot to suggest he's FAR BETTER than Bledsoe. I've argued this to death. Go ahead, look below and tell me that one of these guys is FAR better than the other.

Per 100 possessions
25.3 points, 7.8 rebounds, 9.1 assists, 1.6 steals, 47.5% FG, 34.4% 3PT, 79% FT
25.5 points, 6.4 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.2 steals, 45.5% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 71% FT

BPM
1.8
1.8

VORP
1.6
2.0

WS/48
.157
.088

RPM
2.11
3.11

RAPM
1.58
1.41

PIPM
3.52
1.73

TPA
68.48
82.33

RAPTOR
2.6
4.7

I find this an hilarious way to analyse/evaluate which player is better.

[Turk Nowitzki]

I'm team Skones on this one. It has nothing to do with Jrue being a bad player, but there's a narrative around him building him up to be something he's not.

[FlagsFlyForever]

Stop acting like Bledsoe is the same player in the playoffs

He literally is the same player. I've heard people say that about so many players over the years and the players generally always revert to their level of regular season performance. Bledsoe has played 679 games in his career and you're judging him based on 24 of them. I don't believe Bledsoe is incapable of performing in the playoffs just like I don't believe Giannis is either.

[skones]

I find this an hilarious way to analyse/evaluate which player is better.

Cool, well I tend to move towards, if ALL of this data, when calculated in different ways, ends up putting them on the same plane as players, that's a lot of smoke to argue against. I mostly find it hilarious that you think the above comment is an actual contribution to a thread.

[blazza18]

I find this an hilarious way to analyse/evaluate which player is better.

Cool, well I tend to move towards, if ALL of this data, when calculated in different ways, ends up putting them on the same plane as players, that's a lot of smoke to argue against. I mostly find it hilarious that you think the above comment is an actual contribution to a thread.

For sure. I'm not saying you're wrong in using everything given to you. Just funny to me.

And yea don't mind me. Carry on...

[Prez]

Stop acting like Bledsoe is the same player in the playoffs

He literally is the same player. I've heard people say that about so many players over the years and the players generally always revert to their level of regular season performance. Bledsoe has played 679 games in his career and you're judging him based on 24 of them. I don't believe Bledsoe is incapable of performing in the playoffs just like I don't believe Giannis is either.

No, no he is not. During his time with the Bucks -

Regular season:
57.7% TS
2.6 BPM
19.0 PER
.148 WS/48

Playoffs:
49.4% TS
-0.8 BPM
13.4 PER
.059 WS/48

In the 3 series the Bucks got eliminated in (17 games): 12/4/4 on 45% TS

The man went from getting all star consideration in multiple regular seasons with the Bucks to being an offensive liability at various points in the playoffs. He absolutely was not the same player. If you want to believe 4th time's a charm then okay but I would hope the organization is quicker to move on than that and thankfully they were.

[H2tObes]

Stop acting like Bledsoe is the same player in the playoffs

He literally is the same player. I've heard people say that about so many players over the years and the players generally always revert to their level of regular season performance. Bledsoe has played 679 games in his career and you're judging him based on 24 of them. I don't believe Bledsoe is incapable of performing in the playoffs just like I don't believe Giannis is either.

Nope he clearly isn't, and it's almost definitely related to some sort of performance anxiety + how defense changes in playoffs. When you are that consistently terrible in the playoffs for 24+ games across 3 seasons (which really isn't a small playoff sample size), while being a consistently good regular season player there is obviously something going on there.

Also, Giannis is still a really good player in the playoffs, just hasn't been good enough to carry us to a title yet. Not really comparable to Bledsoe who is consistently terrible in the playoffs and 31 years old

[Ayt]

I'm team Skones on this one. It has nothing to do with Jrue being a bad player, but there's a narrative around him building him up to be something he's not.

The narrative that he's vastly superior to playoff Bledsoe?

[Ayt]

Stop acting like Bledsoe is the same player in the playoffs

He literally is the same player. I've heard people say that about so many players over the years and the players generally always revert to their level of regular season performance. Bledsoe has played 679 games in his career and you're judging him based on 24 of them. I don't believe Bledsoe is incapable of performing in the playoffs just like I don't believe Giannis is either.

No, no he is not. During his time with the Bucks -

Regular season:
57.7% TS
2.6 BPM
19.0 PER
.148 WS/48

Playoffs:
49.4% TS
-0.8 BPM
13.4 PER
.059 WS/48

In the 3 series the Bucks got eliminated in (17 games): 12/4/4 on 45% TS

The man went from getting all star consideration in multiple regular seasons with the Bucks to being an offensive liability at various points in the playoffs. He absolutely was not the same player. If you want to believe 4th time's a charm then okay but I would hope the organization is quicker to move on than that and thankfully they were.

People can use the term "unplayable" as hyperbole when it comes to sports, but in the case of Bledsoe it is true.

[buckboy]

Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

This is easy. We'll find out come playoff time. And I'd bet on the answer being that Holiday is a clear cut above Bledsoe at that time.

Pretty obvious answer.

[buckboy]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

That is not what NBA players think.

I, literally, do not care what NBA players think. Have you actually heard former players' opinions? They're off the wall.

Never mind that NBA players thinking his being underrated ALSO has to do with his defensive acumen and ability to find teammates. It's how he impacts the game to such a high degree, NOT half court creation for himself.

He's not signing guys.

[tski1972]

On the surface Bledsoe and Holiday are very similar, we’ll just have to wait until the playoffs to see if the Bucks overpaid or not......

....Even though we know the Bucks overpaid.

[skones]

That is not what NBA players think.

I, literally, do not care what NBA players think. Have you actually heard former players' opinions? They're off the wall.

Never mind that NBA players thinking his being underrated ALSO has to do with his defensive acumen and ability to find teammates. It's how he impacts the game to such a high degree, NOT half court creation for himself.

He's not signing guys.

Wow, so sad I was wrong! You're an idiot. Why you would give someone **** for not thinking he's going to sign the Supermax when you root for the same franchise is beyond me, but hey, looks like you didn't think he was either! Fun!

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2029107&p=87082545#p87082545

[paulpressey25]

I'm team Skones on this one. It has nothing to do with Jrue being a bad player, but there's a narrative around him building him up to be something he's not.

Over the past three years, I never once thought to myself “yeah, we need to go all in and get Jrue Holiday. He’d massively upgrade our PG situation and help put us over the top for a title”

Thought that about Chris Paul however.

[HKPackFan]

I liked the idea of Jrue and DJ A on the court together. We saw a little of it these last two games... It wasn't mind blowing or anything, but I'd like to see them keep trying it out.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

if jrue can match bIedsoes reguIar season production and maintain it in the pIayoffs it wiII be a massive upgrade as it reIates to a titIe. bIedsoe was a heII of a reg season pIayer for us and thats why this comparo Iooks the way it does. unfortunateIy we couIdnt afford to see his pIayoff sampIe size grow any Iarger. to me he struggIed with performance anxiety in a very strange way. that anxiety was odd. it was sad. it was rare. and it was unfortunate.

[Turk Nowitzki]

I'm team Skones on this one. It has nothing to do with Jrue being a bad player, but there's a narrative around him building him up to be something he's not.

The narrative that he's vastly superior to playoff Bledsoe?

Being better than playoff Bledsoe doesn't tell you much about a player. That's a low low bar to clear.

[tedbrogen]

Do people feel Jrue is better in a full switch situation than Bledsoe?

It seemed to me a lot of Bledsoe's value on defense was being able to fight over screens so they could keep using the drop zone. He seemed to get exposed at times when they went full switch because he would get posted up inside and it lead to easy scores or him fouling in the post. To me he doesn't seem to be a great post defender on anyone taller than him.

Jrue has a few inches on Bledsoe and seems to not get destroyed in the post on switches.

Wondering what everyone else thinks.

[skones]

Do people feel Jrue is better in a full switch situation than Bledsoe?

It seemed to me a lot of Bledsoe's value on defense was being able to fight over screens so they could keep using the drop zone. He seemed to get exposed at times when they went full switch because he would get posted up inside and it lead to easy scores or him fouling in the post. To me he doesn't seem to be a great post defender on anyone taller than him.

Jrue has a few inches on Bledsoe and seems to not get destroyed in the post on switches.

Wondering what everyone else thinks.

Jrue is very very strong. He's able to shed and absorb contact with relative ease. It'll end up frustrating us to a degree on the offensive end as he'll leave extra points on the board by avoiding contact around the rim, opting instead for a finesse finish.

On the defensive end, he's a more calculated defender than Bledsoe's harassing, in your face, all strength, length, and athleticism. He's got an edge on Bledsoe when it comes to overall team defending IQ, and that DOES make him better suited for situations where switching is involved. Given his size, his positional versatility allows him to hold his own better the deeper he gets into a half court set. Your observation is accurate.

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[FlagsFlyForever]

Stop acting like Bledsoe is the same player in the playoffs

He literally is the same player. I've heard people say that about so many players over the years and the players generally always revert to their level of regular season performance. Bledsoe has played 679 games in his career and you're judging him based on 24 of them. I don't believe Bledsoe is incapable of performing in the playoffs just like I don't believe Giannis is either.

No, no he is not. During his time with the Bucks -

Regular season:
57.7% TS
2.6 BPM
19.0 PER
.148 WS/48

Playoffs:
49.4% TS
-0.8 BPM
13.4 PER
.059 WS/48

In the 3 series the Bucks got eliminated in (17 games): 12/4/4 on 45% TS

The man went from getting all star consideration in multiple regular seasons with the Bucks to being an offensive liability at various points in the playoffs. He absolutely was not the same player. If you want to believe 4th time's a charm then okay but I would hope the organization is quicker to move on than that and thankfully they were.

So we're only talking about the series when the Bucks were eliminated. It's an opinion based on less than the 24 games I had said. It's based on 35% of Bledsoe's playoff career. One year you count the 1st round. The next year you don't count the 1st or 2nd rounds but only count the 3rd round. But then the third year you do count the 2nd round. You're using a very random selection of evidence to support your claim. I could find players who choke every year from January 10th-20th if I looked.

The old adage goes those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it. From 2003-2008 in series when the Mavs were eliminated (31 games), Dirk averaged 24.0 ppg on .431 FG% and .311 3P%. People said Dirk wasn't a playoff performer. He's too soft and folds under pressure. Then from 2009-2011, Dirk averaged 27.3 ppg on .503 FG%, .423 3P%, and a Finals MVP.

From 2010-2016 in series when OKC was eliminated from the playoffs (34 games), Durant averaged 18.7 ppg on .438 FG% and .313 3P%. Since then, he's been a historically great Finals performer averaging 30.2 ppg on .545 FG%, .476 3P%, and two Finals MVPs.

LeBron was once considered incapable of winning on the big stage in his first stint in Cleveland. Kyle Lowry used to be viewed as a notorious playoff choke artist. Bledsoe is hardly unique in attracting criticism for his playoff performances. He would only be unique if he doesn't revert to the mean.