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Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid

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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1281 » by breakchains » Tue May 27, 2014 3:05 am

ReasonablySober wrote:
breakchains wrote:Who is the David West clone with deep range? Given we're talking about top prospects, I'm guessing you're referring to Vonleh? Don't see the West comparison - that actually made me think of Payne.


Vonleh's the better athlete, but they're the same size, length and have similar skills.

West is awesome, obviously. If Vonleh has West's career he'll be a huge success. But with his athleticism and range he could be even better.

I see Vonleh more of an Aldridge/Bosh sort of hybrid, in terms of style. Not saying he get be there, but that's who I view him stylistically as, and as a "ceiling," if you want to go that route.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1282 » by Bernman » Tue May 27, 2014 3:27 am

Waukee Taukee wrote:Wiggins is already a better offensive player than any you mention above. He basically matches Parker as a spot up shooter. He just needs to tighten his handle and develop a few go-to moves (similar to when Kobe came into the league). I have much greater faith in a prospect developing his offensive game at the next level than his defense...

Parker will impact games with his scoring as a rookie but, IMO, Wiggins could pay much larger dividends two to three years from now. A better two-way prospect.


Wiggins is not a better offensive player than Childress already. He's worse. His last year at Stanford, Childress averaged more points pace adjusted per 40 (21.3 to 20), on a higher ts% (60 to 56), and posted a much higher assist rate (3.6 to 1.9). He also hit more 3's (2 to 1.4) and shot a higher percentage on them (39.5 to 34.1). Childress' PER was 27.7 to Wiggins' 21.6. That's all in spite Wiggins getting a couple star calls per game (I don't care what any Wiggins fanatic here says, I'll side with the neutral announcers who pointed it out). So Wiggins has a ways to go to even be Josh Childress offensively, although in fairness he's got a couple years extra of development to catch up.

As far as you saying you'd prefer a prospect has to develop his offense rather than defense, that's asinine. You're just blatantly confirming a bias by making that statement. Defense is a large part effort and anticipation. You can become a decent defender without good athleticism. Aaron Craft was a great defender as a mediocre athlete. Whereas there are so many more facets to offense. You need to dribble, shoot, pass, set up your man, wade thru multiple defenders on drives, etc. Jump shooting is the only aspect you typically see players discernibly improve from college to NBA. With dribbling, making moves, and reading held defender movement to score off drives or set up passes, what you saw prior to NBA is more or less what you're likely to get in the NBA.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1283 » by chonestown » Tue May 27, 2014 3:32 am

ReasonablySober wrote:I've been down on Parker, relatively speaking, for most of the year. It isn't because he isn't a good prospect, it's just that in this class I err on the side of

• a 7'1" monster big man
• a 6'8" SG who'll be among the most athletic professional athletes in the world the second he signs a contract
• a 6'6" point guard with a crazy quick first step

I might be inclined to add a David West clone with deep range ideally suited to the modern NBA.

Parker's a great prospect. If the Bucks took him #2 I'd be disappointed, but I'd be confident they took a kid who could some day be a top 20 player.


My thoughts nearly word-to-word.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1284 » by Waukee Taukee » Tue May 27, 2014 4:48 am

Bernman wrote:
Waukee Taukee wrote:Wiggins is already a better offensive player than any you mention above. He basically matches Parker as a spot up shooter. He just needs to tighten his handle and develop a few go-to moves (similar to when Kobe came into the league). I have much greater faith in a prospect developing his offensive game at the next level than his defense...

Parker will impact games with his scoring as a rookie but, IMO, Wiggins could pay much larger dividends two to three years from now. A better two-way prospect.


Wiggins is not a better offensive player than Childress already. He's worse. His last year at Stanford, Childress averaged more points pace adjusted per 40 (21.3 to 20), on a higher ts% (60 to 56), and posted a much higher assist rate (3.6 to 1.9). He also hit more 3's (2 to 1.4) and shot a higher percentage on them (39.5 to 34.1). Childress' PER was 27.7 to Wiggins' 21.6. That's all in spite Wiggins getting a couple star calls per game (I don't care what any Wiggins fanatic here says, I'll side with the neutral announcers who pointed it out). So Wiggins has a ways to go to even be Josh Childress offensively, although in fairness he's got a couple years extra of development to catch up.

As far as you saying you'd prefer a prospect has to develop his offense rather than defense, that's asinine. You're just blatantly confirming a bias by making that statement. Defense is a large part effort and anticipation. You can become a decent defender without good athleticism. Aaron Craft was a great defender as a mediocre athlete. Whereas there are so many more facets to offense. You need to dribble, shoot, pass, set up your man, wade thru multiple defenders on drives, etc. Jump shooting is the only aspect you typically see players discernibly improve from college to NBA. With dribbling, making moves, and reading held defender movement to score off drives or set up passes, what you saw prior to NBA is more or less what you're likely to get in the NBA.


Maybe it's a bit disingenuous to compare the offensive production of an 18 year old college frosh to a 21 year old junior since the latter had two extra seasons to develop as a scorer.

With regards to the offense v. defense thing, i don't think it's "asinine" (and it's clear we both have our biases). I'm not of the school that says elite athleticism is absolutely necessary to defend well. Athleticism helps but solid defense is possible with positioning, anticipation and effort. My issue with Parker is that he hasn't shown much interest on this end of the court during his time at Duke. Under Coach K, no less. What makes him suddenly dial in as a stopper after he's been anointed franchise golden boy, averaging 20ppg? -Smells like Glenn Robinson.

The discussion over whether Parker can become an adequate defender also glosses over the fact that Wiggins is already poised to become an elite defender that we can sic on troublesome PGs, SGs, or SFs. The fact that he's an elite defender means that I can still give him big minutes on the court while he develops his offense. Paired with our length inside and you have a young team with a defensive identity that can get out on the break in transition. Adding Parker gives you immediate scoring help but he probably waters down the defensive potential of our young roster. Just my opinion. We can always agree to disagree.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1285 » by arizonabuck » Tue May 27, 2014 7:22 am

you take Embiid or Wiggins, whoever is left. Milwaukee needs a superstar to ever win a championship and the only way to get him is through the draft. Parker will never be that. I'd take Exum before Parker because he has that potential too.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1286 » by mattg » Tue May 27, 2014 8:05 am

breakchains wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
breakchains wrote:Who is the David West clone with deep range? Given we're talking about top prospects, I'm guessing you're referring to Vonleh? Don't see the West comparison - that actually made me think of Payne.


Vonleh's the better athlete, but they're the same size, length and have similar skills.

West is awesome, obviously. If Vonleh has West's career he'll be a huge success. But with his athleticism and range he could be even better.

I see Vonleh more of an Aldridge/Bosh sort of hybrid, in terms of style. Not saying he get be there, but that's who I view him stylistically as, and as a "ceiling," if you want to go that route.

I don't see that with vonleh, he's not as creative or diverse in terms of his offensive skillset as those guys. Vonleh gets called boring by a lot of people because his game is pretty basic and fundamental, leveraging good positioning, seals, and footwork to score most of his points. He can step outside and hit the J like bosh or Aldridge but stylistically I think they're pretty different. Those 2 like to catch and immediately face from the mid or high post and use their J and combination of first step and ball handling to manufacture points. I think the David west comparison makes more sense not only in terms of body type but style as well as vonleh plays more in the paint than either LMA or Bosh(even in his raptor days).
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1287 » by Tug0bwerdna » Tue May 27, 2014 10:55 am

The only successful pick IMO is Parker, you want a superstar that would stay in Milwaukee. Being that he is from Chicago, I think he would.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1288 » by MadBlueEdwards » Tue May 27, 2014 11:20 am

Tug0bwerdna wrote:The only successful pick IMO is Parker, you want a superstar that would stay in Milwaukee. Being that he is from Chicago, I think he would.


I don't think we should worry about whether a given player is more likely to stay in Milwaukee than another guy. If we're a contending team by the time the rookie contract is up, we should be able to hang on to anybody. If it looks like our guy is going to leave despite that and the extra money we can give him, then we do what everyone else in that situation has done and trade him for the best offer of draft picks/young talent and reload.

I'm not passing on a better player because I have a hunch that he's going to force his way out in 4 years.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1289 » by Badgerlander » Tue May 27, 2014 11:44 am

breakchains wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
breakchains wrote:Who is the David West clone with deep range? Given we're talking about top prospects, I'm guessing you're referring to Vonleh? Don't see the West comparison - that actually made me think of Payne.


Vonleh's the better athlete, but they're the same size, length and have similar skills.

West is awesome, obviously. If Vonleh has West's career he'll be a huge success. But with his athleticism and range he could be even better.

I see Vonleh more of an Aldridge/Bosh sort of hybrid, in terms of style. Not saying he get be there, but that's who I view him stylistically as, and as a "ceiling," if you want to go that route.


Vonleh averaged 10.7 points per game in almost 30 minutes of play against the Big Ten, Bosh averaged 15.6 points in 31 minutes at GT, and Aldridge averaged 15ppg in 33 minutes his freshman year at Texas. Even Epke Udoh averaged 13.9 points per game in 35 minutes his freshman year. West only averaged 11.7ppg in just under 30 minutes and both he and Vonleh had a terrible 2pt fg% so it is possible that Vonleh could improve but if he gets drafted by a team with a poor developmental program I could see him drifting toward his perimeter shot and being the next Mullens/CV type big that never works on their post game to become a complete player.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1290 » by JustinCredible » Tue May 27, 2014 11:50 am

Tug0bwerdna wrote:The only successful pick IMO is Parker, you want a superstar that would stay in Milwaukee. Being that he is from Chicago, I think he would.


Wiggins is from Canada. I hear it is cold there.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1291 » by jwalsh52 » Tue May 27, 2014 12:07 pm

Tug0bwerdna wrote:The only successful pick IMO is Parker, you want a superstar that would stay in Milwaukee. Being that he is from Chicago, I think he would.


Doesn't matter where he is from. After the rookie contract he is a restricted free agent and will be signed for a second contract unless he wants to take the qualifying offer. That gives the Bucks 5 or more years to sell him on the team. If we can't do that then he should leave.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1292 » by Chapter29 » Tue May 27, 2014 12:42 pm

People will stay or for that matter come to Milwaukee if we are winning. Well that and a new stadium wont hurt.

I could care less if they want to be here day 1 and I don't worry at all about keeping them. Just need to start winning.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1293 » by machu46 » Tue May 27, 2014 1:25 pm

Yeah, not worried about getting a guy who's "more likely to stay". Durant stayed in OKC. PG stayed in Indiana. If we build a team that can make some noise, guys will want to stay.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1294 » by giraldo5 » Tue May 27, 2014 1:28 pm

Bernman wrote:
Waukee Taukee wrote:Wiggins is already a better offensive player than any you mention above. He basically matches Parker as a spot up shooter. He just needs to tighten his handle and develop a few go-to moves (similar to when Kobe came into the league). I have much greater faith in a prospect developing his offensive game at the next level than his defense...

Parker will impact games with his scoring as a rookie but, IMO, Wiggins could pay much larger dividends two to three years from now. A better two-way prospect.


Wiggins is not a better offensive player than Childress already. He's worse. His last year at Stanford, Childress averaged more points pace adjusted per 40 (21.3 to 20), on a higher ts% (60 to 56), and posted a much higher assist rate (3.6 to 1.9). He also hit more 3's (2 to 1.4) and shot a higher percentage on them (39.5 to 34.1). Childress' PER was 27.7 to Wiggins' 21.6. That's all in spite Wiggins getting a couple star calls per game (I don't care what any Wiggins fanatic here says, I'll side with the neutral announcers who pointed it out). So Wiggins has a ways to go to even be Josh Childress offensively, although in fairness he's got a couple years extra of development to catch up.

As far as you saying you'd prefer a prospect has to develop his offense rather than defense, that's asinine. You're just blatantly confirming a bias by making that statement. Defense is a large part effort and anticipation. You can become a decent defender without good athleticism. Aaron Craft was a great defender as a mediocre athlete. Whereas there are so many more facets to offense. You need to dribble, shoot, pass, set up your man, wade thru multiple defenders on drives, etc. Jump shooting is the only aspect you typically see players discernibly improve from college to NBA. With dribbling, making moves, and reading held defender movement to score off drives or set up passes, what you saw prior to NBA is more or less what you're likely to get in the NBA.



Since defense is just effort, Parker just didn't play hard at Duke is what you are saying? That's a major red flag.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1295 » by PkrsBcksGphsMqt » Tue May 27, 2014 1:31 pm

So when is Ford's next mock? Seeing Embiid projected to go to us in the title is a bit of a dick tease.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1296 » by paulpressey25 » Tue May 27, 2014 1:39 pm

PkrsBcksGphsMqt wrote:So when is Ford's next mock? Seeing Embiid projected to go to us in the title is a bit of a dick tease.


It's going to be a glorious time on these boards and in social media once Chad releases his story and video on Wiggins later today.

Cav's fans are going to agonize and Bucks fans rejoice.....it's coming. It will be a glorious piece on how Wiggy is a combination of Jordan and James Worthy.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1297 » by Bucksfan28 » Tue May 27, 2014 2:05 pm

Can't wait for the Wiggins video. Especially after Ford's tweet. About time the Wiggy bandwagon gets to awe at a two minute compilation of his best highlights from a 1-on-none workout.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1298 » by ReasonablySober » Tue May 27, 2014 2:47 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
PkrsBcksGphsMqt wrote:So when is Ford's next mock? Seeing Embiid projected to go to us in the title is a bit of a dick tease.


It's going to be a glorious time on these boards and in social media once Chad releases his story and video on Wiggins later today.

Cav's fans are going to agonize and Bucks fans rejoice.....it's coming. It will be a glorious piece on how Wiggy is a combination of Jordan and James Worthy.


Get The Wiggins Hype Train Rolling.

I read hundreds of comments over at Fear The Sword yesterday; Wiggins has a lot of fans. Granted, I'm one of them, but it isn't even remotely a question as to who I'd take #1.

Our big hope has to be that Cleveland out-thinks itself. Again. That they're concerned about Kyrie and they're desperate to get him a running-mate, they want the buzz from taking a kid the public has heard about for a year, etc.

Like I said earlier, there shouldn't be any reason Embiid drops to #2. But as long as the Cavs gonna Cavs I'll have some small degree of hope.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1299 » by Newz » Tue May 27, 2014 2:48 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:
PkrsBcksGphsMqt wrote:So when is Ford's next mock? Seeing Embiid projected to go to us in the title is a bit of a dick tease.


It's going to be a glorious time on these boards and in social media once Chad releases his story and video on Wiggins later today.

Cav's fans are going to agonize and Bucks fans rejoice.....it's coming. It will be a glorious piece on how Wiggy is a combination of Jordan and James Worthy.


Get The Wiggins Hype Train Rolling.

I read hundreds of comments over at Fear The Sword yesterday; Wiggins has a lot of fans. Granted, I'm one of them, but it isn't even remotely a question as to who I'd take #1.

Our big hope has to be that Cleveland out-thinks itself. Again. That they're concerned about Kyrie and they're desperate to get him a running-mate, they want the buzz from taking a kid the public has heard about for a year, etc.

Like I said earlier, there shouldn't be any reason Embiid drops to #2. But as long as the Cavs gonna Cavs I'll have some small degree of hope.


I hope they (the Cavs) take Parker... for the lulz.
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Re: Ford Mock 6.0 #2 Embiid 

Post#1300 » by ReasonablySober » Tue May 27, 2014 2:50 pm

Newz wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:
It's going to be a glorious time on these boards and in social media once Chad releases his story and video on Wiggins later today.

Cav's fans are going to agonize and Bucks fans rejoice.....it's coming. It will be a glorious piece on how Wiggy is a combination of Jordan and James Worthy.


Get The Wiggins Hype Train Rolling.

I read hundreds of comments over at Fear The Sword yesterday; Wiggins has a lot of fans. Granted, I'm one of them, but it isn't even remotely a question as to who I'd take #1.

Our big hope has to be that Cleveland out-thinks itself. Again. That they're concerned about Kyrie and they're desperate to get him a running-mate, they want the buzz from taking a kid the public has heard about for a year, etc.

Like I said earlier, there shouldn't be any reason Embiid drops to #2. But as long as the Cavs gonna Cavs I'll have some small degree of hope.


I hope they (the Cavs) take Parker... for the lulz.


Oh god, that'd be even better. He actually fits the criteria I mentioned even better. NBA ready and well known college kid and all.

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