Bucks Offseason Thread - Trade, news, re-tool discussion

[paulpressey25]

Giannis 23k
Redd 20k
Bogut 20k
Alston 19k
Ersan 19k
Baddy 17k
Sessions 16k
LRMAM 16k
Meeks 12k
Brogdon 12k

Seven of those guys were picked in the 2nd round. Plausible we've got the worst record of first round draft picks for any team in the NBA since 1996 (although again, Giannis).

Can't really believe Rafer Alston played that many minutes in the NBA.

[Couch Potato]

If anything you could use what Miami is doing right now as an argument against this (IMO exaggerated) notion that the window on the Giannis/Jrue/Middleton core is closed. How many times in the past 4-years (since Jimmy came to Miami) have people written them off only for them to slightly retool/shuffle the deck chairs and go on a deep playoff run? That core looked hella overrated and downright cooked when we swept them in embarrassing fashion during the title run, only for them to come back and get within a game of the NBA Finals simply by swapping Dragic and Ariza for two even older dudes (Lowry and Tucker).

Oh, absolutely. The likeliest and safest route for us returning to the finals is keeping our core 4 intact, and make changes with the others available.

Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if we even hired a somewhat uninspiring coach, just to return to the finals with the team reenergized and getting enough luck along the way. There’s enough there.

With that said, I know I very much have a grass is greener complex with this team, and I desperately want a guard with quicks to pair with Giannis.

Others available isn't much to write home about though. Bobby? Allen? Pat? Beauchamp? New CBA. Middleton player option. Lopez UFA. Carter player option. Only draft pick is #58. Were at the mercy trading point to trade Middleton and Holiday at this point. Yeah we could hold tight with same group and a new coach and hope for the best. But I think we need to retool and regroup. I'm hoping Middleton opts in for a trade or agrees to a sign and trade. I don't mind signing Lopez to a one or two year deal. We need his scoring and D if and when we trade the other two out. I even like the idea of Bobby,Allen,Pat for FVV or Rozier.

[Couch Potato]

When do we hear if Middleton opts in or out? Seems Wire Tap mentioned Harden is opting out. Unless the wiretap showing fake news. If Middleton opts out. Who can max him the same or more he would of got opting in? Rockets and Magic?

[emunney]

And when you factor in that the team has generally sucked before the last 5 years so the picks were usually top 10

6 top ten picks since Bogut and we got *by far* the most mileage out of Jennings, particularly if you consider we eventually traded him for Khris. But not a goddamn one of them was here past his rookie contract, and Jennings is the only one who played his whole rookie contract in Milwaukee.

Other than Jennings (and Jimmer, who we traded on draft night), post rookie contract NBA careers of the 4 top 10 picks we didn't trade:

Yi - 30 games
Thon - 8 games
Jabari - 63 games
Joe Alexander - 0 games (out of league after 2 seasons)

[paulpressey25]

And when you factor in that the team has generally sucked before the last 5 years so the picks were usually top 10

6 top ten picks since Bogut and we got *by far* the most mileage out of Jennings, particularly if you consider we eventually traded him for Khris. But not a goddamn one of them was here past his rookie contract, and Jennings is the only one who played his whole rookie contract in Milwaukee.

Bogut, Yi, Joe Alexander, Brandon, Jabari, Thon

Then of course Jimmer at 10 we traded out of for Tobes and dumping Magette's contract. Klay went #11.

Had to do the math myself to appreciate it.

But that's maybe better than the Wizards. Look at their top ten picks since taking Kwame many years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Wizards_draft_history

[emunney]

And when you factor in that the team has generally sucked before the last 5 years so the picks were usually top 10

6 top ten picks since Bogut and we got *by far* the most mileage out of Jennings, particularly if you consider we eventually traded him for Khris. But not a goddamn one of them was here past his rookie contract, and Jennings is the only one who played his whole rookie contract in Milwaukee.

Bogut, Yi, Joe Alexander, Brandon, Jabari, Thon

Then of course Jimmer at 10 we traded out of for Tobes and dumping Magette's contract. Klay went #11.

Had to do the math myself to appreciate it.

But that's maybe better than the Wizards. Look at their top ten picks since taking Kwame many years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Wizards_draft_history

Kawhi went 15 the Jimmer/Klay/Tobes year also. Frankly we did alright that year, which is what makes it so funny that we almost immediately undid it.

[Fotis St]

Man, we have really struck out on essentially every…
1st round pick
2 way deal
Buyout deal
Mid season trade
… for like 10 years, haven’t we?

In a normal Org Horst would have been fired already, or let me phrase it lore politely, replaced and upgraded by someone else more capable at negotiating, drafting and roster construction (becoming the most aged team in the league with prime 28 Giannis is beyond stupid).

We lost 3 players that the next season averaged salaries 20M each and got only a 1st back. I am talking about Jabari (20M Chicago), Brogdon and Christian Wood. We should have Sign&Trade Jabari, Should have not made a Salary mistake that made the Brogdon trade illegal and ended up losing getting back a contract that hurt us alot on trades. It was crystal clear on our championship year that Brook is unplayable at the playoffs. Bud crash on Brook is probably one of the main reasons we played drop defense ... but there again you guys most here hated the idea to trade Brook midseason this year, cause he was dropping career numbers.

I wish us the best but can't trust Horst doing anything right. He will probably give Khris a max extension, sign Nick Nurse and run it back

[averageposter]

Also this team other than the Mayberry/Day draft never had more than one whack at it far more trade outd than acquire. Seems Like not only the least success but also fewer attempts than average struggling team or no.

[MuckyFingers]

Can't really believe Rafer Alston played that many minutes in the NBA.

The only thing I remember about Alston’s time with the Bucks is when George Karl said after a game that he “played like a turkey.”

[German Athens]

Oh, absolutely. The likeliest and safest route for us returning to the finals is keeping our core 4 intact, and make changes with the others available.

Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if we even hired a somewhat uninspiring coach, just to return to the finals with the team reenergized and getting enough luck along the way. There’s enough there.

With that said, I know I very much have a grass is greener complex with this team, and I desperately want a guard with quicks to pair with Giannis.

Simons?

Yeah, he’d be on my list of younger targets. Maxey would be the first one though, he’s a better defender, tougher, probably quicker, and just seems to have more winning intangibles than simons. I think maxey would be a big win for us, but it would likely require harden staying in Philly.

Simons might be next for me, but it’s a pretty big drop to him, and the motivations to make the deal are murky. Portland is either trading Dame and swinging into youth, which would lead me to think they’d want to keep him unlesss you can find a 3-way deal, like for ayton, where we end up with simons, or they’re keeping dame and then they would likely need simons for salary matching in a larger trade for a star.

Simons, sharpe, #3, and a bunch of picks is a really strong base package for a star.

If a superstar wasn’t available, and they pivoted to multiple vets, they’d probably be interested in Jrue - but I don’t know what they’d add to simons that would make it a good deal for us. I’d be interested in sharpe, but Portland would likely shoot that down.

Maybe simons, thybulle, #23, and their top 10 protected ‘25 first?

[MuckyFingers]

And when you factor in that the team has generally sucked before the last 5 years so the picks were usually top 10

6 top ten picks since Bogut and we got *by far* the most mileage out of Jennings, particularly if you consider we eventually traded him for Khris. But not a goddamn one of them was here past his rookie contract, and Jennings is the only one who played his whole rookie contract in Milwaukee.

Other than Jennings (and Jimmer, who we traded on draft night), post rookie contract NBA careers of the 4 top 10 picks we didn't trade:

Yi - 30 games
Thon - 8 games
Jabari - 63 games
Joe Alexander - 0 games (out of league after 2 seasons)

https://media.tenor.com/7T8xmuwPbEEAAAAd/jump-out-window.gif

[Debit One]

RGM would have had a substantially better draft record just taking majority opinion via poll. You couldn’t do worse if you tried.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nah.

RGM declared that it wouldn’t trade Brandon Jennings for Chris Paul.

I’m not handing that group the GM reins.

[Plossum]

Was listening to Hollinger and Duncan talk about who might trade lotto picks. Then they went into more detail on the 2nd apron.

This 2nd apron is going to be a major problem. The limits on trading draft picks and having your first rounder drop to the end of round one if you are over the apron 2 out of 4 years is a killer. Then the increased tax penalties.

I believe it means that if Khris Middleton doesn't agree to a deal starting at $30mm a year or less, they will let him walk. Or alternatively, the Jrue for the Scoot pick or for Orlando picks deal to shed salary comes into play.

I think one of those two guys is as good as gone, barring Middleton signing for a discount.

Worth noting the Bucks have a committed $158m already for next year's roster for 10 players. This number included Midds' opt-in salary and Jevon's op-in salary. It does not include Brolo, Thanasis, Crowder, Ingles or Wes.

The second apron will kick in around the $180m mark. If Midds opts out and demands a max to re-sign, he'd be eligible for 5/272 from us. Let's assume this happens, our 23-24 salary is now 172m. If Brolo re-signs at say 3/60 then we're at 192m and in that second apron (and that's before we even think about what we do with Jevon or how we fill out the other roster spots). This now really hamstrings our ability to upgrade the roster (we can still trade but can't bring in more money than we send out in a deal).

So at this point we're kinda screwed. The tax payments will be brutal and we're locked into a team of Giannis, Midds, Jrue, Brook, Bobby, Grayson, Marjon, AJ, Pat and whatever vet min guys we can get. Tax bill will also be brutal. This is worst case scenario though.

Best option is Midd's opting in. This means we're starting at the $158m in committed salary and have a bit more flexibility to work with. This is pretty unlikely. Medium option is he opts in and signs and extension which means a deal around 4/220. This at least takes a bit of pressure off for 23-24 season but year after we're right up against that apron from the get go.

I think you're right PP, we're likely going to lose Brook, Jrue or Midds this off season unless the owners are prepared to pay Warriors level money.

Normally you'd hope the billionaires would just pay the money. But even if they do, once we're over that apron at $180m, we've got next to no levers to improve the roster. I'm not advocating we do it, but it might well be worth gauging Midd's or Jrue's value in relation to the top 5 or so picks this year...

Dumb question but when does it kick it? Like it seems unnecessarily punitive and retroactive to count any prior season and even next year when 75% have guaranteed or partially guaranteed contracts.

Allegedly from 1 July albeit I’ve read the NBA is still drafting the new CBA and it hasn’t been formally ratified.

[Plossum]

So here’s an awkward one, what if we keep Midds, Jrue, Giannis but let Brook walk instead? We could prob get a decent-ish big for MLE money (we’d be just under the apron) and slide Giannis into centre where we’ve had most of our success.

[German Athens]

Mke out: Jrue, Grayson
Mke in: simons, thybulle, quickley, toppin, protected 25 first from POR

Nyk out: toppin, quickley
In: Grayson, #23

POR out: simons, thybulle, #23, protected 25 first
In: Jrue

[drone3]

Orlando: Markelle Fultz (expiring), Jonathan Isaac (two years left). Could add in an expiring Gary Harris if we're talking Middleton instead of Jrue depending on what his new contract starts at.

This is the trade:

Jrue ($36mm salary) for pick 6 and pick 11 and Isaac.

Isaac has two years left at $17 million. But this year's deal only has $7mm guaranteed for next year (i.e. we could cut him before Jan 10, 2024 if needed) and then the following year his full $17mm is non-guaranteed.

Orlando can easily absorb more salary due to being under the cap come July 1st.

The real question in the deal above is what do we do with picks #6 and #11? You'd likely trade them for a vet that would fit into the salary cap rules and not blow us into the 2nd apron (or maybe we do if the player(s) coming back are good enough).

As long as we end up with Cason Wallace I'm down. Cason is plug and play in the Jrue role, insane D instincts.

[Couch Potato]

Oh, absolutely. The likeliest and safest route for us returning to the finals is keeping our core 4 intact, and make changes with the others available.

Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if we even hired a somewhat uninspiring coach, just to return to the finals with the team reenergized and getting enough luck along the way. There’s enough there.

With that said, I know I very much have a grass is greener complex with this team, and I desperately want a guard with quicks to pair with Giannis.

Simons?

Yeah, he’d be on my list of younger targets. Maxey would be the first one though, he’s a better defender, tougher, probably quicker, and just seems to have more winning intangibles than simons. I think maxey would be a big win for us, but it would likely require harden staying in Philly.

Simons might be next for me, but it’s a pretty big drop to him, and the motivations to make the deal are murky. Portland is either trading Dame and swinging into youth, which would lead me to think they’d want to keep him unlesss you can find a 3-way deal, like for ayton, where we end up with simons, or they’re keeping dame and then they would likely need simons for salary matching in a larger trade for a star.

Simons, sharpe, #3, and a bunch of picks is a really strong base package for a star.

If a superstar wasn’t available, and they pivoted to multiple vets, they’d probably be interested in Jrue - but I don’t know what they’d add to simons that would make it a good deal for us. I’d be interested in sharpe, but Portland would likely shoot that down.

Maybe simons, thybulle, #23, and their top 10 protected ‘25 first?

My guess would be Blazers wanna keep DAME happy another season so they trade for Middleton for Simons and whatever..... Heck if were getting greedy here. I'll trade Middleton for Simons and Grant and call it a day.

[GoldenAntlers]

Man, we have really struck out on essentially every…
1st round pick
2 way deal
Buyout deal
Mid season trade
… for like 10 years, haven’t we?

Starting to think it might be time for a new GM while we're at it.

[Xanadu]

If anything you could use what Miami is doing right now as an argument against this (IMO exaggerated) notion that the window on the Giannis/Jrue/Middleton core is closed. How many times in the past 4-years (since Jimmy came to Miami) have people written them off only for them to slightly retool/shuffle the deck chairs and go on a deep playoff run? That core looked hella overrated and downright cooked when we swept them in embarrassing fashion during the title run, only for them to come back and get within a game of the NBA Finals simply by swapping Dragic and Ariza for two even older dudes (Lowry and Tucker).

Oh, absolutely. The likeliest and safest route for us returning to the finals is keeping our core 4 intact, and make changes with the others available.

Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if we even hired a somewhat uninspiring coach, just to return to the finals with the team reenergized and getting enough luck along the way. There’s enough there.

With that said, I know I very much have a grass is greener complex with this team, and I desperately want a guard with quicks to pair with Giannis.

Simons?

Yeah i really like the idea of Simons on this team. But is he really worth Jrue in a one for one. Don't think they'd take Middleton straight up. Also don't like adding Simons without having a top tier perimeter defender next to him. So if sending Jrue would need to find someone to replace his D.

[Bucknado]

I was talking to Jrue’s next door neighbor because I’m creepy like that and he says he’s definitely retiring after this deal. His wife has passed up opportunities to do things in soccer for his career that she wants to do. With that knowledge, do you trade him after the season?

No matter what he does, everyone on the 21 team will forever have a special place in my heart and can do no wrong.