Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

[DutchManDanFan]

Midds contract is not pretty, but I don't think the Bucks could have risked losing the allstar. Giannis would not have liked it if Khris left or needed a long period of negotiation. The chance Giannis doesn't sign the supermax with the Bucks would have been much higher with Khris gone.

With Brogdon resigned, we wouldn't have Hill back, would we? I rather have Hill who is satisfied to be the 6th man and backup PG role. And cheaper, not injured and with the Indy picks.

[soxperry]

To the people who are stumping for Bledsoe...

So you're completely comfortable facing Philly in the playoffs with Bledsoe?

Let me rephrase that:

You're completely comfortable going up against an incredibly gifted defensive team in the playoffs (again) that will have the added benefit of sagging off Bledsoe at the three point line all series?

Like .. do you understand how basketball works?

So we can bench Bledsoe in the series, much like the Toronto series, and have only our backups to try and save us.. or we can deal him now before his third straight playoff failure is documented and get a talented player who can shoot the ball. I would prefer to go all in for a star if possible but if its not, a Bledsoe trade gives us a better chance than we have now.

I dont care how many points he is scoring against scrub regular season teams. Have you watched him play? Half of his decisions are absolute crap.

Bledsoe: He's gotta go

funny you should use philly with simmons at point to pick an argument

Yes, except i was talking about their defense not their offense. We already have one guy on the floor who runs the offense and is still finding his shot from 3. It would be best if there werent two of them.

[soxperry]

To the people who are stumping for Bledsoe...

So you're completely comfortable facing Philly in the playoffs with Bledsoe?

Let me rephrase that:

You're completely comfortable going up against an incredibly gifted defensive team in the playoffs (again) that will have the added benefit of sagging off Bledsoe at the three point line all series?

Like .. do you understand how basketball works?

So we can bench Bledsoe in the series, much like the Toronto series, and have only our backups to try and save us.. or we can deal him now before his third straight playoff failure is documented and get a talented player who can shoot the ball. I would prefer to go all in for a star if possible but if its not, a Bledsoe trade gives us a better chance than we have now.

I dont care how many points he is scoring against scrub regular season teams. Have you watched him play? Half of his decisions are absolute crap.

Bledsoe: He's gotta go

You're insane if you think teams can just sag off Bledsoe. He's still a NBA player and he's not Ben Simmons (who's on Philly btw). So how do you replace his defense? How do you replace his ball handling? How do you replace everything else he provides? Who is this all-star? Who is the bum you'd trade Bledsoe for that gives you half of what he does? That player doens't exist, and if he did why would they trade for the vastly inferior Bledsoe? Giannis is hitting threes can teams really just sag off him like they did in Toronto?

Ideally you would use picks plus Bledsoe to upgrade him... Thats pretty obvious. No idea who would be available but right now hes the weak spot. Teams absolutely sag off of him and dare him to shoot every single game. Korver gets chased around like a dog and can barely move without someone in his face. How many times have you seen Bled get the ball at the three point line and just stand there for a second before slowly hoisting another three pointer? You watch the games, right? They are begging him to shoot...and he does.

33% last season and 30% this season on almost 5 per game. That may be forgivable if he were a smart, disciplined player but hes not. The guy isnt a champion.

[Ron Swanson]

I was once told by a lot of people on this same board that "you know a contract is bad when you're immediately justifying how it won't be hard to move"....

This whole Brogdon is the better trade asset angle is just one big goal-post moving talking point that'll shield the "we should have kept Brogdon" side from having to ever concede the argument, and I'm still trying to stay pretty neutral on the whole thing.

No goal post moving on my part. I’ve been in the Brogdon/Bojan was better for future roster/payroll flexibility from day one versus Middleton. And in the basketball court, I’d rather have those two guys, than one Middleton. (And yes, I would have worked the numbers to keep Hill, which was plausible.)

But, once the Bucks made the decision for Middleton, I’m fine with what they did with Brogdon. It would have been too dicey to have a lux tax cost of $50 to $90mm a year tied to a guy with injury issues AND Middleton’s boat anchor contract also. I’m good with getting those draft picks and Wes. But they should have created that trade exception just in case.

And that's fine, but the idea of Brogdon/Bogdonavic being more movable and less of a boat anchor than Middleton means that keeping everyone sans Hill and Mirotic was the best course of action anyways. Re-sign Middleton/Lopez and match Brogdon. Flip Ersan + Sterling to ORL for DJ Augustine. Boom, there's your playoff rotation, you've kept your starting-5 intact, pay the tax for this season, and if it doesn't work out and you don't win it all, you can move Brogdon in the offseason for picks, avoid the repeater tax, and re-tool.

But sure, I get that your overall proposal is in part due to the view that Bojan isn't much of a downgrade from Middleton, and I guess that's just something that we'll always fundamentally disagree on.

[tedbrogen]

I was once told by a lot of people on this same board that "you know a contract is bad when you're immediately justifying how it won't be hard to move"....

This whole Brogdon is the better trade asset angle is just one big goal-post moving talking point that'll shield the "we should have kept Brogdon" side from having to ever concede the argument, and I'm still trying to stay pretty neutral on the whole thing.

No goal post moving on my part. I’ve been in the Brogdon/Bojan was better for future roster/payroll flexibility from day one versus Middleton. And in the basketball court, I’d rather have those two guys, than one Middleton. (And yes, I would have worked the numbers to keep Hill, which was plausible.)

But, once the Bucks made the decision for Middleton, I’m fine with what they did with Brogdon. It would have been too dicey to have a lux tax cost of $50 to $90mm a year tied to a guy with injury issues AND Middleton’s boat anchor contract also. I’m good with getting those draft picks and Wes. But they should have created that trade exception just in case.

And that's fine, but the idea of Brogdon/Bogdonavic being more movable and less of a boat anchor than Middleton means that keeping everyone sans Hill and Mirotic was the best course of action anyways. Re-sign Middleton/Lopez and match Brogdon. Flip Ersan + Sterling to ORL for DJ Augustine. Boom, there's your playoff rotation, you've kept your starting-5 intact, pay the tax for this season, and if it doesn't work out and you don't win it all, you can move Brogdon in the offseason for picks, avoid the repeater tax, and re-tool.

But sure, I get that your overall proposal is in part due to the view that Bojan isn't much of a downgrade from Middleton, and I guess that's just something that we'll always fundamentally disagree on.

Brogdon isn't as moveable as everyone thinks considering he makes over 20 a year and has no fully healthy seasons in his career.

[emunney]

Why would we be concerned about Philly right now? I feel pretty strongly that if you feel we're flawed because of Bled you're not familiar with what looks like the possible early stages of a fiasco unfolding in Philadelphia.

[buckboy]

Middleton contract is not good. I love Brogdon, but letting him go in part led to the roster getting better. We are on a 65 win pace with the toughest schedule in the league so far that is road heavy.

It's funny that people keep citing our "toughest schedule in the league." It's almost annoying how much that has ignored an important detail:

Almost every one of our tough matchups has sat one of their best - if not their best - player:

Heat sat Butler (and we lost anyway).
Boston sat Brown (and we lost anyway).
Clippers sat Kawhi and PG was still hurt.
Portland sat Lillard
Indy sat Brogdon
Wolves sat KAT

Does anyone really look at this team and think we are better than they were last year? Because while I still think we're very good, we weren't aren't worldbeaters like we were last year. I think it has to do with more than the Brogdon loss - to be clear. But I think we're more exposed overall - when the threes aren't falling, we turtle up.

Everything you say before the question here is true, but to answer the question : there's little doubt in my mind this team is better than last year's.

[emunney]

I think we're a higher variance team offensively--but roughly the same at median--and better defensively.

Donte gets significantly better at making the simple play and he'll be better than Brogdon. I don't view that as a given fwiw. He certainly isn't yet but he's closer than most seem to think.

[DavidDunn21]

We are worse than last year by a good amount. Of course only the playoffs matter, but I'm not sure what games some people are watching. Even if everything else was exactly the same, the Giannis FT yips alone make us far worse. Bledsoe will continue to be our untrustworthy Eastern Conference Westbrook.

I'm very gratified by Donte's early success. Shortening his stroke seems to have been a success. I'd love if he could keep this up, but let's keep it real: he shot 27% from 3 last year and was a 47/38/71 college shooter. He can be helpful to this team, and maybe he can shoot 37% from deep for us this year, but I'm skeptical of any Brogdon comparisons.

[humanrefutation]

I think we're a higher variance team offensively--but roughly the same at median--and better defensively.

Donte gets significantly better at making the simple play and he'll be better than Brogdon. I don't view that as a given fwiw. He certainly isn't yet but he's closer than most seem to think.

If Sterling and/or Donte make a leap through increased PT as a result of this move, then that will make me feel a lot better about the decision to let Brogdon walk - though I still maintain that you keep the best possible roster you can when you're in a title window and Giannis's Supermax is looming, and I don't think that they have a better roster right now than they did in the ECF last year.

But to avoid misunderstanding, I want to emphasize that I'm still cautiously optimistic about them this year. I still think we are capable of winning the East this year. And then it's all a crapshoot depending on who comes out of the West. Clippers scare me. Lakers less so.

[Pachinko_]

We are worse than last year by a good amount. Of course only the playoffs matter, but I'm not sure what games some people are watching. Even if everything else was exactly the same, the Giannis FT yips alone make us far worse. Bledsoe will continue to be our untrustworthy Eastern Conference Westbrook.

I'm very gratified by Donte's early success. Shortening his stroke seems to have been a success. I'd love if he could keep this up, but let's keep it real: he shot 27% from 3 last year and was a 47/38/71 college shooter. He can be helpful to this team, and maybe he can shoot 37% from deep for us this year, but I'm skeptical of any Brogdon comparisons.

Brogdon comparisons are faulty in various other ways anyway, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Fit is hugely important on those Bucks, more important than numbers. Brogdon needs time with the ball in his hands to fully shine, which he sacrificed for us to shoehorn himself in a system that didn't really suit him. Donte does not need the ball, his quote that fully epitomises his game and makes him such a hugely valuable piece is "you're never more open than when you first get the ball". That's exactly the attitude we need from anyone not named Giannis. We made an exception for Mids because he's just such a good creator off the dribble, and he needs some time with the ball to get his game going, but we can't really do it for anyone else. Any more guys like that and you're starting to eat into Giannis's time with the ball in his hands, and that's the last thing we want.

So yes Brogdon > Donte in a vacuum, but in the context of this particular system the Bucks are running Brogdon = Donte*, and Donte is way cheaper. Also Donte can stay in front of anyone on D no matter how fast, and we can use that too.

*As long as he keeps up his current level of play.

[rilamann]

It's still early, so it's hard to say if the Bucks were better last season. My perception so far is that it seems like they're putting fourth less effort this season to get better results than they did last season. I think they're a championship level team that now has the experience, after 60 wins and a long playoff run, that they don't have to try and hit their ceiling in November. We'll see.

[Pachinko_]

It's still early, so it's hard to say if the Bucks were better last season. My perception so far is that it seems like they're putting fourth less effort this season to get better results than last season. I think they're a championship level team that knows they don't have to try and hit thier ceiling in November. We'll see.

We're still warming up, same as last year. Around Xmas we should be ready.

[TroyD92]

We are worse than last year by a good amount. Of course only the playoffs matter, but I'm not sure what games some people are watching. Even if everything else was exactly the same, the Giannis FT yips alone make us far worse. Bledsoe will continue to be our untrustworthy Eastern Conference Westbrook.

I'm very gratified by Donte's early success. Shortening his stroke seems to have been a success. I'd love if he could keep this up, but let's keep it real: he shot 27% from 3 last year and was a 47/38/71 college shooter. He can be helpful to this team, and maybe he can shoot 37% from deep for us this year, but I'm skeptical of any Brogdon comparisons.

This team is coasting and is 12-3, and could have easily been 14-1. Some of you really like to look for the negative in everything. When you look at the top 5 teams in the league this year they are all extremely well matched. Playoffs is going to come down to who performs above and below expectations.

[rilamann]

[tweet][/tweet]

It's still early, so it's hard to say if the Bucks were better last season. My perception so far is that it seems like they're putting fourth less effort this season to get better results than last season. I think they're a championship level team that knows they don't have to try and hit thier ceiling in November. We'll see.

We're still warming up, same as last year. Around Xmas we should be ready.

That's why I have a hard time buying that the team was better last season. We're an overtime, a buzzer beater and a big blown lead in Boston from being 15-0 and it doesn't seem like this team has even flirted with their ceiling or warmed up thus far. Last season it seemed like we had to play harder to win 12 of 15. This season it seems like we're winning 12 of 15 by just showing up.

[tedbrogen]

This team is better than last season based on depth alone, especially this team 15 games in compared to last season at 15 games in. What was the bench depth at the start of last season?

We can compare end of season team strength when we get there, although at that point we have to acknowledge Brogdon was missing last season due to his annual injury.

[MiltownHawkeye]

Is it normal for one to not even have practiced a week after leaving a game with back spasms?

[BroncoBuck]

Is it normal for one to not even have practiced a week after leaving a game with back spasms?

I think he did shoot around yesterday. He’s up to doubtful now.

[paulpressey25]

It's still early, so it's hard to say if the Bucks were better last season. My perception so far is that it seems like they're putting fourth less effort this season to get better results than they did last season. I think they're a championship level team that now has the experience, after 60 wins and a long playoff run, that they don't have to try and hit their ceiling in November. We'll see.

I think this team is better. More experience, depth and versatility.

The problem is Kawhi and LeBron. Both appear to be able to make clutch plays from everywhere. And now both have an All NBA team sidekick.

[MissKhriddleton]

It's still early, so it's hard to say if the Bucks were better last season. My perception so far is that it seems like they're putting fourth less effort this season to get better results than they did last season. I think they're a championship level team that now has the experience, after 60 wins and a long playoff run, that they don't have to try and hit their ceiling in November. We'll see.

I think this team is better. More experience, depth and versatility.

The problem is Kawhi and LeBron. Both appear to be able to make clutch plays from everywhere. And now both have an All NBA team sidekick.

Losing Brogdon definitely hurts our end of game offense. You could trust him not to screw up with a turnover, missed FTs, offensive foul, airball (see Giannis, Khris, Bled).

Our "clutch offense" in the playoffs has to put the ball in Hill's hands, get Giannis moving off the ball toward the basket, and put Brook, Khris, and Donte on the perimeter. Hope Giannis and Donte can make a cut, wreak havoc on the offensive boards, or that Hill can kick it out for an open 3.

If we're in a tie game late in the 4th and putting Giannis isos at the top of the key up against Kawahi or Lebron isos we are going to lose 3/4ths of those games.

I think the hope would have to be that in a 7 game finals series we'd be good enough to win 2-3 games by 10+ and therefore would only have to win a close game once or twice.