Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I'd really be interested to know who in a locker room full of players with career earnings in excess of 100 million dollars had a problem with Malcolm Brogdon getting his first check.

But the spin continues to be out there for those who want it

maybe all the other guys making what brogdon was who came in and fought admirably and helped this team down the stretch and thru the first two playoff series while brogdon was sitting on his ass directing his agents to explore his next city?

my guess would be on them

You think Connaughton is Lamont's source?

who knows. who knows if this aspect is even true. it would be interesting to know who told gery midseason something was up

[soxperry]

Its becoming increasingly clear to me that this team doesnt need anyone outside of giannis and bud to win 55 games in the east. Its also probable that we cant win a title without a true number two. No one on the roster qualifies for that, neither does Brogdon. We need to go all in the next time a true superstar wants out of his situation.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Spoiler:

No. We're not.

sure we are. its in large part why were ahead of last year despite lopez, Bledsoe, and middleton all getting off to a shaky start or even being out.

sure Giannis has been amazing but.....hill, ddv, and brown are all shooting better from 3 this year on higher volume than brogdon last year. efficiency on average about the same as brogdon last year and light years ahead going of brogdons numbers this year. add wes in were still ahead but his impact defensively has been insane and his net ratng shows it. wes hasnt shot lights out but his percentage is better than brogdons has been this year. honestly a big factor having all 4 better defensively, shooting the ball well on extra volume, and not a single one being a bitch about their role. its been win win win win

that's not even to mention if we still had brogdon he'd be out right now with an achey back.

what possible reasoning could you use that somehow they haven't replaced him at least so far?

First of all, you're conveniently ignoring the direct replacement for Brogdon - Wesley Matthews:

They signed Wesley Matthews, an aging 3-and-D guard, to take Brogdon’s spot in the starting lineup. Matthews is a more limited player who takes a much higher percentage of his field goal attempts from 3 (71.4) than Brogdon did last season (32.6), while handing out far fewer assists (0.9 per game) than his predecessor (3.2). And he’s not even as good of a 3-point shooter: Matthews is shooting 32.0 percent compared with 42.6 percent for Brogdon when he was in a similar role.

Donte and Sterling are also not shooting better than Brogdon - their percentage is actually a bit lower, though admittedly not dramatically - and it's been a much smaller sample size to judge on for them. That's ignoring some of their other limitations - Sterling was terrible in the playoffs last year, and DDV didn't play. They're also incapable of running the point for any meaningful amount of time.

That's not to mention the implication of losing Brogdon as a guy who can be a primary scorer on the second unit. A guy who can run the point and free up Hill. A guy who can provide depth at guard when necessary. And a guy who has proven that he is not willing, but capable of making an offensive impact in crunch time when most of our team disappeared.

It remains to be seen what they'll look like come playoff time. Perhaps DDV or Sterling will take a leap and become that primary offensive presence that they need with the second unit. Perhaps Wes will become a competent player with that starting unit instead of taking bad shots and missing open ones too often. Perhaps Brogdon will fade, continue to get hurt, or otherwise make it clear that it wouldn't have worked in the long term with us.

I'm not rejecting those possibilities. But my theory on Brogdon's loss is that the team will be good without him, they'll probably be able to patch together a replacement for his production for most of the season. But when the playoffs start and rotations shrink, quality rises to the top, and that's when we'll miss having someone like Brogdon who can make plays on his own. Where the amalgamation of production from elsewhere will not replace the whole package from Malcolm

as it relates to Matthews...

last year when brogdon was on court
Ortg 116.6 Drtg 105.7 we outscored opponents by +10.9

this year when wes has been on the court
Ortg 113.2 Drtg 98.5 we have outscored opponents by +14.7

its very possible that of brogdons replacements wes has been the best. despite our offence being a little worse our defense has been devastating with him next to Bledsoe. guys haven't picked up on that except just a few but its real and the numbers show it.

so its early. i get that. but practically.... all the hyperbole aside. we aren't just maybe as good..... weve been almost 4 pts per 100 possession better. you could argue its been schedule except even that has been toughest in the league. you could argue its Giannis stepping up but Bledsoe and loez struggling and now middeton being out makes that argument implausible.

add in all the other guys shooting 40% or better from 3 and playing better defense themselves id say were doing just fine.

you have an argument the numbers wont hold...... that we will miss him in the playoffs with his 13ppg on mediocre efficiency in 1 out of 3 series will be missed .....but you have a very weak argument that up until this point that the team is worse because the guys aren't playing to his level.

[DavidDunn21]

Okay, but generally speaking there is a veteran code in the association about getting that money. Especially for guys getting the first non-rookie deal. Everyone tends to understand this, from your try hardiest guy to Stephen Jackson. If you don't understand, a veteran will school you. Also the reason guys like LeBron were so happy Delly fleeced us. Everybody is striving for that one undeserved contract that gives you generational money if you save it.

That's what I mean about the story not adding up. Could it be true? Sure. But the details ring false when Brogdon was making less than 2 million a year on bad feet and sending money to Africa. The details ring false when we won the first two games of the ECF with Brogdon. (and he played well in Game 3)

It is more likely in my opinion (as long as wild speculation is the order of the day) that Malcolm Brogdon knows that Eric Bledsoe is the type of rock head who will take the ball from the official and dribble inbounds without passing, and they occasionally clashed about it. Somebody should make up that story and claim it was leaked to them, and I'd believe it.

[humanrefutation]

Okay, but generally speaking there is a veteran code in the association about getting that money. Especially for guys getting the first non-rookie deal. Everyone tends to understand this, from your try hardiest guy to Stephen Jackson. If you don't understand, a veteran will school you. Also the reason guys like LeBron were so happy Delly fleeced us. Everybody is striving for that one undeserved contract that gives you generational money if you save it.

That's what I mean about the story not adding up. Could it be true? Sure. But the details ring false when Brogdon was making less than 2 million a year on bad feet and sending money to Africa. The details ring false when we won the first two games of the ECF with Brogdon. (and he played well in Game 3)

It is more likely in my opinion (as long as wild speculation is the order of the day) that Malcolm Brogdon knows that Eric Bledsoe is the type of rock head who will take the ball from the official and dribble inbounds without passing, and they occasionally clashed about it. Somebody should make up that story and claim it was leaked to them, and I'd believe it.

It is most likely in my opinion that Lamont is just full of **** and I wish no one bothered to follow him.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Okay, but generally speaking there is a veteran code in the association about getting that money. Especially for guys getting the first non-rookie deal. Everyone tends to understand this, from your try hardiest guy to Stephen Jackson. If you don't understand, a veteran will school you. Also the reason guys like LeBron were so happy Delly fleeced us. Everybody is striving for that one undeserved contract that gives you generational money if you save it.

That's what I mean about the story not adding up. Could it be true? Sure. But the details ring false when Brogdon was making less than 2 million a year on bad feet and sending money to Africa. The details ring false when we won the first two games of the ECF with Brogdon. (and he played well in Game 3)

It is more likely in my opinion (as long as wild speculation is the order of the day) that Malcolm Brogdon knows that Eric Bledsoe is the type of rock head who will take the ball from the official and dribble inbounds without passing, and they occasionally clashed about it. Somebody should make up that story and claim it was leaked to them, and I'd believe it.

It is most likely in my opinion that Lamont is just full of **** and I wish no one bothered to follow him.

id agree. id put him most likely in my boat. a fan whose like whatev about brogdon but just sick as **** of hearing about how badly we messed up letting him walk.

im just more honorable than him. i don't make up sources

[coolhandluke121]

Its becoming increasingly clear to me that this team doesnt need anyone outside of giannis and bud to win 55 games in the east. Its also probable that we cant win a title without a true number two. No one on the roster qualifies for that, neither does Brogdon. We need to go all in the next time a true superstar wants out of his situation.

This is actually the main reason I wanted Brogdon + someone else over Khris. I don't think Brogdon is anything special and I'm not losing any sleep at all over the numbers he's putting up (see my analysis of the PG "defense" he's faced this year on the previous page; it's an April tank-worthy slate), but there's no question that a slightly younger player with a little intrigue left is much easier to include as an asset in a trade for the next disgruntled star who becomes available. Teams that are trading away guys like PG13 or Anthony Davis aren't touching Khris Middleton on his current deal with a 10-foot pole.

The real problem is that Giannis is not only the only great player on the roster, but also the only very good one. And they couldn't keep all their good players under any realistic circumstances, so I've just accepted that somebody had to go. I'm okay with letting the biggest injury risk be the guy to leave, and that's before you even consider some of the other rumors.

[paulpressey25]

Its becoming increasingly clear to me that this team doesnt need anyone outside of giannis and bud to win 55 games in the east. Its also probable that we cant win a title without a true number two. No one on the roster qualifies for that, neither does Brogdon. We need to go all in the next time a true superstar wants out of his situation.

Agreed. And that's part of what I found ridiculous about the article. The guy says the Bucks need to assemble an arsenal of picks and prospects for.............Bogdan Bogdanovic.

The whole thing would have made much more sense if he said they need to go all in for Dame Lillard, and pay equivalent to what the Lakers did for AD and the Clips did for PG. And that line would have gotten a lot more national attention and clicks for him.

But a king's ransom for Bogdan, to solve all our issues? I like the guy, but

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Its becoming increasingly clear to me that this team doesnt need anyone outside of giannis and bud to win 55 games in the east. Its also probable that we cant win a title without a true number two. No one on the roster qualifies for that, neither does Brogdon. We need to go all in the next time a true superstar wants out of his situation.

This is actually the main reason I wanted Brogdon + someone else over Khris. I don't think Brogdon is anything special and I'm not losing any sleep at all over the numbers he's putting up (see my analysis of the PG "defense" he's faced this year on the previous page; it's an April tank-worthy slate), but there's no question that a slightly younger player with a little intrigue left is much easier to include as an asset in a trade for the next disgruntled star who becomes available. Teams that are trading away guys like PG13 or Anthony Davis aren't touching Khris Middleton on his current deal with a 10-foot pole.

The real problem is that Giannis is not only the only great player on the roster, but also the only very good one. And they couldn't keep all their good players under any realistic circumstances, so I've just accepted that somebody had to go. I'm okay with letting the biggest injury risk be the guy to leave, and that's before you even consider some of the other rumors.

like the post alright but i think middleton could have much more value in a 3 way then a heads up.

flip him for for salary and some picks and youth.....then package that salary with our own picks and young guys and we could be really really close if a lillard goes on the block. a team giving up their stud wont mind a package of scrap salary coming in if theyre also getting a bunch of picks and a stable of youth.

the hawks, kings, knicks, nets, lakers, twolves and mavs come to mind as potential spots in this scenario but I could see 1/2 of the league picking up the phone if he went on the block

if brogdon were to have stayed healthy i agree he too would have some value in trade.

[humanrefutation]

Its becoming increasingly clear to me that this team doesnt need anyone outside of giannis and bud to win 55 games in the east. Its also probable that we cant win a title without a true number two. No one on the roster qualifies for that, neither does Brogdon. We need to go all in the next time a true superstar wants out of his situation.

Agreed. And that's part of what I found ridiculous about the article. The guy says the Bucks need to assemble an arsenal of picks and prospects for.............Bogdan Bogdanovic.

The whole thing would have made much more sense if he said they need to go all in for Dame Lillard, and pay equivalent to what the Lakers did for AD and the Clips did for PG. And that line would have gotten a lot more national attention and clicks for him.

But a king's ransom for Bogdan, to solve all our issues? I like the guy, but

Bogdan might be the best player we can conceivably acquire for DDV/Sterling + picks package - and his pending RFA could give us a chance to keep him long term if he was as good as a fit. He's entering his physical prime. I'd gladly make a bigger move for Lillard, but I just don't see Portland wanting to move him for the package we'd likely offer. They'd want young talent and high picks.

Essentially, a move for Bogdan is acquiring Brogdon-level player in return for a moderate package of player(s) and pick(s).

I'd be curious to see who could be acquired from elsewhere for a similar package. We could also try to blow it up more substantially, but I doubt Horst will pull that trigger unless we somehow collapse over the next couple months.

[Bigdave11]

Bledsoe is better than both Brogdon and Middleton,when he plays aggressive and confident he’s a top 5 PG in the league,his play in November is proving this

[coolhandluke121]

Its becoming increasingly clear to me that this team doesnt need anyone outside of giannis and bud to win 55 games in the east. Its also probable that we cant win a title without a true number two. No one on the roster qualifies for that, neither does Brogdon. We need to go all in the next time a true superstar wants out of his situation.

This is actually the main reason I wanted Brogdon + someone else over Khris. I don't think Brogdon is anything special and I'm not losing any sleep at all over the numbers he's putting up (see my analysis of the PG "defense" he's faced this year on the previous page; it's an April tank-worthy slate), but there's no question that a slightly younger player with a little intrigue left is much easier to include as an asset in a trade for the next disgruntled star who becomes available. Teams that are trading away guys like PG13 or Anthony Davis aren't touching Khris Middleton on his current deal with a 10-foot pole.

The real problem is that Giannis is not only the only great player on the roster, but also the only very good one. And they couldn't keep all their good players under any realistic circumstances, so I've just accepted that somebody had to go. I'm okay with letting the biggest injury risk be the guy to leave, and that's before you even consider some of the other rumors.

like the post alright but i think middleton could have much more value in a 3 way then a heads up.

flip him for for salary and some picks and youth.....then package that salary with our own picks and young guys and we could be really really close if a lillard goes on the block. a team giving up their stud wont mind a package of scrap salary coming in if theyre also getting a bunch of picks and a stable of youth.

But that's the issue - you have to find a third team to make it work, and Khris's new salary slot is a serious limitation. You can't just assume there will be a team with the right combination of salaries to make something like that work. A salary slot like Brogdon's is far more flexible, and he's much more likely to have direct appeal to a team that's trading away a star because he still has some intrigue associated with being a little younger and still being an emerging guy. It would be like trading Khris in the first year of his previous contract, before he was one of the highest-paid players in the league and before he was considered an all-star candidate. Teams trading away Paul George or Anthony Davis are looking for contracts and players like that, not guys like Khris.

Plus you can make all sorts of combinations work. If Khris's salary doesn't match up in a trade, then teams not only have to be willing to make the trade in principle, they also have to have other pieces they're willing to trade to make it work. And the Bucks can add combo's of draft picks, young players, and expiring contracts to Brogdon's salary, but you can't add that to Khris's salary and expect the other team to be able to make it work. It's just more moving parts, and therefore more likely that some other team with a good offer swoops in and makes the deal out from under you.

Nothing against Khris, not being a Brogdon stan, but I don't see any way to debate that Brogdon was the more appropriate fit for maintaining the flexibility to make the type of consolidation trade the Bucks desperately need to be better in the playoffs, where quality trumps depth.

[TroyD92]

I really think Brogdon not wanting to be here was a real thing. I don’t know how you invest in the guy if that is the truth.

[machu46]

Bledsoe is better than both Brogdon and Middleton,when he plays aggressive and confident he’s a top 5 PG in the league,his play in November is proving this

I think top 5 is a little much, but I do think the idea that Giannis is the only very good player on the team is a joke. At minimum we have three very good players with Giannis, Bledsoe, and Middleton.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

But that's the issue - you have to find a third team to make it work, and Khris's new salary slot is a serious limitation. You can't just assume there will be a team with the right combination of salaries to make something like that work. A salary slot like Brogdon's is far more flexible, and he's much more likely to have direct appeal to a team that's trading away a star because he still has some intrigue associated with being a little younger and still being an emerging guy. It would be like trading Khris in the first year of his previous contract, before he was one of the highest-paid players in the league and before he was considered an all-star candidate. Teams trading away Paul George or Anthony Davis are looking for contracts and players like that, not guys like Khris.

Plus you can make all sorts of combinations work. If Khris's salary doesn't match up in a trade, then teams not only have to be willing to make the trade in principle, they also have to have other pieces they're willing to trade to make it work. And the Bucks can add combo's of draft picks, young players, and expiring contracts to Brogdon's salary, but you can't add that to Khris's salary and expect the other team to be able to make it work. It's just more moving parts, and therefore more likely that some other team with a good offer swoops in and makes the deal out from under you.

Nothing against Khris, not being a Brogdon stan, but I don't see any way to debate that Brogdon was the more appropriate fit for maintaining the flexibility to make the type of consolidation trade the Bucks desperately need to be better in the playoffs, where quality trumps depth.

khris Middleton would be massively coveted all around the league and his numbers aren't that hard to match. max slots get traded all the time these days and basically the entire league would be picking up the phone if he ever went on the market. the way this board talks about the next allstar being available.... the rest of the league would look at khris that way and go nuts if they thought he was available. only on this board is that not clearly understood for some reason.

Malcolm brogdon would also have had trade value if he had remained healthy. the smaller contract a little easier to juggle in and out of trades I would agree. we got 3 picks for him already. those are even easier to juggle in and out of trades.

considering how they aren't on the same tier as players and we already cashed in brogdon….i have to disagree about rather having brogdon and losing Middleton for nothing as a smarter avenue to a better all-star than the one we already have.

[old skool]

I agree that the Bucks are unlikely to win a championship without a clear star #2 who can score on his own in the playoff lock down half court. The problem is that teams don't willingly trade a true #1 or #2 star for pieces. When was the last time that happened? Lately it has only occurred when a star player demands a trade and a the team acquiesces rather than lose an asset for nothing. It can help when a team is not meeting expectations. There aren't too many teams and players in those situations.

The more likely scenario is to seemingly overpay to acquire a player on the verge of breaking into the superstar role. Getting Kawhi just before his first Finals MVP would be an example.

In either event, acquiring a true #2 is more difficult than we would like to admit. Hopefully Horst has been working on this for more than a year.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

if you cant have a an allnba player as your #2 then the next best thing is having the best #2 of all your competition.

Giannis/middleton
siakam/lowry
kemba/take your pick
butler/who knows
embiid/maybe horford?

we have the best #1 and the best #2 in that group moving forward. there isn't any doubt in my mind

[xTitan]

I agree that the Bucks are unlikely to win a championship without a clear star #2 who can score on his own in the playoff lock down half court. The problem is that teams don't willingly trade a true #1 or #2 star for pieces. When was the last time that happened? Lately it has only occurred when a star player demands a trade and a the team acquiesces rather than lose an asset for nothing. It can help when a team is not meeting expectations. There aren't too many teams and players in those situations.

The more likely scenario is to seemingly overpay to acquire a player on the verge of breaking into the superstar role. Getting Kawhi just before his first Finals MVP would be an example.

In either event, acquiring a true #2 is more difficult than we would like to admit. Hopefully Horst has been working on this for more than a year.

Paul George, Leonard, some would say Paul

[Ron Swanson]

I'm a big proponent of "talent always wins out", but the whole "two superstars" championship equation is this weird outdated and simplistically binary notion that has only rung true for like, half of the championship teams in the past decade. Unless you want to tell me that you view Draymond Green, Kyle Lowry, Jason Terry, and 37-year old Tim Duncan in the "superstar" or even great 2nd option category.

[coolhandluke121]

khris Middleton would be massively coveted all around the league and his numbers aren't that hard to match. max slots get traded all the time these days and basically the entire league would be picking up the phone if he ever went on the market.

Yeah but most of those teams would be offering Lonzo Ball, Josh Hart, expiring contracts, and a late draft pick or two. And then you'd have to hope the team trading away a star wants those guys. And the salaries would have to work in a 3-team deal. And not many teams would value Khris more than Brogdon. Most teams with a star to trade away would value him less.

I know he has trade value. The point is having the right assets for the type of team whose star player has demanded a trade. With Brogdon, it would be so much simpler.

You also called Giannis/Khris the best 1/2 punch in the East. Getting to the finals certainly would mean a lot, but they're not nearly equal to Lebron/Davis or Kawhi/George and that should be the goal. Last year they weren't even equal to Kawhi/Lowry. It's kind of hollow praise in the East, just like Khris (and Brooke) being former all-stars is kind of hollow because they made it as a tribute to their team's success in a weak conference. I doubt either one would have ever been a top 18-ish all-star candidate in any season over the last 20 years in the West.