Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

[paulpressey25]

who knows. who knows if this aspect is even true. it would be interesting to know who told gery midseason something was up

Gery admitted he didn't know who the disgruntled player was. Then it came out maybe a week or two later that Thon was demanding a trade. I'm going with the theory that Gery's info was related to Thon, not Brogdon. That timeline adds up.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm a big proponent of "talent always wins out", but the whole "two superstars" championship equation is this weird outdated and simplistically binary notion that has only rung true for like, half of the championship teams in the past decade. Unless you want to tell me that you view Draymond Green, Kyle Lowry, Jason Terry, and 37-year old Tim Duncan in the "superstar" or even great 2nd option category.

When supporting casts are comparable, it still makes a huge difference. I don't disagree with the overall point, but seeing Lowry play so much better than anyone on the Bucks besides Giannis makes it hard to dismiss the importance of having another perennial all-star.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

khris Middleton would be massively coveted all around the league and his numbers aren't that hard to match. max slots get traded all the time these days and basically the entire league would be picking up the phone if he ever went on the market.

Yeah but most of those teams would be offering Lonzo Ball, Josh Hart, expiring contracts, and a late draft pick or two. And then you'd have to hope the team trading away a star wants those guys. And the salaries would have to work in a 3-team deal. And not many teams would value Khris more than Brogdon. Most teams with a star to trade away would value him less.

I know he has trade value. The point is having the right assets for the type of team whose star player has demanded a trade. With Brogdon, it would be so much simpler.

You also called Giannis/Khris the best 1/2 punch in the East. Getting to the finals certainly would mean a lot, but they're not nearly equal to Lebron/Davis or Kawhi/George and that should be the goal. Last year they weren't even equal to Kawhi/Lowry. It's kind of hollow praise in the East, just like Khris (and Brooke) being former all-stars is kind of hollow because they made it as a tribute to their team's success in a weak conference. I doubt either one would have ever been a top 18-ish all-star candidate in any season over the last 20 years in the West.

youre not doing the math right imo.

middleton value to all 30 teams plus indys 3 picks >>>>>> brogdon value.
i don't care how we go about it whether its a 2 way 3way or whatever.....middleton could bring back a cache of contracts, young players, and picks. stack those on the indy picks and damn were at least in in the discussion with anybody. brogdon on his own is a nice asset assuming hes healthy but I just don't see him being enough especially with his injury history to generate that much interest for the bigger fish.

also... pairing Giannis with a first or second team all nber is a pipedream regardless of whatever route we take besides drafting one

[paulpressey25]

Teams that are trading away guys like PG13 or Anthony Davis aren't touching Khris Middleton on his current deal with a 10-foot pole.

Bingo. I had a hard time explaining this concept of future flexibility to Eric Nehm last year on twitter. Brogdon and Bojan, each on 4/$85 deals are far easier to trade than Middleton on a 5/$178. If Midds was a star, you don't care. If Midds is just a top 30-40 player towards the end of his prime, it is a problem.

That said, if you want to deal Middleton, you've got to move quickly here.

Let's look at deals that seemed like they'd be financially bad at time of signing:
Redd 6/$90
Gadz 6/$36
Plumlee 4/$52

In the case of Redd and Gadz, the team did have neutral value deals available to them initially, but rebuffed them, only for the deals to age worse, once each player got injured or proved to not be close to contract value.

In Plumlee, they were magically able to move on quickly in year one. As Nate Duncan said this past week, just imagine if Plumlee were still here gumming up the cap.

[coolhandluke121]

youre not doing the math right imo.

middleton value to all 30 teams plus indys 3 picks >>>>>> brogdon

also... pairing Giannis with a first team all nber is a pipedream regardless of whatever route we take besides drafting one

Eye of the beholder obviously, but I think a lot of teams would have to have some very grave internal discussions about taking Khris and his contract when you have a chance to get a younger guy on half the salary who still hasn't had a chance to show everything he can do in a featured role.

I'm not asking for an all-NBAer, let alone a first-teamer. That's top 15. But it would be nice to have another guy who you can reasonably expect to be an all-star on his own merits year in and year out. Conley, for example, would probably have been an all-star 4 or 5 times in the East, just like Lowry.

ETA: Wouldn't be as excited about either of those guys now though, obviously, but a comparable player who's currently younger.

[skones]

who knows. who knows if this aspect is even true. it would be interesting to know who told gery midseason something was up

Gery admitted he didn't know who the disgruntled player was. Then it came out maybe a week or two later that Thon was demanding a trade. I'm going with the theory that Gery's info was related to Thon, not Brogdon. That timeline adds up.

Wasn't the report that the player was a core piece? I feel like there was some differentiator that eliminated Thon as the candidate.

EDIT: It was one of the four free agents plans on leaving. For the most part, there were two schools of thought, the "ITS MIDDLETON" train or "GERY IS SENILE" train.

[Nowak008]

Tjarks should stick to doing draft stuff, that’s what he is best at.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Let's look at deals that seemed like they'd be financially bad at time of signing:
Redd 6/$90
Gadz 6/$36
Plumlee 4/$52

these deals are irrelevant to the discussion. the deals that are relevant to the discussion are the deals in the league today and historically nba wide.

I posted a chart a couple days ago where I went back and listed the top 15-25 paid guys in the league 10 years ago and then today. the cap has doubled and the deals have doubled. the names on the list were all players that were more or less solid players with a long history of benefiting their teams. middleton didnt stand out in any way that he didn't belong in that tier of names on either list. the guys who became albatross's were guys who were signed in their 30s to money like that or got injured young.

the ONLY way middletons contract becomes a problem is if he gets hurt. other than that one freak injury why anybody would expect that I have no idea. his game is literally built to age well. quite frankly were just as at risk if not more of that happening with Giannis supermax as far as im concerned

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

who knows. who knows if this aspect is even true. it would be interesting to know who told gery midseason something was up

Gery admitted he didn't know who the disgruntled player was. Then it came out maybe a week or two later that Thon was demanding a trade. I'm going with the theory that Gery's info was related to Thon, not Brogdon. That timeline adds up.

Wasn't the report that the player was a core piece? I feel like there was some differentiator that eliminated Thon as the candidate.

EDIT: It was one of the four free agents plans on leaving. For the most part, there were two schools of thought, the "ITS MIDDLETON" train or "GERY IS SENILE" train.

yep....thon fit the timeline but not any other aspect of it. finding out what we know now about brogdon makes the most sense by far

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

youre not doing the math right imo.

middleton value to all 30 teams plus indys 3 picks >>>>>> brogdon

also... pairing Giannis with a first team all nber is a pipedream regardless of whatever route we take besides drafting one

Eye of the beholder obviously, but I think a lot of teams would have to have some very grave internal discussions about taking Khris and his contract when you have a chance to get a younger guy on half the salary who still hasn't had a chance to show everything he can do in a featured role.

I'm not asking for an all-NBAer, let alone a first-teamer. That's top 15. But it would be nice to have another guy who you can reasonably expect to be an all-star on his own merits year in and year out. Conley, for example, would probably have been an all-star 4 or 5 times in the East, just like Lowry.

ETA: Wouldn't be as excited about either of those guys now though, obviously, but a comparable player who's currently younger.

can you give me an example of a conley or lowry in their mid to late 20s who has a snowballs chance of being available with brogdon as a main and virtually only piece?

middleton you trade for a couple shorter moveable deals and some nice draft assets or rookie deal guys. you add the indy picks WHICH WE WOULD NOT HAVE if we went your route.

I just cant believe your discounting the fact that we kept the better and healthier player PLUS those INDY picks. I get the contract is 10 million more per but that's literally the only thing. teams love talent and picks and like to set money on fire. screw the 10 mil

[coolhandluke121]

FWIW I don't know how everyone on the team, especially Giannis, felt about the chemistry issue, and I consider that a big factor. I'm also not saying I really wanted Brogdon. I think he's benefiting a lot from a ridiculously easy schedule, and I think injuries are a big factor.

I'm saying this all from an asset management viewpoint. I would have kept Brogdon only to trade him in a consolidation deal at the first good opportunity. But it's not like Brogdon didn't prove to be a good fit while he was year, so I'm not advocating something that would have significantly compromised their ability to contend for the sake of asset management and a more sustainable Brewers-esque plan.

As much as I'm not a huge Brogdon fan, I'm not a big Khris fan either. Haven't been for a while. Regardless of scoring numbers (remember that stat that ways shoved down our throats all the time about Redd increasing his scoring average every year for 6 years or whatever?), he hasn't been the same since the end of 2016. He was much more mobile. I thought the Bucks have Reggie Miller Lite (if you have to imagine a parallel universe where Miller Lite isn't gross, do so now). Now they basically have Big Dog or Redd or something.

Also, with Brogdon they could have avoided stretching guys like Leuer, or they could have signed someone else besides Brogdon, or just kept Hill on his previous contract so they'd have his full Bird Rights at the end of this season and not commit to paying him $10m when he's 35 or whatever. Unless Giannis insisted on keeping Khris, I think it was a poor choice, but not an unforgivable one.

[coolhandluke121]

I just cant believe your discounting the fact that we kept the better and healthier player PLUS those INDY picks. I get the contract is 10 million more per but that's literally the only thing. teams love talent and picks and like to set money on fire. screw the 10 mil

You're discounting all the other long-term payroll structure issues that come with spending almost exactly $15m (not $10m) less for one less year, not to mention the potential value of spending all that free agent money on someone else while keeping Brogdon's incredibly low QO and retaining the right to match after spending Khris's $19.5m cap hold on someone else. Is $19.5m in cap space on a team that is suddenly a much more appealing destination "literally nothing" compared to Indy picks that are protected until the sun explodes?

[Bigdave11]

Bledsoe is better than both Brogdon and Middleton,when he plays aggressive and confident he’s a top 5 PG in the league,his play in November is proving this

I think top 5 is a little much, but I do think the idea that Giannis is the only very good player on the team is a joke. At minimum we have three very good players with Giannis, Bledsoe, and Middleton.

Ok I’ll say top 5-7 PG in the league when he plays how he’s been playing this month. Dude is 6’1 215 and just straight bully’s opposing PG’s offensively and defensively,I don’t even pay people any mind when they say Giannis is the only good player on he Bucks,though I do think Milwaukee should’ve kept Brogdon and let Middleton walk

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I just cant believe your discounting the fact that we kept the better and healthier player PLUS those INDY picks. I get the contract is 10 million more per but that's literally the only thing. teams love talent and picks and like to set money on fire. screw the 10 mil

You're discounting all the other long-term payroll structure issues that come with spending almost exactly $15m (not $10m) less for one less year, not to mention the potential value of spending all that free agent money on someone else while keeping Brogdon's incredibly low QO and retaining the right to match after spending Khris's $19.5m cap hold on someone else. Is $19.5m in cap space on a team that is suddenly a much more appealing destination "literally nothing" compared to Indy picks that are protected until the sun explodes?

deal middleton to Brooklyn for lavert and Dinwiddie. boom now you have two brogdon level guys on better deals plus the indy picks.

I could give 10 examples like this and those deals would be there

[machu46]

Bledsoe is better than both Brogdon and Middleton,when he plays aggressive and confident he’s a top 5 PG in the league,his play in November is proving this

I think top 5 is a little much, but I do think the idea that Giannis is the only very good player on the team is a joke. At minimum we have three very good players with Giannis, Bledsoe, and Middleton.

Ok I’ll say top 5-7 PG in the league when he plays how he’s been playing this month. Dude is 6’1 215 and just straight bully’s opposing PG’s offensively and defensively,I don’t even pay people any mind when they say Giannis is the only good player on he Bucks,though I do think Milwaukee should’ve kept Brogdon and let Middleton walk

Bledsoe is a mismatch when the other teammates can hit shots in similar (but obviously lesser) ways as Giannis. Basically every PG is either giving up a ton of strength or a ton of quickness against him, so like Giannis, he can pretty much beat his man whenever he wants to. Huge difference is Giannis can just dunk over the help defenders when they come; Bledsoe is forced to kick out more on his drives or risk forcing up a tough layup.

Bledsoe and Middleton obviously aren't the same caliber player as guys like Anthony Davis and Paul George, but they're certainly both capable of carrying the offense for stretches without Giannis if need be.

[TroyD92]

I think top 5 is a little much, but I do think the idea that Giannis is the only very good player on the team is a joke. At minimum we have three very good players with Giannis, Bledsoe, and Middleton.

Ok I’ll say top 5-7 PG in the league when he plays how he’s been playing this month. Dude is 6’1 215 and just straight bully’s opposing PG’s offensively and defensively,I don’t even pay people any mind when they say Giannis is the only good player on he Bucks,though I do think Milwaukee should’ve kept Brogdon and let Middleton walk

Bledsoe is a mismatch when the other teammates can hit shots in similar (but obviously lesser) ways as Giannis. Basically every PG is either giving up a ton of strength or a ton of quickness against him, so like Giannis, he can pretty much beat his man whenever he wants to. Huge difference is Giannis can just dunk over the help defenders when they come; Bledsoe is forced to kick out more on his drives or risk forcing up a tough layup.

Bledsoe and Middleton obviously aren't the same caliber player as guys like Anthony Davis and Paul George, but they're certainly both capable of carrying the offense for stretches without Giannis if need be.

Bledsoe and Middleton have been taking a noticable amount more of mid range jumpshots over the last 5-8 games and I'm a big fan of it. Bledsoe used to be a killer from mid range on the pnr.

[Ron Swanson]

Middleton yes. Bledsoe no. You play to your strengths and Bledsoe shouldn't ever be settling for pull-up mid-range shots. It's great when he gets hot and hits a few but just like with Giannis, that's the shot that opposing teams will let them take very single time.

[kid idioteque]

You guys need to settle down. That report isn't that Malcolm was milking an injury but that a couple players *felt* he was milking an injury. Which seems entirely plausible. If Woelfel knew, you can be damn sure the locker room knew that Malcolm wasn't happy with his role.

And you can rule out a conspiracy involving both the Bucks and Woelfel.

I'm guessing that Bledsoe and Brogdon aren't huge fans of one another.

[kid idioteque]

who knows. who knows if this aspect is even true. it would be interesting to know who told gery midseason something was up

Gery admitted he didn't know who the disgruntled player was. Then it came out maybe a week or two later that Thon was demanding a trade. I'm going with the theory that Gery's info was related to Thon, not Brogdon. That timeline adds up.

No, the report was that a starter was unhappy.

[ReasonablySober]

FWIW I don't know how everyone on the team, especially Giannis, felt about the chemistry issue, and I consider that a big factor. I'm also not saying I really wanted Brogdon. I think he's benefiting a lot from a ridiculously easy schedule, and I think injuries are a big factor.

I'm saying this all from an asset management viewpoint. I would have kept Brogdon only to trade him in a consolidation deal at the first good opportunity. But it's not like Brogdon didn't prove to be a good fit while he was year, so I'm not advocating something that would have significantly compromised their ability to contend for the sake of asset management and a more sustainable Brewers-esque plan.

As much as I'm not a huge Brogdon fan, I'm not a big Khris fan either. Haven't been for a while. Regardless of scoring numbers (remember that stat that ways shoved down our throats all the time about Redd increasing his scoring average every year for 6 years or whatever?), he hasn't been the same since the end of 2016. He was much more mobile. I thought the Bucks have Reggie Miller Lite (if you have to imagine a parallel universe where Miller Lite isn't gross, do so now). Now they basically have Big Dog or Redd or something.

Also, with Brogdon they could have avoided stretching guys like Leuer, or they could have signed someone else besides Brogdon, or just kept Hill on his previous contract so they'd have his full Bird Rights at the end of this season and not commit to paying him $10m when he's 35 or whatever. Unless Giannis insisted on keeping Khris, I think it was a poor choice, but not an unforgivable one.

They got a mid first round pick and some 2nds. The Bucks literally did what you think they should have done.