Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Bucks deny Pistons to talk to Horst

[jakecronus8]

Pretty much since the moment we acquired Dame I've been advocating for 5 nickels for one quarter type trade for Khris. We have no bench and no defenders. Lets try to get those things.

If you can only get nickels giving up quarters, your problems run far deeper than a lack of nickels.

Can I interest you in two dimes and nickel?

[fansinceforever]

Lol I never advocated for trading Khris for Jeff Green. At least steel man our arguments. Come on. My trade was Khris and Marjon for Brooks, Eason and Whitmore. If that's available (and it probably won't be), I'm not sure how you don't consider it.

Khris for Cam Johnson, DFS and 1st isn't bad either.

I gotta be honest, a lot of these we trade Pat Connaughton, Bobby, 23 and 33 and we end up revamping our roster trades seem way more far fetched.

Sure we can get a good defender back for Bobby. We need more than that...

[emunney]

Pretty much since the moment we acquired Dame I've been advocating for 5 nickels for one quarter type trade for Khris. We have no bench and no defenders. Lets try to get those things.

If you can only get nickels giving up quarters, your problems run far deeper than a lack of nickels.

Can I interest you in two dimes and nickel?

Because you can only use 5 coins at a time, and really only need 8 or 9 total coins, I have very little interest in having a bunch of nickels and would need something like multiple 25c savings bonds.

[fansinceforever]

Yeah but the issue is we know our current 5 coins are too rusty and old to work in the machine. It's time consider cashing them in.

[emunney]

Yeah but the issue is we know our current 5 coins are too rusty and old to work in the machine. It's time consider cashing them in.

You can't possibly still be talking about Khris Middleton.

[fansinceforever]

Yeah but the issue is we know our current 5 coins are too rusty and old to work in the machine. It's time consider cashing them in.

You can't possibly still be talking about Khris Middleton.

Most here love and respect Khris Middleton but we have guys that can get buckets. If I can move him and get 2-3 guys that can play at the current speed of the NBA and knock down some open jumpers/put it in the floor, it's time to consider that.

It has nothing to do with Khris other than his unavailability. This roster has to change or we're done.

[Ron Swanson]

Lol I never advocated for trading Khris for Jeff Green. At least steel man our arguments. Come on. My trade was Khris and Marjon for Brooks, Eason and Whitmore. If that's available (and it probably won't be), I'm not sure how you don't consider it.

Khris for Cam Johnson, DFS and 1st isn't bad either.

I gotta be honest, a lot of these we trade Pat Connaughton, Bobby, 23 and 33 and we end up revamping our roster trades seem way more far fetched.

Sure we can get a good defender back for Bobby. We need more than that...

I was saying a Khris trade centered around Eason/Whitmore is at least interesting. And ironic for all the people poo-pooing our trade assets, if we had done that rumored deadline deal with Dallas, you'd have A) A younger playoff rotation dude and ideal "Giannis small-ball lineup guy" already on the roster, and B) an extra future 1st to trade this offseason. But all certain people wanted to say about that was stuff like "lol that's stupid and Grant Williams is a corpse" and non-ironic mockery from "we need to trade Dame" dudes. Some simple, smart asset management at the deadline could have meant we only need to find 1-2 guys this offseason instead of 2-3.

[emunney]

Yeah but the issue is we know our current 5 coins are too rusty and old to work in the machine. It's time consider cashing them in.

You can't possibly still be talking about Khris Middleton.

Most here love and respect Khris Middleton but we have guys that can get buckets. If I can move him and get 2-3 guys that can play at the current speed of the NBA and knock down some open jumpers/put it in the floor, it's time to consider that.

It has nothing to do with Khris other than his unavailability. This roster has to change or we're done.

The roster's going to change. The roster is always going to change.

But by far, the most important thing that has to be different about next year's playoff roster is that Giannis needs to be available. Every other thing is meager in comparison.

I appreciate the desire to improve and I don't think the offers you've put out there are ridiculous by any means. What I take issue with is the idea that we have to trade any of our best 3 players to win another title. There are guys I think we'd be wise to attempt to replace, but whether we do or not, we're right there.

The core issue with trading Khris for multiple pieces is that the value you lose going from Khris to his replacement is extremely hard to make up by improving the bottom half of your rotation. Those guys are far less important. The best and maybe only way around that is getting a guy who you strongly believe can actually replace Khris, but hasn't explicitly demonstrated it yet. This was what motivated my proposals to trade Khris for Mikal Bridges+ or later for Haliburton. But I don't see a guy like that out there today.

[DanoMac]

Only on this board do people desperately want to trade the one guy that was not only consistent but carrying us on his back in the Playoffs.

I want playoff performers, not regular season speed demons who will slow down in the Playoffs. Trading Middleton should be one of the last things we're looking to do right now. If a team makes a godfather offer, sure, but you don't actively look to trade him.

[humanrefutation]

I don't think this team is in need of major surgery to be a title contender again. I think if Giannis is healthy, we're a serious threat to take down Boston and whoever comes out of the West this year.

With that in mind, I think we're closer to a title with Khris than we are without him. A healthy Khris was the main reason we pushed the Pacers to six games without Giannis and with Dame injured for half the series. A healthy Khris gives us an elite halfcourt operator that is theoretically a perfect fit with Dame and Giannis. Of course, I understand that a healthy Khris is far from a given. But watching him during the Pacers series should give anyone pause on moving him.

I'd rather see what we can do to add a quality wing and 3-D defender without moving Khris. I don't think you need to trade him to make that happen. Hell, if we bring back Bev, nail our draft pick and someone like AJax takes the next step, that might be all that we need.

[machu46]

Yeah but the issue is we know our current 5 coins are too rusty and old to work in the machine. It's time consider cashing them in.

You can't possibly still be talking about Khris Middleton.

Most here love and respect Khris Middleton but we have guys that can get buckets. If I can move him and get 2-3 guys that can play at the current speed of the NBA and knock down some open jumpers/put it in the floor, it's time to consider that.

It has nothing to do with Khris other than his unavailability. This roster has to change or we're done.

emunney summed up my thoughts very well...the only other thing I'd really add is that while we do have guys that can score, we don't have many that can both score and create for teammates the way Middleton can. It's basically Giannis, Dame, and Middleton. Bobby and Brook can certainly create their own shots and do it pretty effectively but they're both relatively black holes.

I do think particularly with the new CBA, you have to kinda consider all options but I think Brook/Bobby are more replaceable/less valuable than Middleton's skillset right now and it's probably simply easier to build a trade package around those guys than it is Middleton right now.

I'd be willing to consider some offers for Middleton, but I don't like the ones that people have thrown out here thus far and I'm guessing he's close to off the table for Horst anyways. I think we likely view Giannis and Middleton as lifers here for better or worse.

[Ron Swanson]

We're seeing young 20-something star players drop like flies in these playoffs (Mitchell, Murray, Haliburton, OG, Hart, Brunson, Porzingis, Luka playing through knee and ankle injuries, etc.), while 36-year old Brook was our healthiest starter, and 37-year old Al Horford is logging 32-minutes a night in the Conference Finals. Need to stop acting like any of us have any clue whether or not Dame/Giannis/Khris can hold up for a full playoff run. These last two postseasons have been an unpredictable war of attrition. It's a crapshoot.

[Fotis St]

Only on this board do people desperately want to trade the one guy that was not only consistent but carrying us on his back in the Playoffs.

I want playoff performers, not regular season speed demons who will slow down in the Playoffs. Trading Middleton should be one of the last things we're looking to do right now. If a team makes a godfather offer, sure, but you don't actively look to trade him.

You are forgetting the most important thing ... Khris was "carrying" us in the playoffs cause he was fresh after missing alot of games and under a minutes restriction for a long period.

Let me explain my thought process...

Bucks do not reach the Playoffs if Giannis and Dame didn't carry us there. It is obvious that carrying Khris load weight was enough to get themselves injured. So my friend, Khris doesn't even have the opportunity to showcase himself at the playoffs with the ball in his hands and Giannis out.

Is that clear ?
Do you forget that Beasley carried us alot offensively with amazing 3p% on high volume?
I honestly hate the disrespect of the Bryn Forbes and the Beasleys of this world.
So lets stop with the "speed demons who cool down in the playoffs" thing you threw there.

[theFireBlanket]

Agree to disagree. I still would like to try all those suggestions if we have to keep KM. How do you suggest they work together? What kind of play actions do you see for our big 3 besides a stagnant Dame and GA watching KM do 2 pointers?

Khris has basically literally only went to the ISO ball play in the playoffs when our Giannis offense went basically completely dry or when Giannis (and Dame) were out of commission with Jrue stinking up the joint.

"Stagnant" Middleton has a 27% assist percentage this season. This is the list of forwards above him on NBA.com, I'll let you believe Luka's not a guard or that Sabonis and Embiid aren't centers and Ben Simmons 15 games count if you want. The absolute peak Carmelo hit was 20.9, with 6 points higher usage, Khris has been higher than that the last 5 seasons while never hitting that usage.



During the season he had a less than 10% iso frequency, that wouldn't even put him in the top 50 of players in the league, despite being a 1.13 PPP guy there, which was 88th in the percentile. Like yup, during the playoffs where our other top 2 scorers were out or hurt that raised to 17.9% at 1.44 PPP which is literally like unreal levels of efficiency. Is he supposed to be passing to Malik Beasley and Bobby Portis? Hell, even if we had GIannis and Dame if Midds is on a heater like that, hell yes you let Giannis and Dame watch him work that's literally like a top 10 scoring spot from ANYONE, ANYWHERE in the entire playoffs. The two years tracked on NBA.com of Melo's were his last two declining years in New York even then he was a 23+% ISO player.

Your arguments outside of the obvious "he's older and slower" have like virtually no existence in reality.

Sorry ahead for the long post -

Ok I can buy all that, for this discussion, let's say the big 3 can find a way play together and share the ball in a complex enough way so as to confuse a playoff opponent 4/7 games.

Let me point you to the other conundrum. You might not believe this or maybe you want to watch some tapes but Bud's defense with Jrue/Wes/GA/Donte/Brook/PJ/ Bledsoe/etc was designed to immediately switch onto KM's man off any penetration, screen, cut, etc to "help" KM and maybe even let him save his legs for offense. So we needed 4 great or
aggressive defenders around KM for that to work and that's fine there isn't anything wrong with that; we got a ring like that. He still defers like that on D and does a lot of pointing after plays instead of being aggressive and taking a man. Now, again, maybe you don't believe that or have to check back but for this discussion just go with me that there's some truth to it.

Here's the problem: Dame needs that too. Idk wtf his bball card or ID say but he's not tall and he's not big. I walked past him and he's slightly bigger than TJ Ford. His feet and legs are better than KM but he can easily get targeted and bully-balled. I'll be even more clear. ANY starter on Boston right now can target Dame and score a bucket on him by backing him down and that includes Jrue. Add to that, imagine how many times Boston would get KM mismatched on Jalen/Tatum/(or half the rest of their rotation guys) would just blow by him like his legs are in quick sand. How much of a hole are we digging ourselves by having 2 STARTERS that can be targeted and scored on at will?

I think this should be considered and thought over by management that even just on defense alone --- you honestly have to pick between Dame and KM. There's not a coach genius enough to hide 2 starters like that. When AG was canned, our record was great but we all saw that the other teams were launching wide open perimeter shots at will because there wasn't any helping or hiding system to hide even a 3rd (Beas) guy that needs help. Keeping both guys together, we're on track to keep being a perennial 1 - 3 seed and lose in the playoffs early because teams aren't going to bother "targeting" in the regular season (but in a series they will).

Bottom line, based on defense alone, you either keep KM and get 4 amazing defenders around him again or keep Dame and get 4 amazing defenders to "help" (hide) him. You know already who I pick -- I'd keep the faster and more dynamic guy.

KM proved he can defend still during the season playing with everyone healthy & in the playoffs while being the #1 scorer, willing an OT game. Give him mpre energy to expend with healthy GA/Dame & surely he'll be able to defend more solidly through each series.

Pascal was scoring the first few games, then KMidd took defending him seriously.

[theFireBlanket]

We're seeing young 20-something star players drop like flies in these playoffs (Mitchell, Murray, Haliburton, OG, Hart, Brunson, Porzingis, Luka playing through knee and ankle injuries, etc.), while 36-year old Brook was our healthiest starter, and 37-year old Al Horford is logging 32-minutes a night in the Conference Finals. Need to stop acting like any of us have any clue whether or not Dame/Giannis/Khris can hold up for a full playoff run. These last two postseasons have been an unpredictable war of attrition. It's a crapshoot.

Someone on here questioned during the first round, how the Pacers play that fast & sloppily without injury? Then Haliburton had back spasms, now his hamstring.

[fansinceforever]

I really want someone to explain to me how we patch up the glaring defensive holes we have literally everywhere on the court by moving Brook, Pat and Bobby. Some of you don't even want to touch that group.

Again, it has nothing to do with Khris Middleton. I believe he's our best chance at getting 2-3 rotation guys and hopefully 1-2 that can start or play 25+ minutes.

If you don't think Giannis and Dame are "playoff performers" then I don't know what to do with you.

Ive tossed out some ideas that, in my view, help us get into the territory of keeping up with the current contenders. Small, fringw moves won't get it done. If you think they will, I guess we're just seeing this team a lot differently.

I'll concede that we'll lose some playmaking but it is what it is.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

if we didnt have khris and another team did id try to use every available asset we have to acquire him. hes that perfect a fit between dame and giannis.

the fact he goes from allstar to superstar whenever one of them is out is a bonus.

i cant believe trading khris is still a thing here. i just cant believe it

[nagawicka]

Unfortunately it's all the same. Him having the ball in his hand is what he needs.. but it doesn't make wins. New philosophy and direction please.

Good insight but why do you keep bringing up $Khash$ Midds when the analysis of Giannis is so on the mark. Needs the ball in his hands, needs all the touches, puts up the numbers but doesn't get series wins, keeps mistaking big numbers + superhuman play doesn't translate without the baseline team play that delivers wins game after game.

I think you make a good point in that we have 3 guys that all work off rhythm and having the ball a lot and that can be problematic. I hope you see the difference between GA and KM though. Giannis drags 2-4 players in the paint with him and now half his damn team is wide open, plus he's drawing fouls and getting the other team in foul trouble. KM isn't doing either one of those things, just live or die on them 2 pointers. I hope you secretly know that and just wanted to jump in some convo.. it's fine, it's the offseason and quiet enough.

Nope . .. looking for some sort of distinction and the point holds better for Giannis. Midds consistently scored 22ppg game after game after game before G was drafted, wildly while we had star players AND after they left he did it on his own, while G was developing, after G hit stride, etc etc etc. Because he played within the team scheme, capitalized on team play (full-court passes to Giannis at the bucket were never Giannis plays, they were team/Midds plays. Midds can still be effective by maxing out that teamplay game.

[-Jragon-]

The teams that have the "talented parts are greater than the sum" mindset are all at home watching. Us, Clippers, Suns, Nets broke apart... The team has to blend and the talents need to compliment each other. They can't all need the ball and they can't all think they are the alpha dog and have power struggles.

There's a team out there that needs scoring badly and has 4 good defenders starting that would love to have Middleton in there fiddling and dropping them 2s.

Siakim doesn't really apply himself defensively anymore but they needed the scoring and have enough aggressive defenders to make it work so they made the trade.

We're the opposite. Dame made KM sort of redundant offensively in that they have similar skills and a need for the ball to stay engaged. We instead need the aggressive defenders now that have at least 1 offensive threat. These trades where we get several fast defenders doesn't actually make us a worse team from the aspect of "the sum is greater than the parts"

[soxperry]

The teams that have the "talented parts are greater than the sum" mindset are all at home watching. Us, Clippers, Suns, Nets broke apart... The team has to blend and the talents need to compliment each other. They can't all need the ball and they can't all think they are the alpha dog and have power struggles.

There's a team out there that needs scoring badly and has 4 good defenders starting that would love to have Middleton in there fiddling and dropping them 2s.

Siakim doesn't really apply himself defensively anymore but they needed the scoring and have enough aggressive defenders to make it work so they made the trade.

We're the opposite. Dame made KM sort of redundant offensively in that they have similar skills and a need for the ball to stay engaged. We instead need the aggressive defenders now that have at least 1 offensive threat. These trades where we get several fast defenders doesn't actually make us a worse team from the aspect of "the sum is greater than the parts"

i disagree with the premise but not with the suggestion. when the big three were healthy, they had the top net rating in the league. but because so much is tied up into those three players, we have little depth, and an injury to one of those guys really brings down our ceiling. if we trade Khris, it should be to reduce the effect that an injury to Khris or Dame has on our title chances. Certainly, GA going down is the end. But we should be able to survive round 1 and possibly round 2 if just Dame goes down. I think that should be the goal.