Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

[blazza18]

Do we think something happened with Hill and the franchise last summer? There seems to be a lot of bad blood there, but maybe it's just the trade itself?

I think that Hill thinks there was something else behind the trade but I'm not really buying that.

There was.

He pissed off the one guy you don't want to piss off if you want to stay on the Bucks.

Giannis

George derailed the whole bubble locker room

All Giannis wants is guys who want to win a championship, George wasn't that guy anymore.

Staging a protest without telling teammates or the organization created a divide and put a timer on George's time as a Buck.

It wasn't the cause. It was how he went about it.

He pissed off Giannis? Didn't they travel to Greece together after the season?

[coolhandluke121]

You have to consider Jrue's contract situation too. Even having a guy locked up for ~1.5 years (i.e. 2 playoff runs) is far more valuable than trading for a guy on an expiring deal who is about turn 31 and is a risk to be a bad value on his next deal.

[ShootingtheJ]

Wonder if we could have gotten Towns for a similar Jrue package.

We're not even close, look at the AD trade. Pelicans got the 4th pick of the draft, plus the picks and pick swaps, but also the super valuable Brandon Ingram, Lonzo, along with Hart.

Ingram, Lonzo, and Hart were not "super valuable" pieces. There weren't a lot of people that were super high on Ingram or Ball when they were dealt. Ingram's breakout last season doesn't increase the value had when he was dealt. They were nice prospects. Super Valuable is a stretch.

Both the Bulls and Suns were willing to deal there pick (6th and 7th) for Lonzo alone. We weren't getting that for Bledsoe. Everyone but the Lakers knew Ingram was a future star. The Pelicans got a ton of calls on him after the deal.

[Turk Nowitzki]

I think that Hill thinks there was something else behind the trade but I'm not really buying that.

There was.

He pissed off the one guy you don't want to piss off if you want to stay on the Bucks.

Giannis

George derailed the whole bubble locker room

All Giannis wants is guys who want to win a championship, George wasn't that guy anymore.

Staging a protest without telling teammates or the organization created a divide and put a timer on George's time as a Buck.

It wasn't the cause. It was how he went about it.

He pissed off Giannis? Didn't they travel to Greece together after the season?

Yeah, I didn't want to start a thing but a lot of that as it relates to Giannis sounds like fanfic. Unless he knows something we don't.

[skones]

Both the Bulls and Suns were willing to deal there pick (6th and 7th) for Lonzo alone. We weren't getting that for Bledsoe. Everyone but the Lakers knew Ingram was a future star. The Pelicans got a ton of calls on him after the deal.

This just isn't true. You're living in fantasyland here. There's a reason many thought the Pelicans "gave in" to the Lakers demands when AD was actually dealt, and it's because nobody thought much of Ingram or Lonzo. There was nothing about Ingrams 18 a night on league average TS% and poor impact metrics that said, "future star" after year 3. There was absolutely NOTHING about Lonzo's game that said, "super valuable" given most had essentially left him for dead after his sophomore campaign in which he was awful. You're talking about the picks that resulted in Jarrett Culver, Jaxon Hayes, and Coby White being evidence of this super valuable asset?

Here's 55 pages of GB opinions that don't include, anything close to "everyone but the Lakers knew Ingram was a future star."
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1853376

[emunney]

Fair point that the players taken at those picks suck, but also, that's the type of pick the Pelicans will be lucky to get if the Bucks bottom out in 5-6 years.

[skones]

Fair point that the players taken at those picks suck, but also, that's the type of pick the Pelicans will be lucky to get if the Bucks bottom out in 5-6 years.

And obviously these things are draft specific. The 2019 draft and the immediacy of it, along with players available in that range, affect attributed value. The level of uncertainty to the drafts included in a potential bottom out for the Bucks give them more value IMO, ESPECIALLY since they're completely unprotected.

[Baddy Chuck]

I still think when it all shakes out in the end we'll have overpaid by about 1 mid-late first rounder for a good player who helped us keep the most important player in the franchises history under contract.

[DrWood]

Both the Bulls and Suns were willing to deal there pick (6th and 7th) for Lonzo alone. We weren't getting that for Bledsoe. Everyone but the Lakers knew Ingram was a future star. The Pelicans got a ton of calls on him after the deal.

This just isn't true. You're living in fantasyland here. There's a reason many thought the Pelicans "gave in" to the Lakers demands when AD was actually dealt, and it's because nobody thought much of Ingram or Lonzo. There was nothing about Ingrams 18 a night on league average TS% and poor impact metrics that said, "future star" after year 3. There was absolutely NOTHING about Lonzo's game that said, "super valuable" given most had essentially left him for dead after his sophomore campaign in which he was awful. You're talking about the picks that resulted in Jarrett Culver, Jaxon Hayes, and Coby White being evidence of this super valuable asset?

Here's 55 pages of GB opinions that don't include, anything close to "everyone but the Lakers knew Ingram was a future star."
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1853376

Ball and Ingram needed the same thing to be really useful players - - improved 3P shooting - - and they gained that when they went to N.O.
Lakers also gave up Deandre Hunter, who had just been the 4th pick in the draft.

[Baddy Chuck]

Over the next 5 years the biggest what if by far to me will be Harden. We make the splash for Jrue and within 2 weeks an MVP candidate demands a trade and wouldn't mind playing in Milwaukee. Ultimately he gets to traded to one of our biggest threats for a package we could probably have beaten and even if it meant gutting the roster/war chest it would probably have paid off huge.

[ShootingtheJ]

Both the Bulls and Suns were willing to deal there pick (6th and 7th) for Lonzo alone. We weren't getting that for Bledsoe. Everyone but the Lakers knew Ingram was a future star. The Pelicans got a ton of calls on him after the deal.

This just isn't true. You're living in fantasyland here. There's a reason many thought the Pelicans "gave in" to the Lakers demands when AD was actually dealt, and it's because nobody thought much of Ingram or Lonzo. There was nothing about Ingrams 18 a night on league average TS% and poor impact metrics that said, "future star" after year 3. There was absolutely NOTHING about Lonzo's game that said, "super valuable" given most had essentially left him for dead after his sophomore campaign in which he was awful. You're talking about the picks that resulted in Jarrett Culver, Jaxon Hayes, and Coby White being evidence of this super valuable asset?

Here's 55 pages of GB opinions that don't include, anything close to "everyone but the Lakers knew Ingram was a future star."
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1853376

So picks 6 and 7 weren't valuable, did that mean picks 12 and 13 were more valuable because those teams picked PJ Washington and Tyler Herro? This isn't your best argument.

What if pick 6 or 7 was packaged with pick 4? Traded for actual good players? Then did pick seven represent really good value?

[skones]

So picks 6 and 7 weren't valuable, did that mean picks 12 and 13 were more valuable because those teams picked PJ Washington and Tyler Herro? This isn't your best argument.

What if pick 6 or 7 was packaged with pick 4? Traded for actual good players? Then did pick seven represent really good value?

No, my argument is perfectly relevant because we're looking at a very specific range in which these players were picked that are representative of the quality of player likely being offered for Lonzo Ball. Nobody was enamored with the quality of prospect in that range. It seems to be the thing you're missing. The range at 6-7, is not the same as at 12-13.

What it comes down to is this simple point, using PJ Washington and Tyler Herro is a poor argument because you're bringing hindsight into the equation. Show of hands who thought Herro was going to average 13 and 4 while playing a pivotal role on a team that goes to the finals in year one? Bueller? Bueller? It's like putting 2nd round picks at a total premium because Nikola Jokic went in the second round once.

None of this changes your bogus assertion that everybody thought Brandon Ingram had star written all over him. You can make a case that New Orleans ultimately received solid return in the Davis deal. What that DOESN'T change is the value that package had at the time it was made. The value at that time, and not now, is what's actually relevant to the discussion at hand when you're drawing a comparison.

[Baddy Chuck]

Anthony Davis also basically forced his way to the Lakers and New Orleans had essentially one team to take deals from.

[skones]

Anthony Davis also basically forced his way to the Lakers and New Orleans had essentially one team to take deals from.

Which is entirely fair, but Harden forced his way out and we were actually on his expanded trade list. I don't disagree with your what-if regret.

[Baddy Chuck]

Anthony Davis also basically forced his way to the Lakers and New Orleans had essentially one team to take deals from.

Which is entirely fair, but Harden forced his way out and we were actually on his expanded trade list. I don't disagree with your what-if regret.

Sure but it would have taken a hell of a lot more than what we gave up for Jrue to get him.


And it probably would still have been a good trade for us.

[skones]

Anthony Davis also basically forced his way to the Lakers and New Orleans had essentially one team to take deals from.

Which is entirely fair, but Harden forced his way out and we were actually on his expanded trade list. I don't disagree with your what-if regret.

Sure but it would have taken a hell of a lot more than what we gave up for Jrue to get him.


And it probably would still have been a good trade for us.

I mean, they received 4 firsts, four swaps, Kurucs, and Oladipo. I feel like we're entirely in the ballpark, though a bit more would probably be necessary. Given the capital already expended, I wouldn't feel as though it'd be a significant addition, given it's James Harden with one more year and not Jrue freaking Holiday.

[Baddy Chuck]

I mean, they received 4 firsts, four swaps, Kurucs, and Oladipo. I feel like we're entirely in the ballpark, though a bit more would probably be necessary. Given the capital already expended, I wouldn't feel as though it'd be a significant addition, given it's James Harden with one more year and not Jrue freaking Holiday.

Think something like Caris LeVert, Jarrett Allen and a first is a lot closer to something like Middleton and DDV than an insignificant addition.

[skones]

I mean, they received 4 firsts, four swaps, Kurucs, and Oladipo. I feel like we're entirely in the ballpark, though a bit more would probably be necessary. Given the capital already expended, I wouldn't feel as though it'd be a significant addition, given it's James Harden with one more year and not Jrue freaking Holiday.

Think something like Caris LeVert, Jarrett Allen and a first is a lot closer to something like Middleton and DDV than an insignificant addition.

Neither Caris LeVert or Jarrett Allen should be factored into Houston's net here. I've already included the first in the return I mentioned.

[Baddy Chuck]

I mean, they received 4 firsts, four swaps, Kurucs, and Oladipo. I feel like we're entirely in the ballpark, though a bit more would probably be necessary. Given the capital already expended, I wouldn't feel as though it'd be a significant addition, given it's James Harden with one more year and not Jrue freaking Holiday.

Think something like Caris LeVert, Jarrett Allen and a first is a lot closer to something like Middleton and DDV than an insignificant addition.

Neither Caris LeVert or Jarrett Allen should be factored into Houston's net here. I've already included the first in the return I mentioned.

Sure it should, it's literally what was required for the Nets to acquire James Harden. What Houston does with those assets is their prerogative.

Nets got James Harden by giving up 3 firsts, Carvis LeVert and Jarrett Allen. That's a lot more then we gave up for Jrue. And I'd possibly argue a gap that would require our two best assets outside of Giannis to make up for. And again, a price I'm not convinced isn't worth it.

[skones]

Sure it should, it's literally what was required for the Nets to acquire James Harden. What Houston does with those assets is their prerogative.

Nets got James Harden by giving up 3 firsts, Carvis LeVert and Jarrett Allen. That's a lot more then we gave up for Jrue. And I'd possibly argue a gap that would require our two best assets outside of Giannis to make up for. And again, a price I'm not convinced isn't worth it.

I just fundamentally disagree and I'll leave it at that. I'm speaking of the literal package Houston accepted in return for Harden (ie. the most important thing). The idea that Houston should care what Brooklyn gives up and ultimately routes elsewhere makes zero sense to me. We aren't and wouldn't be operating with the same salary slots Brooklyn had. Brooklyn was actively paying other teams to get involved and facilitate the ultimate transaction. We had clearer paths to combining our slots to make it work. (Bled, Hill, Lopez, Ilyasova, plus DDV, and the draft capital)