PG Indy - Scott Foster Special

[ReasonablySober]

I mean, there is plenty of blame for the org for not drafting at even a league average success rate and epically botching two coaching hires.

You're right, coaching hires were definitely a huge **** up. I don't know how I let that one go.

Drafting I disagree with. Lack of lottery picks is gonna doom any team long term.

You can find role players outside of the lottery. I understand Horst going high ceiling, but some higher floor picks could have really helped us.

They've got a ton of role players. The entire team is role players. Pretty solid ones. But the Bucks lack any young high end talent beyond the top two. Dame hasn't really fit, Giannis and Brook aren't the defensive forces they were a few years ago, and the coaching sucks. Window's closed.

[Plossum]

You're right, coaching hires were definitely a huge **** up. I don't know how I let that one go.

Drafting I disagree with. Lack of lottery picks is gonna doom any team long term.

You can find role players outside of the lottery. I understand Horst going high ceiling, but some higher floor picks could have really helped us.

Seems unlikely we’ll ever get that second wind that the Duncan Spurs did when they drafted TP and Manu. We got cruelled by injuries just as the team hit its straps with the 21 title. But at least we got one.

Feels a bit doomerish to say, but likely the Giannis era will yield one title and one ECF. That’s obv great for the franchise but simultaneously disappointing considering we have a player of Giannis’ caliber.

They've got a ton of role players. The entire team is role players. Pretty solid ones. But the Bucks lack any young high end talent beyond the top two. Dame hasn't really fit, Giannis and Brook aren't the defensive forces they were a few years ago, and the coaching sucks. Window's closed.

[RiotPunch]

You're right, coaching hires were definitely a huge **** up. I don't know how I let that one go.

Drafting I disagree with. Lack of lottery picks is gonna doom any team long term.

You can find role players outside of the lottery. I understand Horst going high ceiling, but some higher floor picks could have really helped us.

They've got a ton of role players. The entire team is role players. Pretty solid ones. But the Bucks lack any young high end talent beyond the top two. Dame hasn't really fit, Giannis and Brook aren't the defensive forces they were a few years ago, and the coaching sucks. Window's closed.

Sure. GTJ, Green, Prince, etc. Role players that offer spacing and questionable defense. That doesn't discount the inability to add a different variety of role player. Just this draft alone, a guy like Dunn or TSJ could have potentially added elements of defensive disruption that we do not currently possess. Horst fell in love with a kid with tools, where there were dudes that could fill legitimate needs. Then he traded him to get off of Middleton.

Asset management, baby.

[RiotPunch]

But I agree, window is closed with Doc at the helm.

[mediocrityrules]

But I agree, window is closed with Doc at the helm.

I really do hate to agree with this take, but it's where I'm leaning as well.

[Dick Tate]

I thought a fundamental rule in basketball was if a player had to make a prayer to tie the game, don’t give them a chance to win with a **** foul.

[Dick Tate]

The same posters who are complaining that a challenge shouldn't have been made would be complaining if the Bucks lost and hadn't challenged it.

Probably. But I will say when Doc took kind of a pointless 2nd timeout early in the 4th, I was thinking it was going to come back to haunt him.

[rilamann]

Is there a better angle replay of that shot? I’m not sure Giannis touched him or prevented him from his landing spot (unlike the Butler foul).

What Giannis did do, was up 3 under 5 seconds left, he covered the guy rolling to the hoop. The guy in the lane.

That's why he was late and why he fouled.

Clown shoes by the MVP.

That and also, doing that hard of a contest on a 3pt prayer when you're up 3 with 3 seconds is insane.

Even if you want to argue that it was a weak foul, why even contest like that on a prayer-shot and give the ref an opportunity to make the call.

Haliburton's shot was a prayer he launched as he was in mid-air flying into the Buck's bench, and Giannis contested the shot like prime Ray Allen just set his feet and squared up on him....lol.

Just put a hand up and if you jump, jump straight up. Don't hard-contest on a desperation shot. Take your chances, and if he makes the desperation shot he makes it.

But don't give the guy an opportunity to win the game with a free throw. Or give the guy the opportunity to tie the game with 3 free throws if the desperation shot misses.

To me, it actually makes it even crazier when you think about the fact that even if Hail didn't make the lucky desperation shot, he would have still had the opportunity to tie the game and send it into overtime at the free throw line, thanks to Giannis and his clown shoes.

[fan230]

Before blaming Giannis, one should read how this was caused by a bad defensive play by Prince. See the Journal Sentinel article.

[drew881]

The same posters who are complaining that a challenge shouldn't have been made would be complaining if the Bucks lost and hadn't challenged it.

Probably. But I will say when Doc took kind of a pointless 2nd timeout early in the 4th, I was thinking it was going to come back to haunt him.

Do we have any data on types of calls being overturned in the NBA? Aside from the charge/block, I feel like contest foul calls aren’t overturned much. Probably an out of bounds call off a player gets overturned the most.

In any case, point being is that as a casual fan, I know this call isn’t getting overturned. They would hopefully have data that could help to tell situationally what challenges might work. Or you are just trying to placate your star player who was immediately asking for a challenge.

[Bucksmaniac]

Kuzma trade was always about next year. Picking up $13mm in net salary to stay out of the 2nd apron and have a serviceable player, who can be dealt at neutral value.

We're running out of 'next years' to take advantage of one of the greatest ever players on our team.

Your name says it all. Dame has not given the organization any indication he cares and has not given any indication he can give Giannis the support he needs. Neither has Doc. At lest Doc won something in a previous life I guess. When Giannis inevitably wants out sooner than people expect he'll probably get framed as the bad guy but who can really blame him?

Truthfully for a superstar player his free throw shooting puts us at a handicap every game. Shaq could get away with it because he had a Kobe alongside him, we do not.

[Jstock12]

I have a problem with that foul call. The argument Foster gave was "for not allowing the shooter to land safely" - now that argument would be okay if it was just some regular shot during the game where the shooting player was jumping completely straight. Haliburton was jumping and falling to the side while he was shooting that. He himself initiated that "unsafe" fall. If you start enforcing this interpretation in all late game situations like that, you're essentially disallowing the defensive players to contest any shot. Because if you call that foul while the offensive player is falling to the side, you have to call it when he's shooting and falling forward as well.

Just a great defensive contest by Giannis that got punished... Sigh.

[German Athens]

I generally think the landing space foul has been one of the worst rules added that possibly doesn’t exist if the most injury prone player of his generation doesn’t happen to get injured on that type of play.

Players sprain their ankles more on drives and going for rebounds far more often than they do on jumpers.

The ball has already left their hand, the challenge has been made. If a player non-forcibly touches another players abdomen after the ball has been released, and the player, who’s already off balance, falls to the ground, what are we even doing anymore?

It’s taking contact out of a contact sport, and you’re left watching freaking darts.

If you can’t make the slightest contact on a player shooting then how come that’s not also applied when you are going to the hoop? For the record, I don’t want to see that called either - it would absolutely suck to watch teams shoot 60 fts per game.


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[Ron Swanson]

The Jimmy trade was the only move that I had any faith in bringing us a championship this season, but the organization opted for a slightly younger and much worse player along with offseason cap flexibility. It is what it is, but Kuzma getting benched in the 4th quarter and closing lineup is a pretty big indictment on this whole process. Smart move would have been to go either all-in (Jimmy), or acquire future assets with an eye for next season. Instead, we split the difference and decided to embrace a half season treadmill. Horst ain't the GM for the job that's coming. Him and Doc need to be gone as soon as the season clock hits zero.

[emunney]

Why are you all characterizing a corner 3 from a great shooter as "a prayer"? We would be rightfully crushing Giannis if he hadn't made a strong contest. You guys are acting like it was some 3/4 court heave. It was a high-difficulty shot *because* of the contest.

[MickeyDavis]

The Jimmy trade was the only move that I had any faith in bringing us a championship this season, but the organization opted for a slightly younger and much worse player along with offseason cap flexibility. It is what it is, but Kuzma getting benched in the 4th quarter and closing lineup is a pretty big indictment on this whole process. Smart move would have been to go either all-in (Jimmy), or acquire future assets with an eye for next season. Instead, we split the difference and decided to embrace a half season treadmill. Horst ain't the GM for the job that's coming. Him and Doc need to be gone as soon as the season clock hits zero.

Do we know that a deal for JImmy was on the table that Horst turned down?

[emunney]

I generally think the landing space foul has been one of the worst rules added that possibly doesn’t exist if the most injury prone player of his generation doesn’t happen to get injured on that type of play.

Players sprain their ankles more on drives and going for rebounds far more often than they do on jumpers.

The ball has already left their hand, the challenge has been made. If a player non-forcibly touches another players abdomen after the ball has been released, and the player, who’s already off balance, falls to the ground, what are we even doing anymore?

It’s taking contact out of a contact sport, and you’re left watching freaking darts.

If you can’t make the slightest contact on a player shooting then how come that’s not also applied when you are going to the hoop? For the record, I don’t want to see that called either - it would absolutely suck to watch teams shoot 60 fts per game.


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The landing space rule should be limited to the space from which you jumped and egregious Bruce Bowen / Zaza cases of a guy deliberately sticking his foot in there. As a shooter, you shouldn't be able to manipulate your landing space by jumping toward the defender or kicking out or whatever. Not that it applies to this case because Giannis wasn't in his landing space.

[Ron Swanson]

The Jimmy trade was the only move that I had any faith in bringing us a championship this season, but the organization opted for a slightly younger and much worse player along with offseason cap flexibility. It is what it is, but Kuzma getting benched in the 4th quarter and closing lineup is a pretty big indictment on this whole process. Smart move would have been to go either all-in (Jimmy), or acquire future assets with an eye for next season. Instead, we split the difference and decided to embrace a half season treadmill. Horst ain't the GM for the job that's coming. Him and Doc need to be gone as soon as the season clock hits zero.

Do we know that a deal for JImmy was on the table that Horst turned down?

We know that we were strongly indicated in the talks for him, we know that we were shopping Bobby even with the suspension looming, and we know that we were willing to attach/dump assets (AJ Johnson) to flip Khris for a more reliable wing. Sure, I don't know for sure how close we were, but you can't convince me that Jimmy isn't a Buck right now if we actually put our best offer on the table. Miami didn't do that trade because they loved Andrew Wiggins and Kyle Anderson. They just wanted Jimmy gone and to get whatever assets they could for him.

[emunney]

So you didn't want to challenge that? I thought it was clearly not a foul and I would rather take that 50/50 overturn with OT than advancing the ball

There was nothing clear about it. That's your rose-colored glasses. It's a judgment call, which you don't control. What you do control, is drawing up a play in the halfcourt, & hitting a shot, which even could have been a layup.

If you want to challenge every questionable call at the end, then save more than 1 TO. He had 2 TO's w/ a couple minutes left. Doc regularly is w/out any TO's at the end to either challenge or advance. He doesn't think ahead.

I agree that I'm playing for the win here and making sure I can advance the ball and get a better shot, particularly since I can make a 2 to win. I don't think it's super clear cut, though. 3.4 is just a little bit too little time for me. One more second and I might go the challenge route.

[Profound23]

Why are you all characterizing a corner 3 from a great shooter as "a prayer"? We would be rightfully crushing Giannis if he hadn't made a strong contest. You guys are acting like it was some 3/4 court heave. It was a high-difficulty shot *because* of the contest.

It was great defense, no foul is called if Haliburton doesn't throw himself to the ground in an awkward fashion. The refs controlled that game for Indy for most of the second half. I don't understand how anyone can get on Giannis for that. Let's get back on track and win three of the next four.