Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov

[Baddy Chuck]

Speights is a PF and Ellington is a SG. Both of them aren't any good and you didn't answer my question, who's giving up a 1st for cap relief? If anyone does it, it'll be a lux tax team who has a crappy pick and nothing to give.

I don't think either are very good, but I don't think Butler is either. On level of players, I'd say all of them are pretty comparable. Obviously neither are small forwards, but it was simply a trade last season pointing out exactly what you are saying could never happen. It happens quite often, and there were even teams selling firsts last season, which would've been preferable as well to lighting $6 million on fire.

[Baddy Chuck]

Butler's an expiring contract, no long term sacrifice was made here. At worst, this team is out of the playoff race before the trade deadline and Butler can be traded for an asset.

That's obviously been this teams m.o.

The fact that you think Butler has really any value is laughable to me as well. Maybe we could take on Tayshaun Prince's deal for a late first or something, that's probably around Butler's value.

[LittleRooster]

The more I think about it the more I feel blah about this deal.

[worthlessBucks]

Butler's an expiring contract, no long term sacrifice was made here. At worst, this team is out of the playoff race before the trade deadline and Butler can be traded for an asset.

That's obviously been this teams m.o.

Butler, Delfino, and half a dozen seconds for major profit.

[DukeH]

Wrong. We gave up $5.548537 mil in cap space out of our roughly $8 mil in cap space that could have been used this season to facilitate trades and extract at least one 1st round pick and/or a young asset.

Combined with the rest of our roster circumstances, particularly the Delfino & Neal signings, this is a MORONIC trade, as most of Hammond's trades have been, unfortunately.

Butler's worth something at the deadline to a contender and so is Udoh if the Bucks drop out of the playoff race.

Yes, I suppose they are probably each worth a 2nd round pick. So? What we're doing is more counterproductive than a 2nd round pick would make up for.

And lols at thinking $8M cap space would get us a 1st round pick.

Why the "lols"? 1st round picks are sometimes sold for $3 mil cash, straight up. With the more restrictive lux tax. there are opportunities to save teams many times that mount by absorbing salary from them that is a huge burden for those teams.

Also, there are many examples of 1st round picks being extracted in salary dumps. Utah just got a premium 2014 1st, another 1st, and multiple 2nds for eating $23 mil in salary. We couldn't get a 2015 lottery protected 1st from a contender for eating $8 mil in salary and saving them $15+ mil in lux tax payments? The Cavs got an unprotected 1st round pick (they used it on a guy named Kyrie Irving) to eat the difference between the contracts of Mo Williams + Jamrio Moon and Baron Davis. And those are just examples off the top of my head.

I fail to see why a contender's late 1st round pick is that much more exciting than a 2nd round pick. Sure, it gives us more options on the draft board but after the first 15, it's a crap shoot anyhow. I don't see anyone with a lottery pick dumping salary especially with the new CBA, they want as many guys on rookie contracts as possible and are more than happy to keep overpaid underachievers on their team to help their cause.

[trwi7]

At worst, this team is out of the playoff race before the trade deadline and Butler can be traded for an asset.

LOL at thinking the Bucks will trade Butler if they fall out of the playoff race (which they won't, because the East is really, really ****.)

[Max Green]

Also, Butler isn't leading this team to any extra wins. Hell, with an increased role on the offensive end he's more likely to lose us additional games. He's a role player at this point in his career.

[DukeH]

At worst, this team is out of the playoff race before the trade deadline and Butler can be traded for an asset.

LOL at thinking the Bucks will trade Butler if they fall out of the playoff race (which they won't, because the East is really, really ****.)

Here's to hoping

Call me crazy, but I root for my teams to win.

[blazza18]

I'm not really worried about Caron taking minutes from the young guys, he's most likely coming here to replace Delfino's minutes who's still hurt. Skiles & crew and their vendetta against some young guys are not here anymore.

I'd just like to know why get Delfino in the first place ?

Probably to have a cheap stopgap veteran at the position Yanni could learn from until he is ready to take over the position.

But why couldn't Butler be that guy ? And he's only here for 1 season. It's like we don't plan more than a few days ahead when we make moves.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

I want everyone to realize that of all the cap space we were able to have this offseason, we used $12.048537 mil on Carlos Delfino, Gary Neal, and Caron Butler.

$17.248537 mil on Delfino, Neal, Butler, and Zaza.

We used $30 mil on Delfino, Neal, Butler, Zaza, Ridnour, and Mayo. I can't recall a less effective use of $30 mil of cap space in the history of the NBA. And I have paid VERY close attention to how teams use cap space since 1994...

The 2010 offseason was far worse since those were long term deals at big money.

That 2010 ofseason we were operating over the salary cap and re-signed Salmons while giving the MLE to Drew Gooden. We've all seen plenty of foolish spending by teams over the salary cap trying to utilize every dollar they can to get "better" in the short term.

But what I was speaking to was actual space UNDER the salary cap. You can do SIGNIFICANT things with the amount of cap space we had this offseason. You could sign 2 max contract guys. Or you could do something like Utah did in acquiring a 2014 1st, another 1st, and multiple 2nds while at the same time setting yourself up to be a bad team and better your own 2014 1st and 2nd. The Bucks did neither of those things, and instead just brought in a bunch of decent players.

Still. Your point stands. We brought in a ton of non needle movers rather than trying to use the space for one larger move.

Bring in Butler with Bledsoe? Great job Hammond. Bring in Butler because your front office didn't properly diagnose Delfino's medical situation and you still feel you need a "win now" vet? Same old Bucks. Let's all bend over and get ready for our 34 wins and 9th seed.

Exactly.

[vlietinho]

Looks like its just Ish and Slava (no picks) for Caron.......eh

At least we didn't give anything away to get him.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

I fail to see why a contender's late 1st round pick is that much more exciting than a 2nd round pick. Sure, it gives us more options on the draft board but after the first 15, it's a crap shoot anyhow.

I hate this mindset. Having a higher draft pick is always worth something. Why completely disregard something that will improve your odds at something that you call a "crap shoot"? A team like the Bucks needs more opprotunities and better odds at said "crap shoot" in order to have long term success.

I don't see anyone with a lottery pick dumping salary especially with the new CBA, they want as many guys on rookie contracts as possible and are more than happy to keep overpaid underachievers on their team to help their cause.

It doesn't make sense for you to argue that teams want to keep players on rookie contracts because they are cheap while at the same time not caring about dumping overpaid underachievers. This especially dismisses my point about teams with luxury tax concerns.

[vlietinho]

I'm not really worried about Caron taking minutes from the young guys, he's most likely coming here to replace Delfino's minutes who's still hurt. Skiles & crew and their vendetta against some young guys are not here anymore.

I'd just like to know why get Delfino in the first place ?

Good question!

From the wiretap :'The report cites that Carlos Delfino could miss the entire preseason and even a portion of the regular season.'

I dont get it either

[Baddy Chuck]

This is just another example of the Bucks having FAR more emphasis on the "staying competitive" part rather then putting an asset into the "while rebuilding" part. They don't care at all about truly getting this team better. As long as they are better then the worst Kohl and co. will be happy. Butler makes them minimally better, but better nonetheless, at the expense of an asset that could have had the potential to make them substantially better, even if the odds of that happening were small. We'll see if they use Butler as an asset, not even good ole Jim can believe the odds of them doing that are high though, even if out of the playoff race. It's one of a long line of moves the Bucks have made this season to be better then the awful, but probably not even good enough to get to the middle and like always, at the expense of assets.

[bucksbrewers3]

I think of this as when stack was on the team. hes a solid vet that can help the younger guys on the team and provide a great locker room attitude. he's not in his prime but he is still going to put up around 10 a game with the potential to get that 20 point night. This doesn't move the needle a lot for me in the positive direction but it does move it. we also didn't get rid of anything more than the last two guys on the bench.

[Max Green]

I'd just like to know why get Delfino in the first place ?

Probably to have a cheap stopgap veteran at the position Yanni could learn from until he is ready to take over the position.

But why couldn't Butler be that guy ? And he's only here for 1 season. It's like we don't plan more than a few days ahead when we make moves.

When we signed Delfino we were still going with the full on win-now plan and I'm assuming he was supposed to be a backup to the starting caliber Small-Forward we were gonna sign/trade for. (AK47, Granger, Iggy etc..)

[DukeH]

I fail to see why a contender's late 1st round pick is that much more exciting than a 2nd round pick. Sure, it gives us more options on the draft board but after the first 15, it's a crap shoot anyhow.

I hate this mindset. Having a higher draft pick is always worth something. Why completely disregard something that will improve your odds at something that you call a "crap shoot"? A team like the Bucks needs more opprotunities and better odds at said "crap shoot" in order to have long term success.

I don't see anyone with a lottery pick dumping salary especially with the new CBA, they want as many guys on rookie contracts as possible and are more than happy to keep overpaid underachievers on their team to help their cause.

It doesn't make sense for you to argue that teams want to keep players on rookie contracts because they are cheap while at the same time not caring about dumping overpaid underachievers. This especially dismisses my point about teams with luxury tax concerns.

I like the trade because it improves the odds of winning without crippling the team long-term, and no, I don't expect huge things out of this team this season but there was a clear hole at the 3 and a move needed to be made. There were worse moves out there like Wallace or Gay, this at least gives the Bucks options at SF and Butler is a good locker room guy who, according to a poster much earlier in the thread, has aspiration of coaching which should benefit the young players on the roster.

We still have a decent amount of cap space next season and a competitive team this season, we were never going to be bad enough to get that top-10 pick people keep clamoring over anyhow and this move gives Drew an alternative to playing Delfino too much. Holding out for a possible late 1st rounder isn't that important to me, nor do I see it as being very probable in the first place.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

At worst, this team is out of the playoff race before the trade deadline and Butler can be traded for an asset.

LOL at thinking the Bucks will trade Butler if they fall out of the playoff race (which they won't, because the East is really, really ****.)

Here's to hoping

Call me crazy, but I root for my teams to win.

In a shortsighted way, of course you do.

If given the options of either receiving a fish, or being taught how to fish, you'd probably take the fish...

And because we'd get upset that you took the fish, you'd accuse us of wanting you to go hungry...

[JayMKE]

Meh. Ish and Kratsov probably candidates to get cut anyways, I would of been mad if we included picks. Really no idea why we signed Delfino to the deal we did tho.

[Baddy Chuck]

I think of this as when stack was on the team. hes a solid vet that can help the younger guys on the team and provide a great locker room attitude. he's not in his prime but he is still going to put up around 10 a game with the potential to get that 20 point night. This doesn't move the needle a lot for me in the positive direction but it does move it. we also didn't get rid of anything more than the last two guys on the bench.

We gave up nearly $6 million in cap space, that is a better asset then just about anything on our roster besides the obvious.