PG Pistons - Giannis & Brook!

[Ron Swanson]

I guess my question for all the Trade Dame folks is, if he's not a good offensive pairing/fit with Giannis, then who is? A theoretical modern day Oscar Robertson? Or are you guys really pining for the days of us having to grind out a 108 to 106 Offensive-Rating type slugfest for 4 straight playoff rounds, but now with worse coaching?

[BUCKnation]

This was a pretty important. Pistons, with Cade, are a pretty frisky team, so it not just a typical crap Pistons team. With health, I could see them in the 30-35 wins range pretty easily.

Off a b2b and down 18, they could have easily just binned this one and lost by 30, so it was a credit to them to get back into it, especially from the vets who have been the most guilty of letting games go when it gets tough. After that Sasser 3 and 'foul' I may have just admitted defeat on this year and the bball gods have something against us.

As we were talking about in the last PG thread, we finally got some positive regression and normalcy from guys we thought could take over offensively for stretches. Awesome game from Brook, he finally got some shots going and that short stretch during the run from GTJ was great as well. We expected going into the season that GTJ is a pretty good asset and just getting normal GTJ would be huge, especially with the emergence of the young guys.

[machu46]

Trade Dame for what? The team is completely devoid of talent around Giannis, specifically offensive talent, and you want to trade Dame lol? The offense was gross yesterday, it took a historic performance to beat the Pistons, including overcoming a 99.36% chance of someone making at least 1 of 2 free throws. Trade everyone but Dame.

Putting my nerd hat on for a sec, I think it's technically more like a 90-94% chance depending on what you think of Holland as a free throw shooter, but yeah, our need for offense is pretty obvious. If you're super optimistic about it, Green had an off shooting night and we should theoretically get a boost when Middleton returns someday.

Delon Wright and Jackson provide so little on the offensive end though, and even guys like Trent and Green who can provide shooting are pretty limited overall.

[Matches Malone]

For the record, I'm not on the trade Dame train. But the pairing is something to consider when they both seem to excel when the other is out, but together, the offense becomes more your turn my turn as opposed to this well-oiled machine. Maybe Khris comes back and completely changes that chemistry like they had going last year, but Khris is becoming less and less dependable by the day.

[machu46]

I guess my question for all the Trade Dame folks is, if he's not a good offensive pairing/fit with Giannis, then who is? A theoretical modern day Oscar Robertson? Or are you guys really pining for the days of us having to grind out a 108 to 106 Offensive-Rating type slugfest for 4 straight playoff rounds, but now with worse coaching?

I'm definitely not in the Trade Dame camp, but I wouldn't really blame someone for thinking in a perfect world, it might be better to have a less talented offensive player at point that's better defensively, or even just a worse version of Dame if it means also acquiring better defensive players at other positions. It's a balancing act though and I just really don't see our front office opting to even attempt trading Dame after how big of a move it was to get him.

[fan230]

Every game should revolve around Giannis all the time.

Throw the " Giannis at the screener" BS in the garbage where it belongs.

He's the man

Giannis the screener is a terrible concept. He is the leader. Others need to be able to score without leaning on the crutch of someone like Giannis continually screening for them. Let Giannis play like the mvp that he is. See the excitement and performance of the team. I am tired of seeing a slow half court game of bringing the ball up and then waiting for someone to screen so that a long range shot can be hurled up. It will not work for this team.

[Prez]

The whole point of having a guy like Dame is that he's a 27/5/7 60% TS offensive PG who gives you a puncher's chance in any series if he's on + Giannis is on. We were blowing the doors off teams last season in lineups with Giannis/Dame and despite the rough start to the season I see no reason to believe we can't still kill it in those lineups this season as the year progresses.

What I know for a fact is that our offensive creation talent outside of Giannis/Dame is an atrocity and crime against basketball, and will 1000% never hold up in any playoff series against any good playoff team. So unless we're getting back like multiple good offensive players with off the dribble scoring/playmaking capabilities to make up for it, it's a trade for the sake of making a trade to me.

Start by trading Bobby for whatever hustle/energy/defensively competent backup big we can find. If we do that, Khris is back, Green/Dre/Rollins continue to be incorporated into the rotation and things are still not working, then we can explore Dame trades.

[machu46]

For the record, I'm not on the trade Dame train. But the pairing is something to consider when they both seem to excel when the other is out, but together, the offense becomes more your turn my turn as opposed to this well-oiled machine. Maybe Khris comes back and completely changes that chemistry like they had going last year, but Khris is becoming less and less dependable by the day.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but we were lights out when Giannis and Dame shared the floor last year and in the negative when only one of them were on the floor (and unsurprisingly disastrous when neither was on).

[drew881]

So Brook was a -8 last night despite putting up 29 himself.

When Khris comes back, I’d much rather see a lineup with Dame-SG who plays D - Midds - PF who can play D and Giannis at center.

I don’t think Giannis will want to do it, but we need the mobility to play against modern teams.

[LUKE23]

FWIW, GA/Dame was the 10th best 2-man lineup last year (+10.5), if you put cutoff at 1,500 minutes. There were 75 two-man lineups that qualified.

[old skool]

I think the trade proposals are pretty lame. The Bucks should not make trades for the sake of trades. But they should pursue and make any trade that will clearly make the Bucks a better team.

There is no benefit of roster turnover for the sake of change. That is never a success in the NBA.

Trades are complicated for 2nd apron teams.

[LUKE23]

So Brook was a -8 last night despite putting up 29 himself.

When Khris comes back, I’d much rather see a lineup with Dame-SG who plays D - Midds - PF who can play D and Giannis at center.

I don’t think Giannis will want to do it, but we need the mobility to play against modern teams.

They will likely not start games that way, but Brook in general is matchup dependent. You can't play him big minutes verses Boston or Indiana. You can against Cleveland, Philly, Miami, Orlando.

I definitely agree on the starter next to Dame. Put the best on-ball defender there regardless of offensive skill.

[Matches Malone]

FWIW, GA/Dame was the 10th best 2-man lineup last year (+10.5), if you put cutoff at 1,500 minutes. There were 75 two-man lineups that qualified.

What are their numbers together just under Doc? Anything change going from Griff to him?

[LUKE23]

What are their numbers together just under Doc? Anything change going from Griff to him?

That kind of analysis is beyond my pay grade.

[Matches Malone]

What are their numbers together just under Doc? Anything change going from Griff to him?

That kind of analysis is beyond my pay grade.

Maybe something to consider when throwing out numbers for their two-man game. It seems clunkier under Doc even if everyone wants to throw around all these positive offensive metrics going all the way to the start of Dames Bucks tenure. Not everything is as black and white as everyone makes it seem.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

after sleeping on it i think dame is still untouchable assuming we listen to all offers and dont like what we hear

4 things i feel are true.

first... there are a ton of deals that would be offered that would make us immeditely worse.
second.... theres a few out there that would be static or immediately make us marginally better.
third.... doing nothing makes us worse each year moving forward in an exponentially accelerating fashion
fourth....this team as constructed today even after last night is still going....NOWHERE!

[LUKE23]

Maybe something to consider when throwing out numbers for their two-man game. It seems clunkier under Doc even if everyone wants to throw around all these positive offensive metrics going all the way to the start of Dames Bucks tenure. Not everything is as black and white as everyone makes it seem.

Valid. My counter would be - if Doc cannot get a trio to work that was operating at a +17.5 clip, what evidence is there that he's going to get a lesser set of offensive players to work if you make a Dame trade?

[tydett]

The whole point of having a guy like Dame is that he's a 27/5/7 60% TS offensive PG who gives you a puncher's chance in any series if he's on + Giannis is on. We were blowing the doors off teams last season in lineups with Giannis/Dame and despite the rough start to the season I see no reason to believe we can't still kill it in those lineups this season as the year progresses.

What I know for a fact is that our offensive creation talent outside of Giannis/Dame is an atrocity and crime against basketball, and will 1000% never hold up in any playoff series against any good playoff team. So unless we're getting back like multiple good offensive players with off the dribble scoring/playmaking capabilities to make up for it, it's a trade for the sake of making a trade to me.

Start by trading Bobby for whatever hustle/energy/defensively competent backup big we can find. If we do that, Khris is back, Green/Dre/Rollins continue to be incorporated into the rotation and things are still not working, then we can explore Dame trades.

We're using Pat **** Connaughton in our guard rotation and yet people want to get rid of our best guard for another player who's gonna come in, play great defense, and dish out 10 assists a game that the opposing team is happy to trade for Dame.

[Prez]

FWIW, GA/Dame was the 10th best 2-man lineup last year (+10.5), if you put cutoff at 1,500 minutes. There were 75 two-man lineups that qualified.

What are their numbers together just under Doc? Anything change going from Griff to him?

Post Griffin firing the net rating for Dame/Giannis 2-man lineup was +11.5

[emunney]

Trade Dame for what? The team is completely devoid of talent around Giannis, specifically offensive talent, and you want to trade Dame lol? The offense was gross yesterday, it took a historic performance to beat the Pistons, including overcoming a 99.36% chance of someone making at least 1 of 2 free throws. Trade everyone but Dame.

Putting my nerd hat on for a sec, I think it's technically more like a 90-94% chance depending on what you think of Holland as a free throw shooter, but yeah, our need for offense is pretty obvious. If you're super optimistic about it, Green had an off shooting night and we should theoretically get a boost when Middleton returns someday.

Delon Wright and Jackson provide so little on the offensive end though, and even guys like Trent and Green who can provide shooting are pretty limited overall.

Holland should have never been on the line, but also let's not pretend like this is a game of pure chance. He wasn't close on either of them. He damn near Giannised the first one. The young man choked.