Bucks Offseason Thread - Trade, news, re-tool discussion

[0BobLobLaw0]

I think it's hard to believe that the Holidays will pass up over 100 million dollars over 4 years to not delay what they want to do, and have more means to do more of what they want to do.

[worthlessBucks]

Was listening to Hollinger and Duncan talk about who might trade lotto picks. Then they went into more detail on the 2nd apron.

This 2nd apron is going to be a major problem. The limits on trading draft picks and having your first rounder drop to the end of round one if you are over the apron 2 out of 4 years is a killer. Then the increased tax penalties.

I believe it means that if Khris Middleton doesn't agree to a deal starting at $30mm a year or less, they will let him walk. Or alternatively, the Jrue for the Scoot pick or for Orlando picks deal to shed salary comes into play.

I think one of those two guys is as good as gone, barring Middleton signing for a discount.

It’s the path they’ve boxed themselves in with unfortunately given the last few years worth of moves. I would move on from them both if the opportunity is there. Shed a ton of salary, snag a pick or two, and take gambles on youngish vets in the bargain bin. Giannis and 4 randoms off the street will win any coach 44+ games a year. Time to position themselves for a run with a new batch. Sentimentality out the window. Thanks for the contributions, it’s a business.

I hope Horst can be creative enough to really mix it up. Doubtful. The bucks draft history that was posted..quite sad.

[benultimate]

Talk Khris into opting in, flip him to NY for RJ and The Fourn Dog.

I'd need at least one 1st rounder thrown in (they have plenty). Because we're dealing with (1) RJ getting his sh*t together and (2) Fournier's horrible contract.

Youth, flexibility, slight restock of draft assets. But a downgrade in talent.

[AussieBuck]

I'd need 4 first round picks

[RiotPunch]

Just went back and watched both game 4 & 5 meltdowns for the first time since live. Absolutely criminal non-use of timeouts to stop the hemorrhaging, but there are also levels of stupid that no coach can cure. I still just cannot fathom rolling with Jrue next year as a primary ballhandler. I said it after the game and I still feel like I can never trust him again. He's a great player and I think you can get great value for him-- I would capitalize on that. All-Star, All-Defense, dream teammate, cash in and wish him well. He shrinks and loses his senses, has been bailed out by big shots and Giannis having the catch radius of a pterodactyl.

[machu46]

Just went back and watched both game 4 & 5 meltdowns for the first time since live. Absolutely criminal non-use of timeouts to stop the hemorrhaging, but there are also levels of stupid that no coach can cure. I still just cannot fathom rolling with Jrue next year as a primary ballhandler. I said it after the game and I still feel like I can never trust him again. He's a great player and I think you can get great value for him-- I would capitalize on that. All-Star, All-Defense, dream teammate, cash in and wish him well. He shrinks and loses his senses, has been bailed out by big shots and Giannis having the catch radius of a pterodactyl.

The lack of poise that we showed would have been unacceptable if we were a young team like OKC getting it’s first taste of the playoffs. The fact that we’re an old team that’s been there before and still looked that clueless is something no coach should have to deal with. Game 5 in particular was almost impossible to lose and we found a way.


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[Daver]

Just went back and watched both game 4 & 5 meltdowns for the first time since live. Absolutely criminal non-use of timeouts to stop the hemorrhaging, but there are also levels of stupid that no coach can cure. I still just cannot fathom rolling with Jrue next year as a primary ballhandler. I said it after the game and I still feel like I can never trust him again. He's a great player and I think you can get great value for him-- I would capitalize on that. All-Star, All-Defense, dream teammate, cash in and wish him well. He shrinks and loses his senses, has been bailed out by big shots and Giannis having the catch radius of a pterodactyl.

This sh.. all falls on horst blaming jrue for not being a good primary bsllhandler is insane.HES NOT A PG HE A 2 GUARD the fact hes been basically playing out of pisition since hes been here is the criminal part.Damn im sure if you asked him he would rather play the 2 my point is screw trading him move him to the 2 n somehow someway bring in a pg

[ABucksFan]

Just went back and watched both game 4 & 5 meltdowns for the first time since live. Absolutely criminal non-use of timeouts to stop the hemorrhaging, but there are also levels of stupid that no coach can cure. I still just cannot fathom rolling with Jrue next year as a primary ballhandler. I said it after the game and I still feel like I can never trust him again. He's a great player and I think you can get great value for him-- I would capitalize on that. All-Star, All-Defense, dream teammate, cash in and wish him well. He shrinks and loses his senses, has been bailed out by big shots and Giannis having the catch radius of a pterodactyl.

Respect, I can't put myself through hell...again...

[German Athens]

Just went back and watched both game 4 & 5 meltdowns for the first time since live. Absolutely criminal non-use of timeouts to stop the hemorrhaging, but there are also levels of stupid that no coach can cure. I still just cannot fathom rolling with Jrue next year as a primary ballhandler. I said it after the game and I still feel like I can never trust him again. He's a great player and I think you can get great value for him-- I would capitalize on that. All-Star, All-Defense, dream teammate, cash in and wish him well. He shrinks and loses his senses, has been bailed out by big shots and Giannis having the catch radius of a pterodactyl.

If harden leaves Philly, and then they aren’t interested in trading maxey, who would be your next top target in a Jrue trade?

[LuessiT]

Just went back and watched both game 4 & 5 meltdowns for the first time since live. Absolutely criminal non-use of timeouts to stop the hemorrhaging, but there are also levels of stupid that no coach can cure. I still just cannot fathom rolling with Jrue next year as a primary ballhandler. I said it after the game and I still feel like I can never trust him again. He's a great player and I think you can get great value for him-- I would capitalize on that. All-Star, All-Defense, dream teammate, cash in and wish him well. He shrinks and loses his senses, has been bailed out by big shots and Giannis having the catch radius of a pterodactyl.

I just don't think it's easy to bring a better ball handler in. Lillard will cost a leg and an arm (if Portland are at all willing to sell), has a gigantic contract that will sour quickly and also struggles in the availability department. CP3 is fading quickly, his availability is even more questionable and matching him would require us to give up a significant piece even if his trade value is low. FVV is one then one of the next best options, but he's out of contract (PO). Maybe you can convince him/Toronto to opt-in, trade and extend?

There's multiple options to me. Maybe the new coach figures a way to play better through Giannis. I still feel like we're not utilizing him well enough. Maybe we find a lesser player who can't break down a defense but is actually a good ball handler a la Tyus Jones, Marcus Smart, etc. Or maybe we roll on someone with the theoretical ability to create for himself and others, but who has not shown the consistency. That's maybe Poole (who put up big stats in Curry's absence as the primary handler). Or Sexton (although I'm really low on small PGs).

[machu46]

Just went back and watched both game 4 & 5 meltdowns for the first time since live. Absolutely criminal non-use of timeouts to stop the hemorrhaging, but there are also levels of stupid that no coach can cure. I still just cannot fathom rolling with Jrue next year as a primary ballhandler. I said it after the game and I still feel like I can never trust him again. He's a great player and I think you can get great value for him-- I would capitalize on that. All-Star, All-Defense, dream teammate, cash in and wish him well. He shrinks and loses his senses, has been bailed out by big shots and Giannis having the catch radius of a pterodactyl.

I just don't think it's easy to bring a better ball handler in. Lillard will cost a leg and an arm (if Portland are at all willing to sell), has a gigantic contract that will sour quickly and also struggles in the availability department. CP3 is fading quickly, his availability is even more questionable and matching him would require us to give up a significant piece even if his trade value is low. FVV is one then one of the next best options, but he's out of contract (PO). Maybe you can convince him/Toronto to opt-in, trade and extend?

There's multiple options to me. Maybe the new coach figures a way to play better through Giannis. I still feel like we're not utilizing him well enough. Maybe we find a lesser player who can't break down a defense but is actually a good ball handler a la Tyus Jones, Marcus Smart, etc. Or maybe we roll on someone with the theoretical ability to create for himself and others, but who has not shown the consistency. That's maybe Poole (who put up big stats in Curry's absence as the primary handler). Or Sexton (although I'm really low on small PGs).

The issue with someone like Tyus Jones is that he’s not really enough of a scoring threat to really want him handling the ball a ton. Tyus replacing Jrue would just mean more Giannis and Khris ball handling IMO.

Likewise with Smart. Sexton is enough of a scoring threat but probably not the playmaker you want. There’s a world in which Poole could be but he’s probably as likely if not more likely than Jrue to turn it over and he’s obviously in a different stratosphere defensively.

If we’re trying to get better next season (rather than taking a step back while getting younger), I think the key is adding a ball handler like Tyus Jones while keeping Jrue, Khris, and Giannis. That would allow each of them to pick their spots more and have someone like Jones on the floor with them that they’d trust to make smart decisions.


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[raferfenix]

If we do an opt-in and trade for FVV, what falling actions do we see on the cap front?

Do the Bucks cash out VanVleet while retaining Middleton and / or Lopez?

If we trade Bobby for Fred then losing BroLo would be even tougher.

Either way the new apron restrictions could come into the calculus. Middleton is the biggest risk / reward question on that front, particularly if we’d be losing him for nothing.

[LuessiT]

The issue with someone like Tyus Jones is that he’s not really enough of a scoring threat to really want him handling the ball a ton. Tyus replacing Jrue would just mean more Giannis and Khris ball handling IMO.

Likewise with Smart. Sexton is enough of a scoring threat but probably not the playmaker you want. There’s a world in which Poole could be but he’s probably as likely if not more likely than Jrue to turn it over and he’s obviously in a different stratosphere defensively.

If we’re trying to get better next season (rather than taking a step back while getting younger), I think the key is adding a ball handler like Tyus Jones while keeping Jrue, Khris, and Giannis. That would allow each of them to pick their spots more and have someone like Jones on the floor with them that they’d trust to make smart decisions.

I do agree with the premise, but we're struggling to match contracts. The contracts (contracts, not players) I'd mostly happily give up are Middleton's (because the uncertainty of his next contract) and Jrue's (because of the retirement stuff) but they're our best players after Giannis. Then we have Bobby, who should have tremendous value around the league so in terms of trade value I value him much more than FVV/Tyus/Smart/etc..
That's why I think it has to be something around Middleton or Jrue. And getting anything out of Middleton right now is favorable to me.

[pifhluk23]

Is there any scenario where we can get a legit ballhandling guard that can shoot 3s without trading Middleton or Holiday? Lopez I'm eh on, I think we could throw Portis in there and not lose much tbh.

[Xanadu]

How about a trade with NY for IQ and Toppin for Middleton. I seem to recall some people being really high on IQ. Idk haven't seen enough of either to get a real feel for their value to NY.

[German Athens]

Is there any scenario where we can get a legit ballhandling guard that can shoot 3s without trading Middleton or Holiday? Lopez I'm eh on, I think we could throw Portis in there and not lose much tbh.

Rozier, but he’s by no means a true point.

[Ron Swanson]

Is there any scenario where we can get a legit ballhandling guard that can shoot 3s without trading Middleton or Holiday? Lopez I'm eh on, I think we could throw Portis in there and not lose much tbh.

Plenty of options if you put Bobby/Grayson/Pat/Marjon all on the table.

Van Vleet (if he opts-in)
Chris Paul
Terry Rozier
Jordan Clarkson
Buddy Hield
Monte Morris

[raferfenix]

Portis + Allen for FVV or Rozier works under the cap.

If Haslem is infusing enough cash where we also extend Middleton (and keep Brook) is the big question.

Plan could be to lock in Khris’ salary slot and consider a trade at the 2024 draft. I’m not clear how hamstrung we’d be by the 2nd apron at that point is the new variable.

[Xanadu]

I am also starting to warm to the idea of Simons for Middleton straight up. Jrue stays for his D and Simons gives you a legit end of game shot creator. Then try and package Allen with others for a decent 3 and D wing. Maybe Marjon depending on how far away the FO thinks he is from contributing.

[GoldenAntlers]

Someone remind me why Philly would get rid of Maxey. Because they won't.