Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[RiotPunch]

KPJ's off-court stuff may be resolved on paper, but his past is still looms large for any team willing to fork over big money. Could a desperate team do it? Certainly. Do I think that will happen? I actually don't, really, save for the scenario Bern laid out.

Aug 2020 - Accused of assaulting a woman in Cleveland -- no charges, but still.
Jan 2021 - Misconduct with Cavs management that got him shipped to HOU
Apr 2021 - Violating COVID Protocol by going to a strip club (with Sterling Brown, no less)
Jan 2022 - Got into it with coach John Lucas at halftime and literally left the arena. He drove home during a game.
Sep 2023 - Obviously we all know the troubling allegations here

His play of late has been very promising, but not sure the sample size is large enough for a team to give him the bag and ignore his well-established history of anger/violence/immaturity issues. It is certainly large enough for us to spend as much as we're able to in order to keep him, much like it was worth it for Charlotte to re-sign Bridges, but for another team to do it feels like a risky deal to me. It will be interesting to see.

I do think KPJ has grown up a lot and he seems genuinely happy here. We have the kind of locker room where he can grow, thrive, and feel supported. That counts for something if he is serious about continuing down his road to betterment.

[MickeyDavis]

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[German Athens]

You just listed eight teams who can offer more, in addition to however many teams who can offer the same amount as Milwaukee that aren't in, you know, Milwaukee. Teams with RFAs will sign guys into cap space before they take care of their restricted guys.

There are 7 teams who could, so 22 other teams who couldn't. But really 14m, 17m, and 19m aren't the types of "blow the hinges off the door" offers that I think would immediately make fit irrelevant.

Your point about RFA's is a good one, and a blunder on my part. My mistake. Also, Slos brought up a good point about Det offering the room MLE to Beasley at 8.8m, and then still having the full 24m. Those are both aspects that I hadn't considered.

The bolded part above I've already acknowledged. I've stated that, IMO, it would either be Brooklyn offering more money, or, if he leaves, it not being about us being incapable of offering more, as in he took someone else's MLE offer.

But I also don't think comments like,

He's gonna be paid so much this summer.

Are implying that he's about to get offered the MLE by someone and take it, but rather, that he will be offered more money than we will be able to offer. If I'm mis-understanding the implication, my mistake again.

As a deeper dive into those 7 teams, here we go:

Brooklyn

Spoiler:

91m cap space. They could absolutely offer the bag, and who knows who they are interested in using that space on this summer. They are a threat.

Memphis

Spoiler:

Has 17m dollars in cap space, but also has Ja and Bane firmly established as their starting backcourt. In addition, Memphis has already had to deal with plenty of issues from their mercurial guard. Do I think this is a likely destination? No, unless they do something like move Ja for KD and then offer the starting spot to KPJ. Who knows what changes will come about this summer?

Detroit

Spoiler:

24m. Slos pointed out the Room MLE, and that could change things. Although, I'm not sure someone else wouldn't offer Beasley a little more considering he's second in 3PM this year, and just averaged 16ppg this year. Beyond that, they have Ivey and Cade as their perimeter creators. KPJ could fit there, but I'm not sold either side is an obvious fit.

Chicago

Spoiler:

Have 19m cap space. They also have Coby White and Ayo in their backcourt, as well as Giddey as a perimeter ball handler. I think it's possible they could see KPJ as an upgrade, but I'm not sure.

New Orleans

Spoiler:

21m. They also have Murray and Mccollum locked up in their backcourt. In addition, they have their recent lottery pick Hawkins. Who knows what they think about their roster. Their team could go in a bunch of different directions this summer

Houston

Spoiler:

19m. They already kicked KPJ off their team once. I highly doubt there's interest in part deux.

Washington

Spoiler:

14m. They can literally offer a few 100k more than us. If that's the difference between us signing him and losing him, and what we're losing sleep over. Okay

_______________

Milwaukee

He's playing the best basketball of his career right now, but I think a big part of this is that he gets to play alongside Giannis and so far, has fit quite well. We've seen recent players take less to stay here - Brook took less than Houston offered to come back, and we know bobby took quite a bit less to come back as well. We also don't know what other offers some of the min players have had over the past couple seasons who elected to come here instead.

I don't think it's an unreasonable position to think there's a good chance he comes back to a team where he gets to play alongside Giannis, have an easy pathway to minutes, and gets to play for the team that he's had a career resurgence with. Who knows how everything will shake out, but when there's plenty of assumption on the board about him getting the bag this summer, I wanted to take a closer look at who those teams are that can offer more, and what exactly it is that they would be able to offer (both the money and pathway to minutes).

[emunney]

KPJ's off-court stuff may be resolved on paper, but his past is still looms large for any team willing to fork over big money. Could a desperate team do it? Certainly. Do I think that will happen? I actually don't, really, save for the scenario Bern laid out.

Aug 2020 - Accused of assaulting a woman in Cleveland -- no charges, but still.
Jan 2021 - Misconduct with Cavs management that got him shipped to HOU
Apr 2021 - Violating COVID Protocol by going to a strip club (with Sterling Brown, no less)
Jan 2022 - Got into it with coach John Lucas at halftime and literally left the arena. He drove home during a game.
Sep 2023 - Obviously we all know the troubling allegations here

His play of late has been very promising, but not sure the sample size is large enough for a team to give him the bag and ignore his well-established history of anger/violence/immaturity issues. It is certainly large enough for us to spend as much as we're able to in order to keep him, much like it was worth it for Charlotte to re-sign Bridges, but for another team to do it feels like a risky deal to me. It will be interesting to see.

I do think KPJ has grown up a lot and he seems genuinely happy here. We have the kind of locker room where he can grow, thrive, and feel supported. That counts for something if he is serious about continuing down his road to betterment.

He was also suspended for personal conduct for a couple months at USC. I'm not saying guys don't grow up, but it's fair to say KPJ had a documented pattern of behavior that Bridges did not. Hard also to say what other teams were offering Bridges. Like, Joe Mazzulla punched a cop, and nobody talks about it, but if he punched a cop, then the next year he punched a fireman, then a construction worker, a bank teller, a pharmacist, Richard Scarry, etc... prolly not coaching the Celtics right now.

[ReasonablySober]

I appreciate the effort here, but there are 23 other teams who'll have the Non-Taxpayer MLE this summer, according to Over the Cap. KPJ will not only be available to seven teams with more cap space, but most of the rest of the teams in the league who can offer the same amount as Milwaukee.

KPJ is gonna have to really, really love Milwaukee to return.

[German Athens]

KPJ's off-court stuff may be resolved on paper, but his past is still looms large for any team willing to fork over big money. Could a desperate team do it? Certainly. Do I think that will happen? I actually don't, really, save for the scenario Bern laid out.

Aug 2020 - Accused of assaulting a woman in Cleveland -- no charges, but still.
Jan 2021 - Misconduct with Cavs management that got him shipped to HOU
Apr 2021 - Violating COVID Protocol by going to a strip club (with Sterling Brown, no less)
Jan 2022 - Got into it with coach John Lucas at halftime and literally left the arena. He drove home during a game.
Sep 2023 - Obviously we all know the troubling allegations here

His play of late has been very promising, but not sure the sample size is large enough for a team to give him the bag and ignore his well-established history of anger/violence/immaturity issues. It is certainly large enough for us to spend as much as we're able to in order to keep him, much like it was worth it for Charlotte to re-sign Bridges, but for another team to do it feels like a risky deal to me. It will be interesting to see.

I do think KPJ has grown up a lot and he seems genuinely happy here. We have the kind of locker room where he can grow, thrive, and feel supported. That counts for something if he is serious about continuing down his road to betterment.

He was also suspended for personal conduct for a couple months at USC. I'm not saying guys don't grow up, but it's fair to say KPJ had a documented pattern of behavior that Bridges did not. Hard also to say what other teams were offering Bridges. Like, Joe Mazzulla punched a cop, and nobody talks about it, but if he punched a cop, then the next year he punched a fireman, then a construction worker, a bank teller, a pharmacist, Richard Scarry, etc... prolly not coaching the Celtics right now.

Maybe coaching the bucks, though.

[German Athens]

I appreciate the effort here, but there are 23 other teams who'll have the Non-Taxpayer MLE this summer, according to Over the Cap. KPJ will not only be available to seven teams with more cap space, but most of the rest of the teams in the league who can offer the same amount as Milwaukee.

KPJ is gonna have to really, really love Milwaukee to return.

I think at the very least, we should be a proof of concept for him. It works here, and he seems to be liking his time here thus far.

Hoping that continues and hoping for the best this off-season.

[Bernman]

If the assumption is that he's already basically a legit "#2 option" on a contending team with tremendous upside, then how are we justifying him getting MLE type offers or less? Seems like only one of those things can be true, not both.

No, we're desperate for any possible #2 to keep the Giannis era going, & have already shown more of an inclination to ignore off the court issues than anybody. We pursued him last offseason & then got him for peanuts from the team he signed with. If Haslam has an m.o., it's this.

[Ron Swanson]

If you could promise me that Horst would give KPJ the wink-wink "we'll take care of you later if you sign this 1+1 deal now" special, then I'd even be fine with letting him stay in the GM seat so long as he gets the autonomy to pick the next coach. I mean, could I see Brooklyn throwing a front-loaded Hartenstein type offer his way? I guess, but the circumstances of that were pretty unique, and if someone is floating him a 3-yr $80 million offer then I'm assuming dude looked like prime D-Wade for us in the playoffs. Which in that fever dream scenario, why wouldn't you do everything you can to dump Kuzma/Pat so you can just sign him with cap space?

[emunney]

I appreciate the effort here, but there are 23 other teams who'll have the Non-Taxpayer MLE this summer, according to Over the Cap. KPJ will not only be available to seven teams with more cap space, but most of the rest of the teams in the league who can offer the same amount as Milwaukee.

KPJ is gonna have to really, really love Milwaukee to return.

That can't be right. Boston's over the 1st apron with 5 guys. Also isn't Over the Cap a NFL site?

[ReasonablySober]

I appreciate the effort here, but there are 23 other teams who'll have the Non-Taxpayer MLE this summer, according to Over the Cap. KPJ will not only be available to seven teams with more cap space, but most of the rest of the teams in the league who can offer the same amount as Milwaukee.

KPJ is gonna have to really, really love Milwaukee to return.

That can't be right. Boston's over the 1st apron with 5 guys. Also isn't Over the Cap a NFL site?

My bad, meant Spotrac.

[emunney]

I appreciate the effort here, but there are 23 other teams who'll have the Non-Taxpayer MLE this summer, according to Over the Cap. KPJ will not only be available to seven teams with more cap space, but most of the rest of the teams in the league who can offer the same amount as Milwaukee.

KPJ is gonna have to really, really love Milwaukee to return.

That can't be right. Boston's over the 1st apron with 5 guys. Also isn't Over the Cap a NFL site?

My bad, meant Spotrac.

Ah, 23 teams other than the Bucks, not other than the teams he broke down.

[raferfenix]

If you could promise me that Horst would give KPJ the wink-wink "we'll take care of you later if you sign this 1+1 deal now" special, then I'd even be fine with letting him stay in the GM seat so long as he gets the autonomy to pick the next coach. I mean, could I see Brooklyn throwing a front-loaded Hartenstein type offer his way? I guess, but the circumstances of that were pretty unique, and if someone is floating him a 3-yr $80 million offer then I'm assuming dude looked like prime D-Wade for us in the playoffs. Which in that fever dream scenario, why wouldn't you do everything you can to dump Kuzma/Pat so you can just sign him with cap space?

Ha, ok, so while we can fever dream of such things:

Imagine KPJ pulls off a Dwyane Wade caliber streak on a deep playoff run -- with way less cringe Jason Kidd "blowing a kiss to my wife after ever free throw to make everyone ignore what happened" energy too.

How hard would it be to dump Kuzma/Pat and around how much money would we be beneath the cap?

Or might there be a cap saving deal involving Dame out there?

[Ron Swanson]

If you could promise me that Horst would give KPJ the wink-wink "we'll take care of you later if you sign this 1+1 deal now" special, then I'd even be fine with letting him stay in the GM seat so long as he gets the autonomy to pick the next coach. I mean, could I see Brooklyn throwing a front-loaded Hartenstein type offer his way? I guess, but the circumstances of that were pretty unique, and if someone is floating him a 3-yr $80 million offer then I'm assuming dude looked like prime D-Wade for us in the playoffs. Which in that fever dream scenario, why wouldn't you do everything you can to dump Kuzma/Pat so you can just sign him with cap space?

Ha, ok, so while we can fever dream of such things:

Imagine KPJ pulls off a Dwyane Wade caliber streak on a deep playoff run -- with way less cringe Jason Kidd "blowing a kiss to my wife after ever free throw to make everyone ignore what happened" energy too.

How hard would it be to dump Kuzma/Pat and around how much money would we be beneath the cap?

A cap expert can correct me if I'm wrong but with Bobby likely opting out, all you'd need to do is renounce Brook's cap hold, then aggregate Kuzma/Pat in a deal for a player(s) making slightly less. That was kinda the whole point/only silver lining of the Kuzma trade. It gave us actual cap flexibility for the first time since 2019 (the summer we dumped Snell to re-sign Brook and George Hill with cap space).

[soxperry]

I think theres some confusion in this thread. Some of the cap room numbers appear to be prior to accounting for cap holds on existing players.

Second, a team may not use cap room to sign a player AND use the non tax mle. They may use cap room (which also entitles them to the room exception), the mle or the tax mle. But they may only use one of those exceptions per year.

[BroncoBuck]

That can't be right. Boston's over the 1st apron with 5 guys. Also isn't Over the Cap a NFL site?

My bad, meant Spotrac.

Ah, 23 teams other than the Bucks, not other than the teams he broke down.

It’s not even correct. It’s assuming all the options are declined, which isn’t realistic at all.

[WallyMeanwell]

The Kings are a mess with no true alpha and a lot of long-term contracts. Assuming this year fizzles out, would the Bucks do Dame for Derozan, Monk and Murray?

[WeMajor34]

The Kings are a mess with no true alpha and a lot of long-term contracts. Assuming this year fizzles out, would the Bucks do Dame for Derozan, Monk and Murray?

I would do that in a heartbeat. I don't think the Kings would though.

[chonestown]

KPJ's off-court stuff may be resolved on paper, but his past is still looms large for any team willing to fork over big money. Could a desperate team do it? Certainly. Do I think that will happen? I actually don't, really, save for the scenario Bern laid out.

Aug 2020 - Accused of assaulting a woman in Cleveland -- no charges, but still.
Jan 2021 - Misconduct with Cavs management that got him shipped to HOU
Apr 2021 - Violating COVID Protocol by going to a strip club (with Sterling Brown, no less)
Jan 2022 - Got into it with coach John Lucas at halftime and literally left the arena. He drove home during a game.
Sep 2023 - Obviously we all know the troubling allegations here

His play of late has been very promising, but not sure the sample size is large enough for a team to give him the bag and ignore his well-established history of anger/violence/immaturity issues. It is certainly large enough for us to spend as much as we're able to in order to keep him, much like it was worth it for Charlotte to re-sign Bridges, but for another team to do it feels like a risky deal to me. It will be interesting to see.

I do think KPJ has grown up a lot and he seems genuinely happy here. We have the kind of locker room where he can grow, thrive, and feel supported. That counts for something if he is serious about continuing down his road to betterment.

I keep coming back to two months vs five years.

I'm hopeful about KPJ but if I'm a non-Bucks GM, Q1 of 2025 looks like the outlier. It could be the beginning of a trend, but would you throw any sort of money at him beyond a one-year deal?

I will admit to chuckling over the Jan 22 entry. KPJ a disciple of dasharezone.

[BUCKnation]

I think the Nets are probably the biggest threat to give KPJ a bag. Everyone else, it'll be close enough that you would the infrastructure and stability would be a convincing enough case for him to stay.